General Discussion

Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)

168. You will never sell them on hand-counting

Wed Nov 5, 2014, 10:03 PM

Nov 2014

Due to the complexity of ballots it is not logistically possible to accurately count races by hand. I do not tell you this to be contrary, or stubborn, I speak from personal experience with politicians, election officials and mathematicians.

My recent ballot in this election had over two dozen races, one race had 19 candidates of which you had to pick two. To hand count ballots accurately requires the ballots be handled by multiple individuals and counted/re-counted multiple times. The more a paper ballot is handled, the greater the chance that it will be damaged/spoiled. In many jurisdictions there are very specific laws about who can handle a ballot and under what conditions.

If you are serious about reforming voting laws in your state the first thing you need to do is volunteer as a poll worker some place with paper ballots and get a look at the logistics. It is more complex than people realize. If you wish to discuss this at length, PM me and we can arrange to talk on the phone.

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The reality about "vote flipping" machines in NC and elsewhere [View all] Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 OP

I think Rove and Co realized the Ohio 2004 tactics can only steal so many votes and to randys1 Nov 2014 #1

Yep, they stole the election in 2004 RobertEarl Nov 2014 #9

I greatly resent the accusation of Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #22

Dont ever dis Kelvin about voting backwoodsbob Nov 2014 #27

+1 cali Nov 2014 #146

-2 RobertEarl Nov 2014 #172

Not sure the motive of the OP but today we talk about GOTV and then we watch for vote stealing randys1 Nov 2014 #30

Exactly right RobertEarl Nov 2014 #40

I am sorry, no Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #79

Eh? RobertEarl Nov 2014 #125

He's not saying,in any way, that computers can't be hacked. SharonAnn Nov 2014 #130

Again, no, I have NEVER said computers cannot be hacked Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #143

You have been a tireless advocate of fair elections Generic Other Nov 2014 #203

Thank you for the kind words Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #205

fearless repubs aspirant Nov 2014 #181

My point is to concetrate on GOTV Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #78

GOTV GOTV randys1 Nov 2014 #152

Why are you here? hunter Nov 2014 #89

Show up and vote Aerows Nov 2014 #33

VOTE VOTE VOTE, take someone to the polls, please! YES YES YES randys1 Nov 2014 #39

+1000 valerief Nov 2014 #77

Then it's really piss poor calibration. hobbit709 Nov 2014 #2

These machines are over ten-twelve years old Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #4

With all due respect watoos Nov 2014 #50

Again, Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #70

Thank you for your efforts to clarify all of this. sybylla Nov 2014 #159

And folks seem to think that Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #161

I've worked on a touch screen from about 12 years ago Thav Nov 2014 #144

What I don't understand Mnpaul Nov 2014 #58

Please consider the logistics Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #72

Is ES&S still using MS Access on these machines? IDemo Nov 2014 #94

Last I looked, yes, though they Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #99

What if the audits weren't really random? FiveGoodMen Nov 2014 #176

I have been programming touchscreen operator interfaces for over 20 years and after initial.... yourout Nov 2014 #107

OK, sorry, but having played with these machines Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #112

Does the machine print the hardcopy where the user can see the printout of the vote? yourout Nov 2014 #113

If I can control what is on the display, I can control what is on the printer Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #114

Do they hand audit the Paper tape vs the electronic results? yourout Nov 2014 #116

The voter is supposed to compare what is on the screen with what is on the printer Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #119

This is the one factor that stands out to me IDemo Nov 2014 #117

Absolutely Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #121

Not meant as snark or opposition, but just curiousity... TinkerTot55 Nov 2014 #153

Last time I looked I saw Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #154

Yet another point I made and got slammed for. n/t Ms. Toad Nov 2014 #186

And if your clients used them only twice a year, how well do you think they would work? n/t eridani Nov 2014 #128

I have a touchscreen computer, also Warpy Nov 2014 #7

Actually scanning the news Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #20

?? One 2008 story of R to D switch, vs. several in each election of D to R switch. nt tblue37 Nov 2014 #28

Here is what I just pulled from the news Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #73

"claiming this evidence of fraud discourages people from voting at a time where we need every damn FSogol Nov 2014 #3

Well said. . . Journeyman Nov 2014 #5

Glad someone still remembers the Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #14

Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2014 #6

"Edwards wanted a recount and we all know what was done to him" demwing Nov 2014 #8

Well, that one didn't last long.... panader0 Nov 2014 #11

Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2014 #49

*Sigh* Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #12

True: Why flip 1 out of 20 votes or whatever, if you can simply... Beartracks Nov 2014 #25

Precisely Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #26

Glad to see you here backwoodsbob Nov 2014 #29

Thank you for the kind remark Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #76

Excellent - That Answered My Question Leith Nov 2014 #36

The funny thing was Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #80

Dang Leith Nov 2014 #111

machines make $$ for corporations. go back to hand paper and stop all this BS nt msongs Nov 2014 #10

You cannot count Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #16

My favorite would be for a special election for offices that wind up in DC SoCalDem Nov 2014 #131

Well, the problem is Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #141

I also read that 70% of votes in this election are on paper due to old machines which have fallen PeaceNikki Nov 2014 #13

Not completely accurate Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #17

I don't want to go back to paper I want to go back to people. zeemike Nov 2014 #47

I actually like our "everybody votes by mail" system. Liberal Veteran Nov 2014 #51

And then you run it through a scanning computer to get the count. zeemike Nov 2014 #54

And we get a decent voter turnout. And there IS a paper trail. Liberal Veteran Nov 2014 #56

People have optical scanners right in their head. zeemike Nov 2014 #60

Logistically...vote by mail works fine. Liberal Veteran Nov 2014 #62

Well how about this. zeemike Nov 2014 #65

It would be almost as easy (and certainly faster) to have three different companies scanning. Liberal Veteran Nov 2014 #69

Vote by mail is my preference Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #100

Sorry, but I must repectfully disagree Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #75

And I I must respectfully disagree zeemike Nov 2014 #96

I have certainly not said Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #98

Well I know it will not change...and no one will purpose an amendment to change it. zeemike Nov 2014 #105

You know what? Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #106

The problem is, the ballots are too complicated Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #68

People can't accurately count complex ballots over long periods of time eridani Nov 2014 #129

this is what we have in NENC ... littlewolf Nov 2014 #48

That system was great, unless the punchcard misfed Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #101

I agree ... Opscan is better, at the time that punch card system littlewolf Nov 2014 #127

The Florida system Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #142

It is accurate in that the votes are cast ON paper. PeaceNikki Nov 2014 #57

Absolutely, and there MUST Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #67

It's the law here in Wisconsin, too. PeaceNikki Nov 2014 #71

Paper with OpScan was found to be quite accurate Mnpaul Nov 2014 #61

What I meant was that it wasn't accurate Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #66

Ahhh. Someone who knows what they're talking about. A delicious rarity. SunSeeker Nov 2014 #15

You are welcome Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #18

I hope you don't. DeadLetterOffice Nov 2014 #21

Hell, you're one of the good guys! nc4bo Nov 2014 #63

This is the problem with politicians Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #64

K&R Go Vols Nov 2014 #19

Thank you. GeorgeGist Nov 2014 #23

A breath of logical, fresh air. Butterbean Nov 2014 #24

And really, if you were going to flip votes through software, would you make it visible? Liberal Veteran Nov 2014 #31

Precisely!!! Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #81

Not with a paper trail you wouldn't. yourout Nov 2014 #109

Again, Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #122

Last question....are there audits to compare paper tape to electronic totals? yourout Nov 2014 #124

Yes, the law requires random audits that compare Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #145

Diebold changed its name in 2007 to Premier Election Solutions 99th_Monkey Nov 2014 #32

I don't recall one reported instance of "D"s flipping to "R"s. MEA CULPA! I MEANT: R to D!!!!!!!!!!! WinkyDink Nov 2014 #34

Easily found. onenote Nov 2014 #43

Google is your friend Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #82

Really? I never got a birthday card! WinkyDink Nov 2014 #132

Well, Google is rather busy Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #140

All points well taken here. However this is about our elections, no room for failure of any kind. YOHABLO Nov 2014 #35

We have limited resources Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #83

Somebody had to stop mstinamotorcity2 Nov 2014 #37

Thank you for the work you have done, Kelvin. Dont call me Shirley Nov 2014 #38

- Takket Nov 2014 #41

I really didn't mind all the effort fighting Diebold Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #84

So it is not fraud but a poorly calibrated touch screen. zeemike Nov 2014 #42

And it's happening to the Republicans too is the issue he's raising Savannahmann Nov 2014 #52

The more complicated the system is the more chances there are to game it. zeemike Nov 2014 #55

Absoutely true Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #87

Well for one thing it don't matter if they show it. zeemike Nov 2014 #93

Occam's Razor Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #86

And our politicians will say nothing and we will do nothing to change it... nc4bo Nov 2014 #59

When we were fighting against paperless ballots Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #92

Um... no Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #85

And never let incompetence be a cover for treachery. zeemike Nov 2014 #91

One more time Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #97

And you can always find a way to make a conspiracy not make sense. zeemike Nov 2014 #102

Actually everyone knows how Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #104

Yes I know...I knew a pro gambler zeemike Nov 2014 #110

complete truth aspirant Nov 2014 #184

The legal margin of victory is either a plurality Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #193

As an IT/repair person, I greatly admire your work and perseverance for accuracy in our.. BlueJazz Nov 2014 #44

I am just a jackleg database programmer, Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #88

Who is Bev Harris? Helen Borg Nov 2014 #45

Gosh that is a question Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #90

Thanks. Helen Borg Nov 2014 #133

That, I have no idea Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #139

Oh, I had not realized that... Helen Borg Nov 2014 #147

Du rec and kick! n/t zappaman Nov 2014 #46

Kevin, this native North Carolinian wants to say a big thank you for all you've done. ladyVet Nov 2014 #53

Thank you Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #74

Absolutely agree with this. The widespread fears of vote-flipping are CTs at their worst. randome Nov 2014 #95

I wrote this back in 2006 Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #103

Great thread (and OP). At the risk of opening a can of worms or ripping off a scab, do KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #108

There were suspicious numbers Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #115

Good points all. People in Ohio waited in line for hours and hours to vote in some KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #118

I am wary of consiracies as explanations, Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #120

Bravo! As long as we acknowledge that there are occasional conspiracies in history -- the KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #123

Yes, they do exist Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #138

Yup. Proving intent is always very tricky... Helen Borg Nov 2014 #134

That you will get no argument from me Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #137

The obvious question-why did they skip 2008 and 2012? maced666 Nov 2014 #126

Well, you know Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #150

What are the facts at the links of "R" flipping to "D" provided by the OP, (SEE POST # 82)? WinkyDink Nov 2014 #135

And this, to me, as a computer tech Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #149

I've seen issues in Florida that are different than you describe, but may be manipulation. Sancho Nov 2014 #136

Let me take these one at a time Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #148

Thanks...hmmmm.... Sancho Nov 2014 #157

Thanks for the clarification Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #160

I agree we need better laws... Sancho Nov 2014 #162

But it can be done Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #163

Thanks for Duval Nov 2014 #151

I believe that only Guilford and Mecklenberg Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #155

Kelvin, I just found this Duval Nov 2014 #156

Thanks Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #158

If not for you and your wife Duval Nov 2014 #164

Here's the breakdown by county: marions ghost Nov 2014 #195

Thank you Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #196

It looks to me like they are phasing them out marions ghost Nov 2014 #201

They are not popular because they cause problems Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #204

The country lost big money on that swindle.... marions ghost Nov 2014 #207

When recalibration isn't the solution Fly by night Nov 2014 #165

And you will get no argument from me on that Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #166

I was 2 years later to this dance ... Fly by night Nov 2014 #167

You will never sell them on hand-counting Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #168

If I'm serious about voting reforms ...? Fly by night Nov 2014 #180

national expert? aspirant Nov 2014 #187

Go back and read what I said Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #188

That's like saying raising awareness about cancer discourages doctor visits. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #169

No, claiming all the doctors are secretly Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #170

How does it fail basic logic? True Blue Door Nov 2014 #171

Again, I have expained this about five times in this thread, but here goes number six Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #173

There is some logic to what you say. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #174

When I pursued this issue Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #175

Fair enough, but it won't do to be complacent about any angle. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #178

Certainly true, Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #179

The Testimony of a Programmer fredamae Nov 2014 #177

This would be the guy who claimed he rigged Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #190

I so agree that voter suppression is real and is growing. deminks Nov 2014 #182

True Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #191

I don't know. I would love to believe this, but I will never forget the 2004 election. Vinca Nov 2014 #183

If I had to make a stab at why we lost Ohio Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #189

I don't recall vote flipping on the actual voting machine as being the issue. Vinca Nov 2014 #197

Again, as long as there is no paper Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #198

It makes you wonder why the machines and software aren't allowed to be examined by the citizenry. Vinca Nov 2014 #199

Again, some states permit/require it Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #200

Thank you for saying what I got lambasted for saying a couple of weeks ago. Ms. Toad Nov 2014 #185

To those who insist there's still a real conspiracy here... brooklynite Nov 2014 #192

And a little actual evidence Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #194

I am against electronic counting for reasons not yet expressed. Half-Century Man Nov 2014 #202

I would have to see some empirical evidence of that Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #206