General Discussion

MADem

(135,425 posts)

222. I'm trying to point that out, pretty much, and getting the "Well but it's a continuum" argument in

Mon Oct 27, 2014, 06:53 AM

Oct 2014

reply...despite the fact that everyone on that continuum has reversed course and is marching--I won't say goose-stepping, but I have seen some worrying trends over the water of late--in the reverse direction, angry at immigrants, brown people, anyone with a "different" religion, and demanding that people who want to stay in their countries be "makers not takers" to riff on Mitt. They're privatizing public services, rationing them, getting cheaper with the goods and raising taxes to the point that, in France anyway, their taxpayers are crying uncle and leaving.

Pointing this sort of thing out doesn't imply cheerleading for it, but there is a case for putting open eyes on the problems instead of hiding one's head in the sand and pretending that Europe is "so much more progressive" when they aren't. .

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Why is the American left not as effective as the European left? [View all] True Blue Door Oct 2014 OP

tl;dr leeroysphitz Oct 2014 #1

Go back and read it, then comment. Or do neither. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #3

I scanned it Warpy Oct 2014 #35

It's not War and Peace. Read the OP like a grownup, then get back to me. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #46

Answering th OP question fadedrose Oct 2014 #193

You didn't miss much. Kalidurga Oct 2014 #201

america is a country that desperately wants to believe in fairey tales. KG Oct 2014 #2

Belief isn't the problem. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #4

What a pantload. 99Forever Oct 2014 #5

Any substantive criticism, or did you just want to confirm my point? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #6

You got all you deserve. 99Forever Oct 2014 #9

... scarletwoman Oct 2014 #11

you get a rainbow! nashville_brook Oct 2014 #18

You've said nothing. treestar Oct 2014 #22

Your President, from the Left, is what we would think of as Centre-Right. mr blur Oct 2014 #104

In the USA I am to the left Quantess Oct 2014 #139

And oh look, *crickets* Starry Messenger Oct 2014 #183

non-responsive treestar Oct 2014 #194

You have nothing to say. Your comment is a perfect example of my point. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #36

aggressively attacking posters does nothing to improve your OP nashville_brook Oct 2014 #49

Can you suggest a more constructive response to someone True Blue Door Oct 2014 #57

Your post is entirely self describing AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #52

And you just said "I know you are, but what am I?" Thanks for playing. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #58

And you react negatively to, and lash out at, all criticism AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #61

The OP is criticism that you can't handle. Irony fail. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #66

The OP is a pantload AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #67

Then why haven't any of you even tried to "debunk" it? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #71

You are doing a fine job of it yourself AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #72

Dismissing it in its entirety without explanation is "the slightest criticism"? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #76

You mean flushing it? AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #80

I mean trolling. I.e., what you're doing. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #93

Centrism will always fail AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #77

Centrism isn't relevant to this discussion. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #96

If your position is neither Centrist nor Leftist, what is it? AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #185

Rational. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #212

... 99Forever Oct 2014 #73

LOL! True Blue Door Oct 2014 #94

I have zero idea what you are babbling on about ... 99Forever Oct 2014 #98

Umm, I'm "babbling" about the article cited in the post you linked to. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #160

My guess AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #186

sounds like it was written by somebody who came into office as a youngish progressive nashville_brook Oct 2014 #7

Then how come the left doesn't get anything done? treestar Oct 2014 #12

i've been seeing "the left" get LOTS done -- paid sick time, raise the wage, and GOTV nashville_brook Oct 2014 #16

In the 60s? treestar Oct 2014 #20

i don't know about where you live (maybe you're all online) nashville_brook Oct 2014 #33

No, that would be here and now by lefties, at least on the 'left coast.' suffragette Oct 2014 #84

I've seen the liberal leaders whom the left constantly trashes get those things done. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #38

So you are a right winger? AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #53

Non sequitur. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #62

You loathe the left AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #64

I loathe individual people who care more about their egos than about other people. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #68

Reacting to the reaction AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #69

Exactly. The OP is a reaction to present circumstances, and argues for changing them. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #70

What do you think the LGBT rights advances came from, the right? Centrists who nattered about Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #25

precisely. there's no "there there" in centrism. nashville_brook Oct 2014 #37

Here's the problem. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #56

Well, first time I've seen a straw dolphin. suffragette Oct 2014 #88

My point was that these things had been "pushed for" by the left for decades. Ineffectually. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #95

The state senator I vote for every time is consistently the most progressive one in my state. suffragette Oct 2014 #106

That's great. Promote her to higher office. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #163

Yep. QC Oct 2014 #13

if you don't love republican policy from a "progressive" label, nashville_brook Oct 2014 #17

It's still progress. treestar Oct 2014 #23

Do you not give the slightest of shits about the millions of Americans True Blue Door Oct 2014 #27

FYI, they have health insurance, not health care. truebluegreen Oct 2014 #43

And food stamps are not food. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #63

Are you claiming the two are equivalent? truebluegreen Oct 2014 #115

I'm claiming that "x is not y" is not a logical argument that "x < y". True Blue Door Oct 2014 #164

I am overwhelmed by your erudition truebluegreen Oct 2014 #167

Can't help missing what isn't there. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #182

*sigh* truebluegreen Oct 2014 #184

The distinction is just a matter of degree. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #213

Um, no. truebluegreen Oct 2014 #225

It's not equivalent. It's a means. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #227

This really shouldn't be so difficult to understand. truebluegreen Oct 2014 #231

They have health insurance, not health care. QC Oct 2014 #47

Then accomplish something better. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #78

I love the fact I finally got my teeth taken care of thanks to Obamacare. Too bad you only care KittyWampus Oct 2014 #42

That must mean your teeth are right-wing sellouts! :D True Blue Door Oct 2014 #79

Yet another comment that has nothing whatsoever to do with the OP. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #28

You are describing your own reaction AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #54

Once again, "I know you are, but what am I?" is not a rebuttal. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #82

Again AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #91

And again, you're trolling childish retorts because you have no rational arguments to make. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #157

Again AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #205

But you haven't disagreed with me, just insulted me. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #214

The OP is a fact free load of crap AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #234

I noticed that, too. Marr Oct 2014 #151

There is no 'American Left' leftstreet Oct 2014 #8

Exactly. polichick Oct 2014 #19

You don't consider yourself American? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #29

LOL n/t leftstreet Oct 2014 #118

Well, which is it? Do you not consider yourself American, or do you not consider yourself Left? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #155

Excellent. A lot of the left needs to hear that. treestar Oct 2014 #10

A lot of people on the left demand to be ignored. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #89

Less than 100% equals 0% FrodosPet Oct 2014 #14

The first part is indeed their attitude. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #30

Because Europe's media isn't owned in its entirety by five billionaires, like it is in the US. PSPS Oct 2014 #15

Because they have a government that wouldn't allow it. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #31

I would argue that the "American Left" you describe never existed... brooklynite Oct 2014 #21

As long as they are completely without influence, fine treestar Oct 2014 #24

That might be. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #32

How many mechanics; how many factory workers; how many miners LuvLoogie Oct 2014 #60

That's a fair and important criticism. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #92

This is very true. Thanks for bringing it up. appalachiablue Oct 2014 #123

My history professor a few semesters back had never heard of Blair Mountain. Brigid Oct 2014 #138

Pretty bad. This is takeover of education/history by RW in 35 yrs., corporate media, dumbed down. appalachiablue Oct 2014 #146

It's not "the left" here that most often trashes blue collar workers Fumesucker Oct 2014 #219

No backing from the established party. Zephyr Teachout, Barbara Buono who were Both sound contenders adirondacker Oct 2014 #26

So you're saying they didn't know they would be fought by big money? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #34

Yes, silly candidates - they ran on issues, not ass-kissing. djean111 Oct 2014 #41

And to you that's enough, but not to anyone who actually needs help from the government. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #97

"If it's all about money and return on investment and stock shares and all that, adirondacker Oct 2014 #45

The bullshit is only going to get heavier and heavier and more voluminous when the 2014 djean111 Oct 2014 #50

If there are no primary contenders, whose fault would that be? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #99

I agree with Moyers, but I don't see how this relates to what we're discussing. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #100

the OP displays a conveniently limited view of contemporary politics. nashville_brook Oct 2014 #40

Another recent thread explains who to Blame when the shit hits the fan... adirondacker Oct 2014 #51

Mmmmm - Lefty punching - it's what's for breakfast! djean111 Oct 2014 #39

also, watch what happens when left congress folk try to form coalitions with libertarian Rs nashville_brook Oct 2014 #44

Good point dumbcat Oct 2014 #81

Ludicrous accusation. Constructive, rational criticism = "lefty punching." Sheer insecurity. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #102

What a load of crap AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #48

You didn't even read the OP. You've made that clear, now stop spamming. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #103

Sure, if you say so, uhuh, that must me it! AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #105

I read it. He's right. So, who's spamming whom? BillZBubb Oct 2014 #121

Sorry, I don't buy it. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #125

I thought you were going to tell us how the European Left differs. eShirl Oct 2014 #55

I guess you stopped reading before this point: True Blue Door Oct 2014 #108

I did miss that in my scan of that wall of text, yes. eShirl Oct 2014 #207

Maybe you should scan less and actually read things. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #215

This is pure fantasy MFrohike Oct 2014 #59

And still they're more effective than the American left. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #109

Uh, no? BlindTiresias Oct 2014 #116

I'm well aware of the political situation in Europe. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #126

Hell of a choice MFrohike Oct 2014 #159

Democracy is the least awful system of government. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #166

It is TL/DR....but why do you think the "European Left" is so successful? They aren't. MADem Oct 2014 #65

This may be presently true laundry_queen Oct 2014 #83

The rightward trajectory in Europe isn't new--and it's concerning, I think. MADem Oct 2014 #107

The far right made gains in one election. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #110

Which are being reversed! BlindTiresias Oct 2014 #117

They would have to be reversed quite a long ways to become like our systems. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #127

Decades? Berlusconi and Sarkozy were progressive? Merkel is a rightie. Le Pen almost won in France. MADem Oct 2014 #119

Believe me, I'm not a Eurofanboy. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #128

There are serious cracks in that armor. They aren't new, and they are getting worse, not better. MADem Oct 2014 #192

Progress is not a straight line, so there were bound to be reversals for Europe. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #216

Progress may not be a straight line, but when the entire region, pretty much, screams MADem Oct 2014 #221

Well written. My right-wing cousin... LuvLoogie Oct 2014 #74

I use the term "trustafarians." True Blue Door Oct 2014 #113

Well, I read some of it laundry_queen Oct 2014 #75

Thank you. Excellent post. (nt) scarletwoman Oct 2014 #85

Excellent points. thucythucy Oct 2014 #101

So should there be restrictions on the media? treestar Oct 2014 #122

Well, generally laundry_queen Oct 2014 #196

I don't know where those conclusions come from. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #124

Well, I have no idea where your conclusions come from. laundry_queen Oct 2014 #197

I would agree, and take it further Savannahmann Oct 2014 #86

1200 hate radio stations owned, run, and staffed by the looniest of the loony right. Complete Doctor_J Oct 2014 #87

We complain about all that propaganda, but what do we do about it? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #130

It was self-described Centrists who sat out the last election. Marr Oct 2014 #148

Just stop with the slander already. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #153

Slander? lol-- ok, I just realized you're trolling. Marr Oct 2014 #154

Which one of us accused the other being a centrist True Blue Door Oct 2014 #168

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service LostOne4Ever Oct 2014 #171

Thanks for posting that. Marr Oct 2014 #189

This may be the best post that I have ever read on DU. Yavin4 Oct 2014 #90

Seems to have pissed off quite a few people who see themselves reflected in it. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #131

Yep. And now that you realize that, take the insults (because there was no discussion Number23 Oct 2014 #152

Oh, I do. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #169

The Left has to fight a coalition (or, Devil's Brew) now of Republicans and 3rd Way Democrats. Tierra_y_Libertad Oct 2014 #111

that's it exactly. As soon as Obama and the rest of the DINOs support Sanders instead of PHARMA, Doctor_J Oct 2014 #132

Only because it refuses to form its own coalitions. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #134

So, the Democrats should form coalitions with the Left instead of the quasi-Republican "moderates". Tierra_y_Libertad Oct 2014 #142

That depends on what the left wants to do, doesn't it? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #150

Unfortunately, the party seems very comfortable with it's right wing pals and beneficiaries. Tierra_y_Libertad Oct 2014 #158

The Democratic Party leadership will align with the left True Blue Door Oct 2014 #170

The left will align itself with the Party when it proves itself a reliabale friend Tierra_y_Libertad Oct 2014 #187

The left isn't in a position to cop that attitude. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #217

If the Left is so "ineffective" why does it get blamed when the Democrats lose? Tierra_y_Libertad Oct 2014 #229

Best of the best,TBD and you Wellstone ruled Oct 2014 #112

Yes, Wellstone was definitely one of the last humanist titans in the federal government. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #135

You mean like the way we punished Liz Warren and Bernie Sanders for being effective legislators? pa28 Oct 2014 #114

Can you support the claim that Warren and Sanders are effective legislators? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #136

Sure. pa28 Oct 2014 #204

They certainly contribute in ways where individual work is involved. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #218

Who owns the media in Europe? nt valerief Oct 2014 #120

I don't know. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #137

Really, your whole argument boils down to, 'I hate you whiny, lazy hippies'. Marr Oct 2014 #129

Who hates liberals more - Limpballs or the BOG? Doctor_J Oct 2014 #133

Tough call is right. Marr Oct 2014 #144

Laughable, alternate universe accusation. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #141

Is this really all you've got? Just grade school whining? Marr Oct 2014 #143

Read the damn OP. Pay particular attention to the concluding summary. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #147

Oh, I read it. And again, you're only whining-- in the summary, too. Marr Oct 2014 #149

Utter nonsense. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #172

Let's start with that one then. Marr Oct 2014 #188

You nailed it. And in return you're getting very little discussion. wyldwolf Oct 2014 #140

Humoring idiots is the cross liberals bear for protecting the weak. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #145

+ a million Number23 Oct 2014 #156

Over a half century of demonization of 'communists' and 'socialists' Erich Bloodaxe BSN Oct 2014 #161

More passing the buck. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #174

Uh huh. So this was just flame bait. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Oct 2014 #176

Pure non sequitur. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #179

If you actually mean that Erich Bloodaxe BSN Oct 2014 #180

The left bears a lot of responsibility for right-wing victories. Denying that would be dishonest. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #190

Why should anyone take this seriously? You offer no evidence for anything you say. Vattel Oct 2014 #162

Please, offer an example of something you dispute. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #175

One word: Race Kingofalldems Oct 2014 #165

Yes, as sickening as it is to realize. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #177

Palmer raids, McCarthyism, political assassinations, COINTELPRO from without deutsey Oct 2014 #173

Because it's content with the excuses provided by history and the status quo. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #178

This is such garbage. Starry Messenger Oct 2014 #181

Still nothing but a pantload. 99Forever Oct 2014 #191

Why? Simple Spider Jerusalem Oct 2014 #195

"European countries are much more homogeneous". Dead wrong. Yavin4 Oct 2014 #202

Yes, they are. Spider Jerusalem Oct 2014 #206

You know...you should publish this. It speaks truth to me...if not "truth" at least reality. nt kelliekat44 Oct 2014 #198

The European left is effective because Harmony Blue Oct 2014 #199

To break it all down ONE reason: Blue_Tires Oct 2014 #200

The American Left does not want to do the hard work of consensus building Yavin4 Oct 2014 #203

Here is why the American left is not as strong as the European lefty. JDPriestly Oct 2014 #208

This post is preposterous with the rise of the ultra-nationalists in the EU. joshcryer Oct 2014 #209

I'm trying to point that out, pretty much, and getting the "Well but it's a continuum" argument in MADem Oct 2014 #222

The EU hasn't been "more progressive" since Brazilian beef. joshcryer Oct 2014 #224

Points! MADem Oct 2014 #233

Three! Words! Tarheel_Dem Oct 2014 #210

The US has a far weaker labor movement and a 99% seriously divided by racism eridani Oct 2014 #211

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world.. Fumesucker Oct 2014 #220

I suppose if we simply define what would be considered center-right everywhere else in the western Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #223

Because the right wing here in America is in charge, Jamastiene Oct 2014 #226

Wanna buy a bridge to nowhere? 50 grand down, with a no money back Zorra Oct 2014 #228

Your op and responses show..... NCTraveler Oct 2014 #230

Got it almost completely right whatthehey Oct 2014 #232

K&R Jamaal510 Jun 2015 #235

Well it seems you insist on pushing your agenda on what you think a liberal/leftist is so.. Kalidurga Jun 2015 #236

This message was self-deleted by its author Maedhros Jun 2015 #237