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HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)

61. Understanding how it happened and being empathetic

Sat Oct 18, 2014, 09:03 AM

Oct 2014

is fine. This really shouldn't be about blame in the first place.

At the same time, it's clear to everyone that concerns about travel by folks with developing infections is a very real risk factor when considering infections in American health workers vs poor patients in west Africa, or for that matter, just average working class folks living in Dallas.

Differences between populations must be expected and when learned taken into account, considered by people with the educations and experience to suggest expert reasoned responses to what is learned.

With respect to the statistical probabilities of risk, nothing has changed, the high risk population is exactly what might be expected. The course of infections has been as projected. But, Americans expected something different. They expected their health care system to function perfectly and effectively. The tragedy in Dallas THP hospital gave the nation an "aw, shit!" moment.

American's understanding of factors that -might- effect how well ebola is managed in US hospitals and it's potential for movement around the nation has now very much changed. American's are uncomfortable with that. Confidence has been shaken.

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I'm a nurse and I've possibly been exposed to Ebola and I think I maybe should be quarantined [View all] Fumesucker Oct 2014 OP

This is a brilliant post. KMOD Oct 2014 #1

I don't blame the nurse for flying. If she can be blamed for anything it is for putting trust in the Warren DeMontague Oct 2014 #2

Who ~do~ we listen to then? Fumesucker Oct 2014 #3

I thoroughly enjoyed Kevin Spacey's performance as him in "Recount" Warren DeMontague Oct 2014 #5

How is he going to answer any questions except, I'll get back to you on that"? Fumesucker Oct 2014 #6

I strongly suspect you're right, but I am willing to wait and see. Warren DeMontague Oct 2014 #7

What the interesting subtext of this little situation with the nurses is... Fumesucker Oct 2014 #9

I suspect people want to feel like it is contained geographically, that's part of it. Warren DeMontague Oct 2014 #10

There was *zero* complaint about them working, none, nada, zip, zilch Fumesucker Oct 2014 #12

Texas Presbyterian acted completely irresponsibly. MoonRiver Oct 2014 #44

Never heard anything from the CDC or Texas health authorities either Fumesucker Oct 2014 #45

The irresponsibility and incompetence demonstrated by literally everybody MoonRiver Oct 2014 #47

the good news is that the locals have figured it out for themselves magical thyme Oct 2014 #55

I can just imagine the staff trying to get new positions.. Fumesucker Oct 2014 #59

From where I sit, unless there's a sea change, the people who actually did fuck up, i.e., KingCharlemagne Oct 2014 #117

The only "consolation" I suppose you could say - would be - calimary Oct 2014 #148

I think Texas Presbyterian is a non-profit hospital, part of a larger holding group that KingCharlemagne Oct 2014 #153

And that's what has to change. calimary Oct 2014 #171

No one - Marx and Lenin included - ever said the transition to socialism KingCharlemagne Oct 2014 #180

Well, it's always better to try to remain optimistic. calimary Oct 2014 #191

I would assume that the hospital might face some law suits that could cost them a bit of money and jwirr Oct 2014 #160

That's why it's vital for Texas to elect Abbott as Governor, so that those who were harmed KingCharlemagne Oct 2014 #168

Public awareness. Yes,they seemed to care more about it as public reactions than public health issue suffragette Oct 2014 #126

And, ironically, the nurses are the only ones whom have contracted Ebola Proud Liberal Dem Oct 2014 #107

the nurses were exposed right up to the bitter end, when the virus takes completely magical thyme Oct 2014 #161

Link to an article Ms. Toad Oct 2014 #138

Her superiors were unaware that she and all the others were still working? Fumesucker Oct 2014 #145

I have not seen confirmation one way or the other Ms. Toad Oct 2014 #166

You would think the people who dealt directly with Mr Duncan are hot properties for interviews Fumesucker Oct 2014 #169

I notice you have still not provided a link supporting your assertion that they were still working. Ms. Toad Oct 2014 #173

You're right, I don't have any absolute proof, spent a while looking and just decided to fly with it Fumesucker Oct 2014 #179

I'm not excusing anyone - Ms. Toad Oct 2014 #186

This message was self-deleted by its author riderinthestorm Oct 2014 #210

its here in this thread riderinthestorm Oct 2014 #208

Thanks. Ms. Toad Oct 2014 #211

Agreed. I was just answering your question to Fumesucker riderinthestorm Oct 2014 #212

That, I don't buy. Ms. Toad Oct 2014 #214

^=== This. Heaven help me, I am dealing with it now. IdaBriggs Oct 2014 #46

"The Great and Powerful Oz has got matters well in hand - I hope" Crunchy Frog Oct 2014 #57

Well, the best manager I ever worked for wasn't a technical expert, but he WAS MH1 Oct 2014 #87

Exactly! nt Mojorabbit Oct 2014 #167

'I'm not a scientist' should work ... GeorgeGist Oct 2014 #205

Yes yes yes! Dorian Gray Oct 2014 #50

This message was self-deleted by its author ann--- Oct 2014 #76

And an ethical girl! MoonRiver Oct 2014 #86

from what I've read, they are both WOMEN, not girls. kath Oct 2014 #96

Definitions are for dumbcat Oct 2014 #97

Infantilizing language is acceptable for women. Gormy Cuss Oct 2014 #99

God, yes laundry_queen Oct 2014 #116

You'll have to have a word with my 80-something mother. Comrade Grumpy Oct 2014 #140

First off, it's different for equals to use juvenile terms among themselves to describe themselves. Gormy Cuss Oct 2014 #182

Yes, they are both women. MoonRiver Oct 2014 #100

The cruise ship (floating petri dish) is almost worse than the flight imo... pipoman Oct 2014 #4

I have a hard time thinking of a legal job more physically intimate than a nurse Fumesucker Oct 2014 #8

The answer to your question is that capitalism doesn't really care about the lives of KingCharlemagne Oct 2014 #119

i may have been too young to get Quincy w/ jack klugman, but even i would have been pansypoo53219 Oct 2014 #11

Why when you're still working? Fumesucker Oct 2014 #13

I'm so glad this virus isn't *easily* transmissible renate Oct 2014 #14

In that case anyone not naturally immune would have been dead for a few decades now Fumesucker Oct 2014 #17

You are right about the tickets ArcticFox Oct 2014 #111

Why are you so dedicated to defending this woman's selfish/idiotic actions? LostInAnomie Oct 2014 #15

Then she shouldn't have been caring for patients Fumesucker Oct 2014 #16

What apologetics? LostInAnomie Oct 2014 #18

No the flying, just like treating patients was approved Fumesucker Oct 2014 #19

I had a thought that it's as basic as safe cooking woodsprite Oct 2014 #88

for her and her union? ArcticFox Oct 2014 #118

The "authorities" are not responsible for EVERYTHING treestar Oct 2014 #95

She obeyed authority, did what they said she should do and then what they said she could do Fumesucker Oct 2014 #121

No one has to follow authority slavishly treestar Oct 2014 #196

She wasn't caring for patients while sick elias7 Oct 2014 #139

Her first flight she was feeling well Fumesucker Oct 2014 #142

The personal attacks on this woman are what should stop. Live and Learn Oct 2014 #20

She was following CDC guidelines. She called to check. Yo_Mama Oct 2014 #67

She should be expected to know more than her employer or the CDC? Crunchy Frog Oct 2014 #72

I agree Evergreen Emerald Oct 2014 #130

The CDC told her she could fly. What higher authority do you want, God? moriah Oct 2014 #202

This is such garbage. She made a decision NOT to purchase travel insurance for those tickets mnhtnbb Oct 2014 #21

Are you in the travel insurance industry by chance? Fumesucker Oct 2014 #22

No. In fact, I'm a retired hospital administrator married to an MD who is scared mnhtnbb Oct 2014 #31

To be fair none of us know what the future will bring Fumesucker Oct 2014 #33

My sympathies are with her, too. mnhtnbb Oct 2014 #49

Phrases that should not be used while making conclusions: 'my hunch is that' and 'I imagine she' Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #51

And your point is? mnhtnbb Oct 2014 #54

yes, please stop the speculation ArcticFox Oct 2014 #131

Simpler for the hospital just to fire those who won't do it Fumesucker Oct 2014 #53

The employees were told not to talk to the media. That is not unusual. mnhtnbb Oct 2014 #58

Can you explain to me then why the nurses were still working up until Vinson's flight drew attention Fumesucker Oct 2014 #60

I am not--and if you look at my posts for the last few days have never--defended the hospital. mnhtnbb Oct 2014 #90

I didn't intend to accuse you of anything in that post Fumesucker Oct 2014 #112

All I can do is speculate about the challenges faced by nursing admins in staffing mnhtnbb Oct 2014 #146

Thank you.. Fumesucker Oct 2014 #155

oh, that's important ArcticFox Oct 2014 #133

Allow me to restate your position (with which I agree 1000%) as simply as possible: KingCharlemagne Oct 2014 #123

This is not my conversation, please excuse the insert, but vanlassie Oct 2014 #74

Superior attitude? What a bunch of malarkey. mnhtnbb Oct 2014 #84

Yes, we all make decisions based on finances. vanlassie Oct 2014 #89

I have never criticized her decision not to purchase travel insurance. I simply offered the mnhtnbb Oct 2014 #91

"She was going to make the trip because it was vanlassie Oct 2014 #94

+Infinity. If there's one thing I despise even more than Republicans, it's self-satisfied KingCharlemagne Oct 2014 #124

The bigger offense is implying she was making the decision based on money loss!!! lunasun Oct 2014 #172

+10000 vanlassie Oct 2014 #177

lol - this is a new low. nt TBF Oct 2014 #68

Why should she have needed 'travel insurance' if she had called the airlines to tell them sabrina 1 Oct 2014 #175

This is what happened to me... ReRe Oct 2014 #23

I don't disagree with you, the nurse should have been quarantined Fumesucker Oct 2014 #25

I agree... ReRe Oct 2014 #41

I think she made a foolish and very dangerous choice. MoonRiver Oct 2014 #24

Was her working also a "foolish and dangerous choice"? Fumesucker Oct 2014 #26

I'm just talking about how I would have handled the situation. MoonRiver Oct 2014 #29

Your bringing up "would she have been fired" is a complete straw man. WinkyDink Oct 2014 #36

The nurses had to go through the national union to speak up about what was going on there Fumesucker Oct 2014 #42

A 'complete straw man'? Had she failed to report for a KingCharlemagne Oct 2014 #127

Would not have happened..here's why SoCalDem Oct 2014 #134

Well, as it happens, you're the one who is wrong. The nurses at this particular KingCharlemagne Oct 2014 #137

Look, the nurse on the cruise ship acted like a normal human being. Shrike47 Oct 2014 #27

I think most of these "holier than thou" types would have done just the same thing Fumesucker Oct 2014 #28

she quit being a "normal human being" when she was told to isolate & monitor SoCalDem Oct 2014 #149

This message was self-deleted by its author Tumbulu Oct 2014 #207

please just do what you think fits lalabetsy Oct 2014 #30

I'm wondering why we are taking Amber Vinson's word for that alleged call. WinkyDink Oct 2014 #32

I like how everyone ignores the fact the Ebola exposed nurses had been working Fumesucker Oct 2014 #34

I don't understand your sentence: "had been working." What? I mean, isn't that the point? WinkyDink Oct 2014 #35

Up until the travel brouhaha the nurses had continued with their dail lives, including work.. Fumesucker Oct 2014 #39

Yes but no one reported feeling sick elias7 Oct 2014 #144

Yes, they may or may not have been exposed Fumesucker Oct 2014 #152

I don't care who they worked with except under 2 conditions. uppityperson Oct 2014 #176

The CDC has confirmed that she checked, yes. Yo_Mama Oct 2014 #81

I think I read that the CDC (or TX Dept. of Health) confirmed that she had called but KingCharlemagne Oct 2014 #125

This was confirmed by CDC. LisaL Oct 2014 #143

The CDC confirmed that she called them. Chemisse Oct 2014 #163

I'm a former nurse mgardener54 Oct 2014 #37

Would you also have not cared for patients during this period? Fumesucker Oct 2014 #40

About 15 years ago one of my patients came down with mumps 2 days after I saw her newfie11 Oct 2014 #38

Right, but mumps is a highly contagious airborne disease so the guidelines are different. Yo_Mama Oct 2014 #77

Chill out honey newfie11 Oct 2014 #197

you go above and contact the CDC. This is analogous to an employer telling an employee to do still_one Oct 2014 #43

No one has said that anyone objected to the travel plans Fumesucker Oct 2014 #48

I can't believe that anyone who has to work for a living is allowing her to KingCharlemagne Oct 2014 #128

She did that. CDC said she had no exposure. Yo_Mama Oct 2014 #66

As I posted before... Lars39 Oct 2014 #52

Was she also not supposed to err on the side of caution by refusing to go to work? Fumesucker Oct 2014 #56

What are sick leave policies for health care workers? Downwinder Oct 2014 #65

What is this "sick leave" of which you speak? Fumesucker Oct 2014 #69

Sick leave should be available for any worker that comes Downwinder Oct 2014 #73

Yes it should.. Fumesucker Oct 2014 #79

I thought we learned something from the 1918 flu pandemic. Downwinder Oct 2014 #82

We started dismantling our public health infrastructure in the 70s. Warren Stupidity Oct 2014 #204

I don't know what the sick leave policies are at her hospital... DeadLetterOffice Oct 2014 #78

American capitalism is fucked up. Health care delivery is part of that capitalism. Otherwise, spot KingCharlemagne Oct 2014 #129

No, she should not have been assigned other patients, ie gone into work. Lars39 Oct 2014 #85

And besides, it's so much more fun to beat up on a helpless individual than a faceless bureaucracy Fumesucker Oct 2014 #115

Sorry, that's not going to fly with me....Both the system and she was at fault. Lars39 Oct 2014 #181

Yes, we should all ignore expert instructions for Common Sense Fumesucker Oct 2014 #183

So what you are saying is that she "was just following orders". Lars39 Oct 2014 #184

Understanding how it happened and being empathetic HereSince1628 Oct 2014 #61

This message was self-deleted by its author ann--- Oct 2014 #83

Ann, you continue to nail this situation! MoonRiver Oct 2014 #98

Who is doing that? Fumesucker Oct 2014 #102

The "system" failed her and all of us. MoonRiver Oct 2014 #105

No other person even questioned them continuing to work Fumesucker Oct 2014 #106

Maybe, unless she has infected somebody. MoonRiver Oct 2014 #114

To the hospital (and to American captialism writ large), Nurse Vinson was a disposable KingCharlemagne Oct 2014 #132

It isn't clear to me if it's the same people screaming, but yes, there are people HereSince1628 Oct 2014 #108

In retrospect I'm pretty sure Turbineguy Oct 2014 #62

You've been told you're gtg...head on out. ileus Oct 2014 #63

Thank you for the rationality and the decency Yo_Mama Oct 2014 #64

I've been through several eye-opening events on DU Fumesucker Oct 2014 #71

Yes, but HCW also acquire a strong determination to avert unnecessary disease and death Yo_Mama Oct 2014 #80

Nurse Vinson did us a huge, huge favor and is getting figuratively burned at the stake for it Fumesucker Oct 2014 #109

"Blame the individual" is always the first TBF Oct 2014 #70

This message was self-deleted by its author ann--- Oct 2014 #75

Why public transportation only? Fumesucker Oct 2014 #103

It wasn't right for her to be caring for immune compromised patients. MoonRiver Oct 2014 #110

Her superiors bear no responsibility for forcing her to work? Fumesucker Oct 2014 #113

I am definitely NOT exonerating them. MoonRiver Oct 2014 #120

She could have stayed home and been the person Downwinder Oct 2014 #198

This message was self-deleted by its author ann--- Oct 2014 #147

You have completely missed the point of the OP. If Nurse Vinson was such a threat by KingCharlemagne Oct 2014 #136

Good post, but it's stupidity all around. MH1 Oct 2014 #92

In Ohio, where pay is low and cost of living is low, Erich Bloodaxe BSN Oct 2014 #93

She had recently moved to another state Fumesucker Oct 2014 #104

Anyone who can take a vacation can afford to take a few weeks off? Really. TheKentuckian Oct 2014 #135

It's like the "reverse socialism' we saw during the Financial Crisis of 2008-09 when KingCharlemagne Oct 2014 #141

I expect my fellow licensed professionals Erich Bloodaxe BSN Oct 2014 #150

No, what you expect is for wage earners to eat it to cover screw ups by administrations TheKentuckian Oct 2014 #162

If, by 'wage earners' Erich Bloodaxe BSN Oct 2014 #174

What you expect is for working people to give up the fruits of their labor and/or earned benefits TheKentuckian Oct 2014 #190

That's the insidious nature of ebola... TeeYiYi Oct 2014 #101

lol :) n/t KMOD Oct 2014 #122

absolutely, so sick of the blame the victim crap i see on other sites pitohui Oct 2014 #151

You could say, "It's a feature, not a bug (npi)" - nt KingCharlemagne Oct 2014 #154

Other sites? Fumesucker Oct 2014 #158

This may be the best thread I've read on DU since joining during KingCharlemagne Oct 2014 #156

During the Polio Epidemic in the 50s only the families that actually had the disease were actually jwirr Oct 2014 #157

I had polio ... GeorgeGist Oct 2014 #206

Did you by any chance live in a city? I was in a rural area. That may have been the difference. As jwirr Oct 2014 #213

The settings are not equal. Sweet Freedom Oct 2014 #159

Would you be comfortable with being nursed by one of the Ebola exposed staff? Fumesucker Oct 2014 #164

Nope Sweet Freedom Oct 2014 #199

Well said! Lars39 Oct 2014 #185

If the nurse doesn't have symptoms, she is not contagious. Period. Chemisse Oct 2014 #165

Exactly. If she was traveling and got Sx, stop. If she was working, got sx, stop. If she was at the uppityperson Oct 2014 #178

And if she was on a cruise ship in the middle of the ocean? LisaL Oct 2014 #187

Did you read my post or just the title? uppityperson Oct 2014 #189

Indeed. And a cruise ship would not be a good place to be if symptoms did start. Chemisse Oct 2014 #194

So if she is sitting on the plane at that time, how do you propose she "stopped." LisaL Oct 2014 #188

I could be wrong, but I don't think the symptoms come on all of a sudden in a particular moment. Chemisse Oct 2014 #195

Well, if you don't know the exact moment you get the symptoms, then how are you going to stop LisaL Oct 2014 #209

Someone here posted hcw exposed should be fired for not making their own decisions . My reply lunasun Oct 2014 #170

Hhmmm... donco Oct 2014 #192

I call that the definition of selfish. MoonRiver Oct 2014 #193

I'm a nurse and I took the Nightingale Pledge. Avalux Oct 2014 #200

Some evilDUers think lots of workers aren't actually people, IronLionZion Oct 2014 #201

I am a working registered nurse as well working ing a hospital FloridaBlues Oct 2014 #203