General Discussion

IdaBriggs

(10,559 posts)

164. Child care and care giving do have monetary value.

Tue Oct 28, 2014, 10:14 AM

Oct 2014

Ask your favorite babysitter.

The automatic assumption by you that staying home with children is "withdrawing from the work force" is (in my opinion) one of the most insane arguments any parent can actually make.

Pretend minimum wage is $10.10 -- child care @ 40 hours (while one member of the team is "at work&quot , plus drive time (usually minimum 5 hours -- one hour each for five days), plus lunch and breaks (another five hours) means "working spouses" are gone from their homes for 50 hours.

50 hours * $10.10 = $505 each week, or $26,260 annually (plus employer costs).

If you pay a nanny or day care provider, that cost can be "per child" or include benefits.

Low income wage earners may choose to "pay" a stay-at-home spouse with the "savings" going to the household.

Invisible money is hard to count: how much is it worth to make sure the quality of care children receive is at a standard that is agreeable to the family? Daycare providers will not take children to the doctor or the dentist, to enrichment activities like the library or the park, etc.

Plus personally, having carried the children / given birth to them, their is no way my husband could ever compensate me appropriately for that (even if one assumes the standard surrogate fee of $40K).

Women do it for "love" - business folks do it for profit.

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Highlight:

Stay-at-Home Mom Facing Divorce? Don't Expect Alimony - Forbes article [View all] FLPanhandle Oct 2014 OP

Articles Reveal The Perils Of Stay At Home Moms. In 3 Words. In Such Arrangement "You're Screwed." TheMastersNemesis Oct 2014 #1

I'd like to see the numbers on this, by decade. grasswire Oct 2014 #6

I'd like to see the ideologic background of these judges. Is this trend only a big victory Hortensis Oct 2014 #13

Interesting the lawyers were most concerned when it's a female judge. FLPanhandle Oct 2014 #14

Perhaps, but I think mostly women tend to be more clear eyed about, and certainly less Hortensis Oct 2014 #19

You should watch a documentary done by the Canadian Film Board tech3149 Oct 2014 #20

You should post this in its own thread AwakeAtLast Oct 2014 #48

Rather ironic isn't it? Lancero Oct 2014 #24

It's why even older Boomer women who didn't have to work Warpy Oct 2014 #227

Opportunities for ANYONE without recent employment are NIL! napi21 Oct 2014 #2

Exactly abelenkpe Oct 2014 #8

Must be something new, I got divorced 3 years ago and pay alimony. dilby Oct 2014 #3

I'm a stay at home mom who hasn't worked in 20 years. I would hope I would get a chance to at least liberal_at_heart Oct 2014 #4

You might hope for it, but in many regions most job training programs were canceled during the Hortensis Oct 2014 #18

There is no guarantee for anybody. I refuse to let those on here who hate the idea of being married liberal_at_heart Oct 2014 #47

Hi, Lib. I missed your post before and just wanted to say good for you. Hortensis Nov 2014 #238

Staying home to take care of your kids can be a real detriment to your career, Sheldon Cooper Oct 2014 #5

I have a family member who is a stay at home dad. grasswire Oct 2014 #7

Geez AndreaCG Oct 2014 #10

this year the youngest is in kindergarten grasswire Oct 2014 #11

Even while married, I worked full-time at night and took care of the kids during the day Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #78

I was headed down that road... Sen. Walter Sobchak Oct 2014 #233

When I worked in state government I noticed we hired many women with no recent work history. Shrike47 Oct 2014 #9

I'm wondering how many of those enabling jobs might have been canceled by right wing budget cuts...? Hortensis Oct 2014 #16

"Nearly every state is revisiting its laws on alimony � or �maintenance� � in divorce cases" KamaAina Oct 2014 #12

Hardly. Daemonaquila Oct 2014 #15

wow Liberal_in_LA Oct 2014 #17

A prenuptual agreement should be mandatory for the state to recognise a marriage. Donald Ian Rankin Oct 2014 #21

actually a very good idea etherealtruth Oct 2014 #32

I'd go with that. I think marriage is quite worthless nowadays anyway. Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #68

I help middle aged women going through divorce Sienna86 Oct 2014 #128

that type of agreement makes sense. samsingh Oct 2014 #182

One reason I oppose marriage. alarimer Oct 2014 #22

I think this would be more a case for opposing having children FLPanhandle Oct 2014 #23

Not entirely GummyBearz Oct 2014 #39

In life we all take some risk and sometimes good things happen and sometimes bad things liberal_at_heart Oct 2014 #25

But what would happen if you weren't granted AndreaCG Oct 2014 #29

It's certainly not a bad idea for everybody to be aware of the divorce and alimony laws in their liberal_at_heart Oct 2014 #30

Plus you'll split marital assets, so it's not like you'd be in the gutter. Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #105

Always have been against alimony. Always will be. LostInAnomie Oct 2014 #26

What a shock n/t kcr Oct 2014 #31

ya. isnt it. nt seabeyond Oct 2014 #33

I wonder if that poster, GummyBearz Oct 2014 #41

What is silly about a father getting custody? n/t kcr Oct 2014 #42

"a good father a chance at primary custody of a child in a divorce" Scout Oct 2014 #171

Until Equal Pay for Equal Work Liberalynn Oct 2014 #27

It has been the law for 51 years. lumberjack_jeff Oct 2014 #44

Then until that law actually starts being actually enforced Liberalynn Oct 2014 #45

I wonder if this works when it's the man LibertyLover Oct 2014 #28

Yes, I've read articles about women wanting alimony reform bc they pay it. tammywammy Oct 2014 #35

The odds of a man getting alimony certainly has to be lower. Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #55

This message was self-deleted by its author kcr Oct 2014 #57

Hopefully child support is a different matter bhikkhu Oct 2014 #34

Child support is separate from alimony. n/t tammywammy Oct 2014 #36

Kids can't just be put aside, though. kcr Oct 2014 #37

I doubt anyone agreed to the arrangement of supporting anyone after divorce. LostInAnomie Oct 2014 #38

Of course they didn't. Most people don't expect to divorce when they marry. kcr Oct 2014 #40

It doesn't matter if they agreed to it or not. kcr Oct 2014 #85

How is that implicit at all? LostInAnomie Oct 2014 #113

Planned or not, the divorce happens. How is it right for one to leave the other hanging kcr Oct 2014 #119

I answered. It's not my fault if you don't like the answer. LostInAnomie Oct 2014 #133

Both. So why does only one face the consequence? kcr Oct 2014 #134

Because in the real world choices have consequences. LostInAnomie Oct 2014 #135

Choices have consequences. kcr Oct 2014 #136

Am I not typing in English or something? LostInAnomie Oct 2014 #137

Are people forced to marry stay at home spouses? kcr Oct 2014 #138

What the hell are you even talking about? LostInAnomie Oct 2014 #143

You have not answered why the working spouse doesn't have to face any consequences kcr Oct 2014 #144

Why does the working spouse own the SAHP anything? LostInAnomie Oct 2014 #148

Because taking care of children isn't work? IdaBriggs Oct 2014 #145

It's more of a parental duty. LostInAnomie Oct 2014 #149

Child care and care giving do have monetary value. IdaBriggs Oct 2014 #164

Slap all that on a resume then... LostInAnomie Oct 2014 #169

Here's a clue. They don't. kcr Oct 2014 #203

Because one partner didn't voluntarily choose to remove themselves from the workforce. LostInAnomie Oct 2014 #220

How do you figure? kcr Oct 2014 #221

Have we gotten to the point that you are so impervious to reason... LostInAnomie Oct 2014 #224

I'm not the one impervious to reason kcr Oct 2014 #225

And, now you have to moved to just making things up. LostInAnomie Oct 2014 #228

It is not implicit that one will be left in poverty because of that lack of buildup in work history kcr Oct 2014 #230

How are the results of not having a work history... LostInAnomie Oct 2014 #231

Then why not abolish all divorce laws by that logic? kcr Oct 2014 #232

Because that would be idiotic. LostInAnomie Oct 2014 #235

That's really selfish. Feral Child Oct 2014 #154

That's an excellent summation of an argument you just made up in your head. LostInAnomie Oct 2014 #170

part of that SAHP/worker bargain is the SAHP is tying retirement into the future of the worker. seabeyond Oct 2014 #172

Why wouldn't that be covered... LostInAnomie Oct 2014 #177

here is the thing lost, and i am gonna actually take the time to spell it out the best i can. seabeyond Oct 2014 #180

Except instead of boxes, the guy in the green shorts... lumberjack_jeff Oct 2014 #188

no he isnt. cause the little ones have gotten on each side lifting the big one up.... seabeyond Oct 2014 #190

"hardly any part of the conversation though, is it?" lumberjack_jeff Oct 2014 #192

o... mg. i am washing my dog. done. seabeyond Oct 2014 #193

priceless graphic!! n/t deek Oct 2014 #209

Well, that was a fairly respectful answer... LostInAnomie Oct 2014 #234

just about there. not quite. actually, i am not the fan of maintenance/alimony. seabeyond Oct 2014 #236

Retirement <> another person's wages. lumberjack_jeff Oct 2014 #185

It's the internet. Feral Child Oct 2014 #173

Apparently. LostInAnomie Oct 2014 #174

Even with 50/50 physical custody, child support is used as a proxy alimony. Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #56

Because children don't cost anything? kcr Oct 2014 #61

Don't start that crap. READ what I posted. Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #62

It isn't arbitrary. It's a formula based on salary. kcr Oct 2014 #63

Even with near equal salaries, support can be up to 25% of a person's net income. Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #64

Can be up to. You say it yourself. kcr Oct 2014 #67

Again, you didn't read my post. Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #70

Find an example n/t kcr Oct 2014 #71

FUCKING ME! Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #75

No one is a fake feminist kcr Oct 2014 #77

In some cases, it's NOT necessary. Sorry, child support should not be any parent's right of passage Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #80

So, what mythical child requires no food, clothing or medical expenses? kcr Oct 2014 #88

Are you deliberately being obtuse? Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #91

I'm reading you loud and clear n/t kcr Oct 2014 #93

No, you're not. You've retrench into your "man must pay" attitude. Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #96

No, mine is childen shouldn't starve attitude kcr Oct 2014 #97

Post removed Post removed Oct 2014 #99

I'm only responding to what you're typing in this thread kcr Oct 2014 #103

Because they make 2/3 of the joint income treestar Oct 2014 #122

Tell that to the men that went to jail for it davidn3600 Oct 2014 #126

Always anecdotes claiming this happens, but never actual evidence kcr Oct 2014 #127

No you have not treestar Oct 2014 #150

No, it is not treestar Oct 2014 #120

Good. Alimony is the ultimate expression of patriarchy. lumberjack_jeff Oct 2014 #43

Equality laundry_queen Oct 2014 #46

+1. Perfectly illustrated. Nt seabeyond Oct 2014 #49

! Bobbie Jo Oct 2014 #50

My new favorite pic. N/t. Whiskeytide Oct 2014 #72

Only when it's convenient. Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #66

It's gender neutral now treestar Oct 2014 #162

And people wonder why the marriage rate keeps falling AwakeAtLast Oct 2014 #51

If alimony is granted, it should be for a very limited amount of time. Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #52

It doesn't mean a lifetime. That is rarely granted. n/t kcr Oct 2014 #54

My cheating, abusive ex-wife tried to get alimony. Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #53

remember that old saying you'd never die wishing you'd spent more time at the office? Skittles Oct 2014 #58

Not sure where you went with that. LMAO! n/t Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #59

lots of gals fall short of retirement savings / social security Skittles Oct 2014 #60

So the men that used to be in their life should be on the hook for how long as a result? ;) Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #65

If the man doesn't want to be on the hook, don't have a wife that stays home to raise his kids. n/t kcr Oct 2014 #69

So the wife has no control over her decisions and therefore is expunged of any personal choice she.. Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #73

Oh, so men are forced to marry and have stay at home wives? They have no say in this? kcr Oct 2014 #74

So women are incapable of making their own decisions or having a thought in their brain? Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #76

Nice to know you think they can be tossed aside like garbage and left on the street. kcr Oct 2014 #79

So how long does a man need to pay extortion (alimony) after a marriage? Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #82

At least until the ex can get on their feet. kcr Oct 2014 #86

Depends on the exit. If the wive was cheating.... tough shit. Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #89

But what if it was the husbun... not tough shit then I'm guessing? kcr Oct 2014 #90

The husband doesn't usually ask (or granted if they ask) alimony anyway. Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #94

Oh, really? kcr Oct 2014 #95

That's your opinion AndreaCG Oct 2014 #92

So, I should pay my ex-wife (who was a lazy sack the entire marriage) Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #98

If you stayed in the marriage and let her stay home to raise your kids, yes. kcr Oct 2014 #101

Post removed Post removed Oct 2014 #102

Do you know what this thread is about? kcr Oct 2014 #104

My goodness you're a bitter person AndreaCG Oct 2014 #106

Isn't it ridiculous? kcr Oct 2014 #107

I'm bitter because I don't think a husband should be on the hook forever (or near forever) Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #109

They are almost never on the hook forever. This is a nonexistent problem being solved. kcr Oct 2014 #110

I read your post perfectly well AndreaCG Oct 2014 #112

That's not the law treestar Oct 2014 #123

I think in most cases individual circumstances and behavior outweigh any stereotypes bhikkhu Oct 2014 #165

Yours is a more reasonable post AndreaCG Oct 2014 #167

This message was self-deleted by its author seabeyond Oct 2014 #168

The kids love their mother bhikkhu Oct 2014 #207

Sounds like she was and probably still is depressed kcr Oct 2014 #211

Good point AndreaCG Oct 2014 #213

That's not what he said. AndreaCG Oct 2014 #83

No he twisted mine but thanks for playing. Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #84

So how did you react when your husband ordered you out of the house and into paid work? lumberjack_jeff Oct 2014 #176

because you gave nothing in the partnership when you were SAHP and your wife worked? really? seabeyond Oct 2014 #181

Certainly no more than my wife was giving. lumberjack_jeff Oct 2014 #183

O k ... . So? right there puts you on a level playing field for dividing assets, right? seabeyond Oct 2014 #184

So my contribution to the household while a SAHP... lumberjack_jeff Oct 2014 #186

i asked you, that yes, you gave as much as she gave, in this partnership. at this point, seabeyond Oct 2014 #187

In my case it's simple. We both spent time as SAHPs lumberjack_jeff Oct 2014 #189

twice now, you still did not answer a simple question. because things are not equal at that point, seabeyond Oct 2014 #191

You're not hearing me. lumberjack_jeff Oct 2014 #194

so... reality does not matter, you have your position and unequal works for you. seabeyond Oct 2014 #195

What I hope I'm making clear is my opinion of slavery. n/t lumberjack_jeff Oct 2014 #196

for you to define is as slavery, really does not put you in a good light. i know you are seabeyond Oct 2014 #198

Maybe employers can start using that flawed logic. kcr Oct 2014 #208

Since we are in a thread about divorce, I would assume you would be aware that it exists. kcr Oct 2014 #212

Let me get this straight. lumberjack_jeff Oct 2014 #214

If they don't want to be married to a SAHM kcr Oct 2014 #215

Because equality! and self determination! I am woman, hear me roar... for alimony! n/t lumberjack_jeff Oct 2014 #175

What about the determination of men? As I've asked before. Who made them marry stay at home wives? kcr Oct 2014 #202

What if that wasn't brought up at the time of the marriage? davidn3600 Oct 2014 #205

Who cares if it wasn't brought up at the time of the marriage? kcr Oct 2014 #210

did I fucking say that? Skittles Oct 2014 #81

Our boomers who did not divorce JustAnotherGen Oct 2014 #147

You stay home for 25 years and raise the kids. SheilaT Oct 2014 #87

So marital assets are split. That could be a lot of money. n/t Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #100

Why shouldn't they be split? treestar Oct 2014 #124

Agreed. laundry_queen Oct 2014 #108

I left out the moving part. SheilaT Oct 2014 #115

Another thing laundry_queen Oct 2014 #117

But that's not the way it works in 2014 davidn3600 Oct 2014 #116

And those same courts are cheerfully SheilaT Oct 2014 #118

Yes. It's older women being hit hardest by this. kcr Oct 2014 #132

Yeah, it's a great deal for the high income spouse. Not so great for the kids. pnwmom Oct 2014 #111

If he provides a house, can he sell it when the kids turn 18? davidn3600 Oct 2014 #129

And yet they do kcr Oct 2014 #130

Why should he? He was rolling in money. Don't you think his young adult kids would care pnwmom Oct 2014 #140

That's the thing right there... davidn3600 Oct 2014 #146

who raises the kids? seabeyond Oct 2014 #156

Television and XBOX? davidn3600 Oct 2014 #157

wrong answer. an adult is needed, but then you know that. you just like to sit with your seabeyond Oct 2014 #166

Women's issues to you is women being protected from accepting responsibility davidn3600 Oct 2014 #178

what a fuckin bullshit, insulting, anti woman statement thru out your post. seabeyond Oct 2014 #179

Why are the men/working partner protected from the same decision? Why no responsibility for them? kcr Oct 2014 #204

Who benefited? davidn3600 Oct 2014 #217

Seriously? kcr Oct 2014 #218

In exchange for possibly lifetime alimony? Not a bad deal, really davidn3600 Oct 2014 #222

No one is stopping them, dude. In fact, there are more SAHDs. kcr Oct 2014 #223

how does a husband benefit with a wife staying at home? seriously? if you can actually ask that seabeyond Oct 2014 #237

Sure. Just remember who picks your nursing home. Starry Messenger Oct 2014 #151

Isn't there a division of assets and property when a couple splits? Violet_Crumble Oct 2014 #139

The US does not have much in the way of social safety nets kcr Oct 2014 #141

He was a lawyer who knew how to work the system, pnwmom Oct 2014 #142

So this is what institutional slavery looks like... Kalidurga Oct 2014 #114

Baloney, show me a state that has actually changed its law treestar Oct 2014 #121

A few years ago Kansas changed the formula they used SheilaT Oct 2014 #158

. . . treestar Oct 2014 #159

Kansas law is similar. SheilaT Oct 2014 #160

another one (Pennsylvania) treestar Oct 2014 #161

"It's ripping your heart out through your wallet" davidn3600 Oct 2014 #125

"staying at home" is always a dicey proposition.. SoCalDem Oct 2014 #131

I wonder where the author of this article got her facts? merrily Oct 2014 #152

My Ex Got Zip Sparhawk60 Oct 2014 #153

But what if the wife stayed at home by choice malaise Oct 2014 #155

The laws try to get the parties started again treestar Oct 2014 #163

You're on the wrong narrative. lumberjack_jeff Oct 2014 #197

this sounds like... oh, i dont know, reading an MRA site. seabeyond Oct 2014 #199

You have a point malaise Oct 2014 #200

of course there are bad bad women. i am sorry i did not put that forefront in each seabeyond Oct 2014 #201

It's not about bad women. It's about bad society. lumberjack_jeff Oct 2014 #216

No it is not Jeff. But that is what you wanted to hear about, seabeyond Oct 2014 #219

The author cites a couple cases known to one attorney. Not exactly stellar research. WinkyDink Oct 2014 #206

Military men? READ THIS AND DUMP LAZY ASSESS before it's too late! boatsfra Oct 2014 #226

My SO was a stay at home mom when she was married to her ex Ex Lurker Oct 2014 #229