General Discussion

MADem

(135,425 posts)

61. Sure--he was dragged, kicking and screaming, to the place where he saw the point of emancipation.

Sun Apr 15, 2012, 11:24 PM

Apr 2012

He's not pure as the driven snow, not by a long shot. He's an imperfect person who was a product of his bigoted and often mean-spirited times. He did do the right thing. That's good. He took a bullet for doing it, and that's unfortunate.

Look at Thomas Jefferson's personal behavior, and contrast that with his high minded words.

I haven't read any in-depth biographies of Lincoln in recent years, but I have read bios of other founding fathers as well as more contemporary leaders. They aren't the one-dimensional saints-on-earth that we learn about in simplistic fashion in grammar school.

The reality is much muckier. Hell, look at how contemporary Republicans STILL treat women and minorities! They'll go down in history, too--but not in a good way.

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Abraham Lincoln WTF? [View all] Tx4obama Apr 2012 OP

From The Debates With Douglas, Ma'am The Magistrate Apr 2012 #1

It's hardly a handy fact readily broadcast. rug Apr 2012 #4

Those Debates, Sir, Are A Major Part Of Lincoln's Political Life The Magistrate Apr 2012 #7

The debates are well-known; the racist views less-known. rug Apr 2012 #14

He Was Still In Advance Of Judge Douglas On The Question, Sir The Magistrate Apr 2012 #21

He was also more advanced than Jefferson Davis but that wasn't the topic. rug Apr 2012 #26

Since They Are Not Hidden, Sir, Then On Your Showing There Is Nothing To Discuss The Magistrate Apr 2012 #31

I do not call Lincoln's racism "Nothing To Discuss". rug Apr 2012 #34

You Can Call It A Double-Burger With Cheese, Sir, For All The Difference It Would Make To Me The Magistrate Apr 2012 #58

You called it nothing, not a double cheeseburger. rug Apr 2012 #63

And Both 'Nothing' And 'Double Cheeseburger', Sir, Plug The Same Hole In Sentence Structure The Magistrate Apr 2012 #67

No it hasn't. rug Apr 2012 #74

Never Found Cheese-Burgers To My Taste, Sir The Magistrate Apr 2012 #75

You crossed mine midway through your second post. rug Apr 2012 #82

You seem to have difficulty following a logical argument (including, apparently, your own)... regnaD kciN Apr 2012 #85

They thought women voting was as likely as pigs flying, it was "accepted" that women gave up all MADem Apr 2012 #69

Exactly. I've known this since my American History classes in high school, if not before... regnaD kciN Apr 2012 #84

Pick up a book now and then sharp_stick Apr 2012 #9

At what grade were you or your children first taught Lincoln's racist views? rug Apr 2012 #20

By the standards of that time, Lincoln was not much of a racist treestar Apr 2012 #44

By the standards of this time, his views were racist. rug Apr 2012 #52

Because his views pale in significance to his actions and achievements. Codeine Apr 2012 #70

You're engaging in the sin of 'presentism,' i.e., judging the past by the coalition_unwilling Apr 2012 #98

It was so ingrained, it was not noticed, and something like the Lincoln quotes treestar Apr 2012 #125

Everything is known treestar Apr 2012 #123

Lincoln's beliefs regarding "negroes" is well-known among rusty fender Apr 2012 #113

I've never met an even vaguely educated person who was unaware of Codeine Apr 2012 #17

How many of the vaguely educated persons you met consider "the complexities of his personal views" rug Apr 2012 #22

All of them. Codeine Apr 2012 #30

The point is that his racist views are not widely known. Why? rug Apr 2012 #36

But. . . they ARE widely known! Codeine Apr 2012 #38

We're arguing anecdotes here. Data is required. rug Apr 2012 #55

I learned this in high school. Codeine Apr 2012 #65

perhaps his virtues are far more important than his vices hfojvt Apr 2012 #78

Well you don't seem to need much data to form an assumption Rex Apr 2012 #117

Yes. The point is that they ARE widely known... regnaD kciN Apr 2012 #89

Christ! I hope you never find out pscot Apr 2012 #39

His views on race have more impact, even today, than his mother's dog. rug Apr 2012 #56

His views on race are really insignificant. Codeine Apr 2012 #73

Lincoln's views on race, which are racist, are insignificant? Really insignificant? rug Apr 2012 #79

Damn right, they're insignificant! regnaD kciN Apr 2012 #91

To a great extent they are insignificant. whopis01 Apr 2012 #126

I agree we don't need more historical revisionism, ZombieHorde Apr 2012 #120

This message was self-deleted by its author closeupready Apr 2012 #71

Moreover, it was absolutely necessary to make such remarks to be politically violable in that race. pnorman Apr 2012 #47

True Enough, Sir The Magistrate Apr 2012 #59

Should come as a shock to many Republicans though... WhoIsNumberNone Apr 2012 #88

I don't know why this would be surprising. Ruby the Liberal Apr 2012 #2

he *was* a Republican NoMoreWarNow Apr 2012 #3

He was also a vampire hunter. randome Apr 2012 #6

And he was known to party-on with Bill & Ted. Iggo Apr 2012 #16

The man did get around, didn't he? eShirl Apr 2012 #110

Here's the letters alfredo Apr 2012 #29

Which is why you should pay attention to what they DO, no matter what they say. aquart Apr 2012 #5

Same (O.P.) can be said of MADISON, LBJ (see thread on MADISON/his slaves by xchrom) UTUSN Apr 2012 #57

Did you not go to school? sharp_stick Apr 2012 #8

Why are you making this personal? The subject line and article is from another website Tx4obama Apr 2012 #10

I went to school in the '70s Art_from_Ark Apr 2012 #86

yep datasuspect Apr 2012 #121

19th century man held 19th century racial attitudes shocker Spider Jerusalem Apr 2012 #11

Lincoln became Lincoln. undeterred Apr 2012 #12

Lincoln was preoccupied with preserving The Union. no_hypocrisy Apr 2012 #13

He was pandering to bigoted people in the Lower Midwest. Odin2005 Apr 2012 #15

"Were"? HughBeaumont Apr 2012 #27

DOH, my bad! Odin2005 Apr 2012 #33

Hah! -n/t coalition_unwilling Apr 2012 #99

actually at that time he only needed those from Southern Illinois as he was running for that Senate dsc Apr 2012 #28

Then, yeah, but he had the same problem in 1860 running for president. Odin2005 Apr 2012 #37

I remember learning about this rhetoric when I was in High School and it really floored me. aikoaiko Apr 2012 #18

Yet he prosecuted a war that was, ultimately, about freeing black people MannyGoldstein Apr 2012 #19

Manny, the war became ultimately about freeing slaves (whether black or coalition_unwilling Apr 2012 #100

Much like Robert Byrd. People are complex. Keep reading. nt Snake Alchemist Apr 2012 #23

At one point Lincoln wanted to return Blacks to Africa deutsey Apr 2012 #24

And the Titanic actually was a ship Lex Apr 2012 #25

I want to explain why I rec'd this. It made for interesting replies people might want to read. Gregorian Apr 2012 #32

It's hard to belive that any one with a basic knowledge of Lincoln and his history enough Apr 2012 #35

I know, right? LOL Lex Apr 2012 #41

See comment #10 n/t Tx4obama Apr 2012 #72

This isn't really a surprise to me. A couple years ago I read a quote by Lincoln stating that he Proles Apr 2012 #40

Oh for gawd sake it was 1860 alphafemale Apr 2012 #42

Required reading RFKHumphreyObama Apr 2012 #43

The story here is that a large number of people cr8tvlde Apr 2012 #45

If this was Lincoln's personal viewpoint, then why did the South fear him being elected? Major Hogwash Apr 2012 #46

Because, Major, the South Was Loaded With, And Led By, Raving Nutters.... The Magistrate Apr 2012 #60

American history is really ugly; it's why most people prefer American "heritage" Tom Ripley Apr 2012 #48

History in general is really ugly; ours is not uniquely negative. nt Codeine Apr 2012 #66

Agreed(n/t) Tom Ripley Apr 2012 #83

Marge Simpson : "I never realized history was so filthy!" bullwinkle428 Apr 2012 #87

Not news to me. I learned about it in the 50s frogmarch Apr 2012 #49

This does not surprise me. He fought the war to stop the south from leaving the union. And jwirr Apr 2012 #50

RE: Dead people. jp11 Apr 2012 #51

Marx on Lincoln Starry Messenger Apr 2012 #53

I'm guessing that LGBT rights wouldn't draw much support in the 1850s either. baldguy Apr 2012 #54

...or the 1950s, for that matter. regnaD kciN Apr 2012 #92

Sure--he was dragged, kicking and screaming, to the place where he saw the point of emancipation. MADem Apr 2012 #61

Lincoln WAS NOT dragged, kicking and screaming, to emancipation. That is total and utter rubbish. He coalition_unwilling Apr 2012 #103

Oh please. Put the huff-n-puff away. I am talking about his evolution over DECADES. MADem Apr 2012 #104

When someone uses the phrase 'kicking and screaming,' the implication is coalition_unwilling Apr 2012 #106

Read past the subject line. I wasn't implying what you are suggesting at all. MADem Apr 2012 #108

And Jefferson had slaves and he SLEPT with them...I mean he really had SEX with them...and George Rowdyboy Apr 2012 #62

Lincoln also didn't free the slaves Major Nikon Apr 2012 #76

Very true.... I was unaware there was any controversy about that but thanks for the clarification.. Rowdyboy Apr 2012 #90

Oh, please. That's engaging in pedantry and Jesuitical equivocation of the worst sort. The coalition_unwilling Apr 2012 #105

As opposed to historical revisionism? Major Nikon Apr 2012 #107

Yipes. I guess it comes down to what the phrase 'freeing the slaves' actually means, hence coalition_unwilling Apr 2012 #114

Sounds like we need some Drunk History in this thread... SidDithers Apr 2012 #64

Michael Cera's is really fantastic... Rowdyboy Apr 2012 #96

this is well known JI7 Apr 2012 #68

Are we throwing Abe under the bus now too? RetroLounge Apr 2012 #77

And the self-righteous 'presentism' is pretty stifling too, now coalition_unwilling Apr 2012 #119

Seems a lot of folk are feeling superior for having read A People's History of the United States sadbear Apr 2012 #80

Therefore, he was actually the bad guy, and the South should have won. 2ndAmForComputers Apr 2012 #81

Oh! I finally understand your post. MannyGoldstein Apr 2012 #93

Has anyone on this thread even read the full post on the link in the OP? Tx4obama Apr 2012 #94

What was the point of your post? nt MannyGoldstein Apr 2012 #95

It's the WTF part that is throwing so many off Major Nikon Apr 2012 #97

Yep, well it's not my fault that folks aren't clicking on the OP link to see that's the title :) n/t Tx4obama Apr 2012 #101

Less interesting to me than why we don't talk about which of today's ruling-class families owe HiPointDem Apr 2012 #102

It took me years to accept the truth of Lincoln's racism. BlueIris Apr 2012 #109

Read "A People's History of the United States" quispquake Apr 2012 #111

And Jefferson owned / raped slaves & Lincoln got STDs from hookers. ehrnst Apr 2012 #112

I think a better statement on poster would be - lynne Apr 2012 #115

Emphatic K&R for the discussion! I had my eyes opened a couple years back coalition_unwilling Apr 2012 #116

I remember being taught this in highschool, in addition, his views did develop over the course of... Humanist_Activist Apr 2012 #118

It's how normal men are remembered as great men. Ian_rd Apr 2012 #122

Slavery does not equal racism malthaussen Apr 2012 #124

Abraham Lincoln in the end lincoln65 Feb 2014 #127

welcome to DU gopiscrap Feb 2014 #128