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Moonwalk

(2,322 posts)

27. Yes, they were Christians, but the problem with this argument from Fundies is....

Sun Apr 15, 2012, 12:58 PM

Apr 2012

that the founding fathers wanted separation of church and state BECAUSE they were Christians of different denominations. They weren't worried about the U.S. becoming taken over by Jews, Islamics or Atheists. They were almost ALL Christian--and that's the point. They didn't want one group of Christians delegating to the rest how to worship. They saw other countries where one Church had enormous power, be it the Catholic Church or the Anglican Church and they didn't want that.

So they wisely--and for their own good--made sure that the government was secular, not any one denomination of Christianity. So that all member of all denominations could participate in it, be equal and not excluded. This is very clear in most of their writings. However much they praise god, or pray or go to Church, when it comes to the government, they don't want it to be run by any one church or any one faith.

As I say in another post here about Washington: I think it incorrect to argue that these men were not "Christians," but I think it equally incorrect to assume that just because they were "Christians" that they wanted their nation to be a "Christian" nation with laws and morals and such favoring that religion over others. They very clearly in their writings wanted men of all faiths to be treated equally, but also really did want there to be a separation of church and state.

When we get into discussions about the founding fathers, I think it's important to avoid this argument that they "were not Christians." It doesn't work or hold up. What does work and hold up is to admit they were Christians--and YET they did not want their nation to be a Christian nation. And if they, as Christians, saw wisdom in that, how can Christians now defy and object to it? Either the "Christian" founding fathers knew what they were doing and we should listen to them, or they don't and you can't use them to argue this as a Christian nation.

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Our founding fathers were not Christians. [View all] RKP5637 Apr 2012 OP

You can beat fundies over the head with this,.... lastlib Apr 2012 #1

Yep, all logic and truth fails with fundies ... best to just write them off as prehistoric. n/t RKP5637 Apr 2012 #2

This is a zero sum game for many on both sides. Kaleva Apr 2012 #3

Yes, BOTH sides are equally impervious to evidence MNBrewer Apr 2012 #12

Yep Kaleva Apr 2012 #15

that's the impression i get from this thread. HiPointDem Apr 2012 #37

oh frickin' please. cali Apr 2012 #4

1797 Treaty of Tripoli hobbit709 Apr 2012 #9

Did you actually read the writings of Madison and John Adams JDPriestly Apr 2012 #17

Fundamentalism hadn't been invented when the forefathers signed the Constistuition. kwassa Apr 2012 #20

I have read Jefferson's correspondence with Adams on this issue JDPriestly Apr 2012 #35

Priestly invented soda water. kwassa Apr 2012 #63

From your link Major Nikon Apr 2012 #24

Actually, George Washington was quite religious and certainly Christian.... Moonwalk Apr 2012 #26

George Washington never identified himself as a Christian Major Nikon Apr 2012 #28

You are trying to define yourself to victory, and that... Moonwalk Apr 2012 #30

You keep ignoring what I wrote and instead wish to debate what I didn't write Major Nikon Apr 2012 #31

the Creator vs. the Christians freefaller62 Apr 2012 #33

Many of the founding fathers were either deists or were very sympathetic to deism Major Nikon Apr 2012 #39

Ethan Allen for example flamingdem Apr 2012 #66

and yet hamilton insisted his wife should believe in God. HiPointDem Apr 2012 #38

Belief in god does not make one a Christian Major Nikon Apr 2012 #40

do you think the god he wanted her to believe in was something other than the christian god? HiPointDem Apr 2012 #41

Hamilton was married in 1780 Major Nikon Apr 2012 #43

all your "guesses" are predictated on your own faith, and must be taken on faith. HiPointDem Apr 2012 #44

Excuse me Major Nikon Apr 2012 #48

I think that's an overreaction. Maybe I was trying to be too clever in phrasing, but all I meant HiPointDem Apr 2012 #50

They were Deists underpants Apr 2012 #56

Jefferson was not a Christian in the usual meaning of the word. eomer Apr 2012 #25

in private letters Jefferson refers to himself as "Christian" (1803),[2] "a sect by myself" (1819), HiPointDem Apr 2012 #42

That's why I said it the way I did. eomer Apr 2012 #45

what's the usual meaning of the word? in my world, "christian" refers to anyone from the fundie HiPointDem Apr 2012 #46

It's not a "stupid" distinction to those who push the meme. eomer Apr 2012 #47

But the faith of the fathers is irrelevant. What's relevant is their faith in separation of church HiPointDem Apr 2012 #49

It's not irrelevant - it is one of the lies they use in their campaign to establish a religion. eomer Apr 2012 #52

It's not worth debunking when it's an unwinnable pissing match that distracts from publicizing HiPointDem Apr 2012 #61

I think it is worthwhile to point this out to people who claim that Jefferson was a Christian... eomer Apr 2012 #68

You are defining a Christian as a follower of Christ. In that sense, many deists would be JDPriestly Apr 2012 #64

Jefferson, Washington, Franklin, Thomas Paine, Monroe, Madison, Adams, Hamilton.... any questions? underpants Apr 2012 #57

Five founders who were skeptical of organized Christianity and couldn't be elected today! yortsed snacilbuper Apr 2012 #5

How does one break the faith argument? longship Apr 2012 #6

This comes to mind, "The God Spot," but I certainly doubt it will bring RKP5637 Apr 2012 #10

Not sure of the neurology on that longship Apr 2012 #11

actually, there is, it's called the God Nodule and it's a specific cerebral locus. nebenaube Apr 2012 #59

Okay. longship Apr 2012 #60

Please Define "Fundamentalist" freefaller62 Apr 2012 #34

Now you are making a strictly rhetorical argument longship Apr 2012 #51

Religion vs. Governmental Philosophy freefaller62 Apr 2012 #53

That is the crux of the problem longship Apr 2012 #62

The prohibition against murder and theft is not unique to the Christian and Jewish religions. JDPriestly Apr 2012 #65

Well the Bill of Rights/parts of constitution were borrowed from Iroquois confederacy - not Kashkakat v.2.0 Apr 2012 #7

No, they weren't Spider Jerusalem Apr 2012 #8

It's both from common law but influenced by the Iroquois form of government as JDPriestly Apr 2012 #18

No, it wasn't Spider Jerusalem Apr 2012 #19

That's a feel-good popular myth with no factual basis. Odin2005 Apr 2012 #13

No use trying to reason with religious people. Odin2005 Apr 2012 #14

Yep, it's just a lost cause. Also, "if" they had divine knowledge with a capital T, many of RKP5637 Apr 2012 #16

Most forms of organized religion require one to abandon reason Major Nikon Apr 2012 #29

Thank You For Posting This. Left Coast2020 Apr 2012 #21

Thank you! I'm pleased you're finding it helpful! RKP5637 Apr 2012 #22

Why does it sadden you? Daniel537 Apr 2012 #54

And even if they were they were not in favor of having an official national church. They were for jwirr Apr 2012 #23

Yes, they were Christians, but the problem with this argument from Fundies is.... Moonwalk Apr 2012 #27

No, they weren't Christians Major Nikon Apr 2012 #32

+1 HiPointDem Apr 2012 #36

Jefferson and Adams did not believe in the divinity of Christ. Read their correspondence. JDPriestly Apr 2012 #67

Well, Jefferson owned hundreds of slaves and enjoyed raping the female ones. Nye Bevan Apr 2012 #55

Many were christians TNLib Apr 2012 #58