General Discussion

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)

223. I suppose if we simply define what would be considered center-right everywhere else in the western

Mon Oct 27, 2014, 07:13 AM

Oct 2014

democratic world and even in many cases would have been called center-right a generation ago in America - If we just call this "the left" we could claim victory. For that matter we could just call the both major parties including the Republicans "the left" - and draw up some sophisticated sounding arguments why that is so - then this newly defined "liberal-left" can be assured of winning every single election - kind of like how the traditional pro-Soviet Leninist defined capitalism as the sole source of exploitation and imperialism as the export of capitalism - thus by the creation of their own definitions - They had in fact eliminated exploitation and imperialism - at least as they defined it.

So that is all we have to do - we will call what is considered center-right everywhere else as the left - and while we are at it we can call even the Tea Party Right the left and thus be assured of victory after victory after victory.

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Why is the American left not as effective as the European left? [View all] True Blue Door Oct 2014 OP

tl;dr leeroysphitz Oct 2014 #1

Go back and read it, then comment. Or do neither. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #3

I scanned it Warpy Oct 2014 #35

It's not War and Peace. Read the OP like a grownup, then get back to me. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #46

Answering th OP question fadedrose Oct 2014 #193

You didn't miss much. Kalidurga Oct 2014 #201

america is a country that desperately wants to believe in fairey tales. KG Oct 2014 #2

Belief isn't the problem. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #4

What a pantload. 99Forever Oct 2014 #5

Any substantive criticism, or did you just want to confirm my point? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #6

You got all you deserve. 99Forever Oct 2014 #9

... scarletwoman Oct 2014 #11

you get a rainbow! nashville_brook Oct 2014 #18

You've said nothing. treestar Oct 2014 #22

Your President, from the Left, is what we would think of as Centre-Right. mr blur Oct 2014 #104

In the USA I am to the left Quantess Oct 2014 #139

And oh look, *crickets* Starry Messenger Oct 2014 #183

non-responsive treestar Oct 2014 #194

You have nothing to say. Your comment is a perfect example of my point. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #36

aggressively attacking posters does nothing to improve your OP nashville_brook Oct 2014 #49

Can you suggest a more constructive response to someone True Blue Door Oct 2014 #57

Your post is entirely self describing AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #52

And you just said "I know you are, but what am I?" Thanks for playing. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #58

And you react negatively to, and lash out at, all criticism AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #61

The OP is criticism that you can't handle. Irony fail. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #66

The OP is a pantload AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #67

Then why haven't any of you even tried to "debunk" it? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #71

You are doing a fine job of it yourself AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #72

Dismissing it in its entirety without explanation is "the slightest criticism"? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #76

You mean flushing it? AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #80

I mean trolling. I.e., what you're doing. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #93

Centrism will always fail AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #77

Centrism isn't relevant to this discussion. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #96

If your position is neither Centrist nor Leftist, what is it? AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #185

Rational. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #212

... 99Forever Oct 2014 #73

LOL! True Blue Door Oct 2014 #94

I have zero idea what you are babbling on about ... 99Forever Oct 2014 #98

Umm, I'm "babbling" about the article cited in the post you linked to. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #160

My guess AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #186

sounds like it was written by somebody who came into office as a youngish progressive nashville_brook Oct 2014 #7

Then how come the left doesn't get anything done? treestar Oct 2014 #12

i've been seeing "the left" get LOTS done -- paid sick time, raise the wage, and GOTV nashville_brook Oct 2014 #16

In the 60s? treestar Oct 2014 #20

i don't know about where you live (maybe you're all online) nashville_brook Oct 2014 #33

No, that would be here and now by lefties, at least on the 'left coast.' suffragette Oct 2014 #84

I've seen the liberal leaders whom the left constantly trashes get those things done. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #38

So you are a right winger? AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #53

Non sequitur. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #62

You loathe the left AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #64

I loathe individual people who care more about their egos than about other people. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #68

Reacting to the reaction AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #69

Exactly. The OP is a reaction to present circumstances, and argues for changing them. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #70

What do you think the LGBT rights advances came from, the right? Centrists who nattered about Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #25

precisely. there's no "there there" in centrism. nashville_brook Oct 2014 #37

Here's the problem. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #56

Well, first time I've seen a straw dolphin. suffragette Oct 2014 #88

My point was that these things had been "pushed for" by the left for decades. Ineffectually. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #95

The state senator I vote for every time is consistently the most progressive one in my state. suffragette Oct 2014 #106

That's great. Promote her to higher office. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #163

Yep. QC Oct 2014 #13

if you don't love republican policy from a "progressive" label, nashville_brook Oct 2014 #17

It's still progress. treestar Oct 2014 #23

Do you not give the slightest of shits about the millions of Americans True Blue Door Oct 2014 #27

FYI, they have health insurance, not health care. truebluegreen Oct 2014 #43

And food stamps are not food. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #63

Are you claiming the two are equivalent? truebluegreen Oct 2014 #115

I'm claiming that "x is not y" is not a logical argument that "x < y". True Blue Door Oct 2014 #164

I am overwhelmed by your erudition truebluegreen Oct 2014 #167

Can't help missing what isn't there. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #182

*sigh* truebluegreen Oct 2014 #184

The distinction is just a matter of degree. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #213

Um, no. truebluegreen Oct 2014 #225

It's not equivalent. It's a means. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #227

This really shouldn't be so difficult to understand. truebluegreen Oct 2014 #231

They have health insurance, not health care. QC Oct 2014 #47

Then accomplish something better. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #78

I love the fact I finally got my teeth taken care of thanks to Obamacare. Too bad you only care KittyWampus Oct 2014 #42

That must mean your teeth are right-wing sellouts! :D True Blue Door Oct 2014 #79

Yet another comment that has nothing whatsoever to do with the OP. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #28

You are describing your own reaction AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #54

Once again, "I know you are, but what am I?" is not a rebuttal. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #82

Again AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #91

And again, you're trolling childish retorts because you have no rational arguments to make. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #157

Again AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #205

But you haven't disagreed with me, just insulted me. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #214

The OP is a fact free load of crap AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #234

I noticed that, too. Marr Oct 2014 #151

There is no 'American Left' leftstreet Oct 2014 #8

Exactly. polichick Oct 2014 #19

You don't consider yourself American? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #29

LOL n/t leftstreet Oct 2014 #118

Well, which is it? Do you not consider yourself American, or do you not consider yourself Left? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #155

Excellent. A lot of the left needs to hear that. treestar Oct 2014 #10

A lot of people on the left demand to be ignored. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #89

Less than 100% equals 0% FrodosPet Oct 2014 #14

The first part is indeed their attitude. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #30

Because Europe's media isn't owned in its entirety by five billionaires, like it is in the US. PSPS Oct 2014 #15

Because they have a government that wouldn't allow it. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #31

I would argue that the "American Left" you describe never existed... brooklynite Oct 2014 #21

As long as they are completely without influence, fine treestar Oct 2014 #24

That might be. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #32

How many mechanics; how many factory workers; how many miners LuvLoogie Oct 2014 #60

That's a fair and important criticism. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #92

This is very true. Thanks for bringing it up. appalachiablue Oct 2014 #123

My history professor a few semesters back had never heard of Blair Mountain. Brigid Oct 2014 #138

Pretty bad. This is takeover of education/history by RW in 35 yrs., corporate media, dumbed down. appalachiablue Oct 2014 #146

It's not "the left" here that most often trashes blue collar workers Fumesucker Oct 2014 #219

No backing from the established party. Zephyr Teachout, Barbara Buono who were Both sound contenders adirondacker Oct 2014 #26

So you're saying they didn't know they would be fought by big money? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #34

Yes, silly candidates - they ran on issues, not ass-kissing. djean111 Oct 2014 #41

And to you that's enough, but not to anyone who actually needs help from the government. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #97

"If it's all about money and return on investment and stock shares and all that, adirondacker Oct 2014 #45

The bullshit is only going to get heavier and heavier and more voluminous when the 2014 djean111 Oct 2014 #50

If there are no primary contenders, whose fault would that be? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #99

I agree with Moyers, but I don't see how this relates to what we're discussing. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #100

the OP displays a conveniently limited view of contemporary politics. nashville_brook Oct 2014 #40

Another recent thread explains who to Blame when the shit hits the fan... adirondacker Oct 2014 #51

Mmmmm - Lefty punching - it's what's for breakfast! djean111 Oct 2014 #39

also, watch what happens when left congress folk try to form coalitions with libertarian Rs nashville_brook Oct 2014 #44

Good point dumbcat Oct 2014 #81

Ludicrous accusation. Constructive, rational criticism = "lefty punching." Sheer insecurity. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #102

What a load of crap AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #48

You didn't even read the OP. You've made that clear, now stop spamming. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #103

Sure, if you say so, uhuh, that must me it! AgingAmerican Oct 2014 #105

I read it. He's right. So, who's spamming whom? BillZBubb Oct 2014 #121

Sorry, I don't buy it. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #125

I thought you were going to tell us how the European Left differs. eShirl Oct 2014 #55

I guess you stopped reading before this point: True Blue Door Oct 2014 #108

I did miss that in my scan of that wall of text, yes. eShirl Oct 2014 #207

Maybe you should scan less and actually read things. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #215

This is pure fantasy MFrohike Oct 2014 #59

And still they're more effective than the American left. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #109

Uh, no? BlindTiresias Oct 2014 #116

I'm well aware of the political situation in Europe. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #126

Hell of a choice MFrohike Oct 2014 #159

Democracy is the least awful system of government. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #166

It is TL/DR....but why do you think the "European Left" is so successful? They aren't. MADem Oct 2014 #65

This may be presently true laundry_queen Oct 2014 #83

The rightward trajectory in Europe isn't new--and it's concerning, I think. MADem Oct 2014 #107

The far right made gains in one election. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #110

Which are being reversed! BlindTiresias Oct 2014 #117

They would have to be reversed quite a long ways to become like our systems. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #127

Decades? Berlusconi and Sarkozy were progressive? Merkel is a rightie. Le Pen almost won in France. MADem Oct 2014 #119

Believe me, I'm not a Eurofanboy. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #128

There are serious cracks in that armor. They aren't new, and they are getting worse, not better. MADem Oct 2014 #192

Progress is not a straight line, so there were bound to be reversals for Europe. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #216

Progress may not be a straight line, but when the entire region, pretty much, screams MADem Oct 2014 #221

Well written. My right-wing cousin... LuvLoogie Oct 2014 #74

I use the term "trustafarians." True Blue Door Oct 2014 #113

Well, I read some of it laundry_queen Oct 2014 #75

Thank you. Excellent post. (nt) scarletwoman Oct 2014 #85

Excellent points. thucythucy Oct 2014 #101

So should there be restrictions on the media? treestar Oct 2014 #122

Well, generally laundry_queen Oct 2014 #196

I don't know where those conclusions come from. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #124

Well, I have no idea where your conclusions come from. laundry_queen Oct 2014 #197

I would agree, and take it further Savannahmann Oct 2014 #86

1200 hate radio stations owned, run, and staffed by the looniest of the loony right. Complete Doctor_J Oct 2014 #87

We complain about all that propaganda, but what do we do about it? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #130

It was self-described Centrists who sat out the last election. Marr Oct 2014 #148

Just stop with the slander already. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #153

Slander? lol-- ok, I just realized you're trolling. Marr Oct 2014 #154

Which one of us accused the other being a centrist True Blue Door Oct 2014 #168

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service LostOne4Ever Oct 2014 #171

Thanks for posting that. Marr Oct 2014 #189

This may be the best post that I have ever read on DU. Yavin4 Oct 2014 #90

Seems to have pissed off quite a few people who see themselves reflected in it. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #131

Yep. And now that you realize that, take the insults (because there was no discussion Number23 Oct 2014 #152

Oh, I do. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #169

The Left has to fight a coalition (or, Devil's Brew) now of Republicans and 3rd Way Democrats. Tierra_y_Libertad Oct 2014 #111

that's it exactly. As soon as Obama and the rest of the DINOs support Sanders instead of PHARMA, Doctor_J Oct 2014 #132

Only because it refuses to form its own coalitions. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #134

So, the Democrats should form coalitions with the Left instead of the quasi-Republican "moderates". Tierra_y_Libertad Oct 2014 #142

That depends on what the left wants to do, doesn't it? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #150

Unfortunately, the party seems very comfortable with it's right wing pals and beneficiaries. Tierra_y_Libertad Oct 2014 #158

The Democratic Party leadership will align with the left True Blue Door Oct 2014 #170

The left will align itself with the Party when it proves itself a reliabale friend Tierra_y_Libertad Oct 2014 #187

The left isn't in a position to cop that attitude. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #217

If the Left is so "ineffective" why does it get blamed when the Democrats lose? Tierra_y_Libertad Oct 2014 #229

Best of the best,TBD and you Wellstone ruled Oct 2014 #112

Yes, Wellstone was definitely one of the last humanist titans in the federal government. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #135

You mean like the way we punished Liz Warren and Bernie Sanders for being effective legislators? pa28 Oct 2014 #114

Can you support the claim that Warren and Sanders are effective legislators? True Blue Door Oct 2014 #136

Sure. pa28 Oct 2014 #204

They certainly contribute in ways where individual work is involved. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #218

Who owns the media in Europe? nt valerief Oct 2014 #120

I don't know. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #137

Really, your whole argument boils down to, 'I hate you whiny, lazy hippies'. Marr Oct 2014 #129

Who hates liberals more - Limpballs or the BOG? Doctor_J Oct 2014 #133

Tough call is right. Marr Oct 2014 #144

Laughable, alternate universe accusation. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #141

Is this really all you've got? Just grade school whining? Marr Oct 2014 #143

Read the damn OP. Pay particular attention to the concluding summary. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #147

Oh, I read it. And again, you're only whining-- in the summary, too. Marr Oct 2014 #149

Utter nonsense. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #172

Let's start with that one then. Marr Oct 2014 #188

You nailed it. And in return you're getting very little discussion. wyldwolf Oct 2014 #140

Humoring idiots is the cross liberals bear for protecting the weak. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #145

+ a million Number23 Oct 2014 #156

Over a half century of demonization of 'communists' and 'socialists' Erich Bloodaxe BSN Oct 2014 #161

More passing the buck. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #174

Uh huh. So this was just flame bait. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Oct 2014 #176

Pure non sequitur. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #179

If you actually mean that Erich Bloodaxe BSN Oct 2014 #180

The left bears a lot of responsibility for right-wing victories. Denying that would be dishonest. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #190

Why should anyone take this seriously? You offer no evidence for anything you say. Vattel Oct 2014 #162

Please, offer an example of something you dispute. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #175

One word: Race Kingofalldems Oct 2014 #165

Yes, as sickening as it is to realize. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #177

Palmer raids, McCarthyism, political assassinations, COINTELPRO from without deutsey Oct 2014 #173

Because it's content with the excuses provided by history and the status quo. True Blue Door Oct 2014 #178

This is such garbage. Starry Messenger Oct 2014 #181

Still nothing but a pantload. 99Forever Oct 2014 #191

Why? Simple Spider Jerusalem Oct 2014 #195

"European countries are much more homogeneous". Dead wrong. Yavin4 Oct 2014 #202

Yes, they are. Spider Jerusalem Oct 2014 #206

You know...you should publish this. It speaks truth to me...if not "truth" at least reality. nt kelliekat44 Oct 2014 #198

The European left is effective because Harmony Blue Oct 2014 #199

To break it all down ONE reason: Blue_Tires Oct 2014 #200

The American Left does not want to do the hard work of consensus building Yavin4 Oct 2014 #203

Here is why the American left is not as strong as the European lefty. JDPriestly Oct 2014 #208

This post is preposterous with the rise of the ultra-nationalists in the EU. joshcryer Oct 2014 #209

I'm trying to point that out, pretty much, and getting the "Well but it's a continuum" argument in MADem Oct 2014 #222

The EU hasn't been "more progressive" since Brazilian beef. joshcryer Oct 2014 #224

Points! MADem Oct 2014 #233

Three! Words! Tarheel_Dem Oct 2014 #210

The US has a far weaker labor movement and a 99% seriously divided by racism eridani Oct 2014 #211

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world.. Fumesucker Oct 2014 #220

I suppose if we simply define what would be considered center-right everywhere else in the western Douglas Carpenter Oct 2014 #223

Because the right wing here in America is in charge, Jamastiene Oct 2014 #226

Wanna buy a bridge to nowhere? 50 grand down, with a no money back Zorra Oct 2014 #228

Your op and responses show..... NCTraveler Oct 2014 #230

Got it almost completely right whatthehey Oct 2014 #232

K&R Jamaal510 Jun 2015 #235

Well it seems you insist on pushing your agenda on what you think a liberal/leftist is so.. Kalidurga Jun 2015 #236

This message was self-deleted by its author Maedhros Jun 2015 #237