General Discussion

ieoeja

(9,748 posts)

116. "Provoke" and "legal justification" are two different things.

Wed Apr 18, 2012, 11:39 AM

Apr 2012

Zimmerman claimed he confronted Trayvon. Would you call "how's it going," confronting someone? No, you and Z would not. Z told the police he was going to confront him. He told the police he did confront him. He told *us* he confronted him. Z provoked a reaction.

Was the reaction legally justified? Again, assuming Z is being 100% truthful - everything I have written assumes Z is being 100% truthful - then, no, it was probably not. Congratulations. You now have a reason to arrest Trayvon.

If, you know, he weren't a fucking corpse.

Now that we are done discussing the Martin crime, can we please get back to discussing the Z crime? The one in which Z provokes a fight, loses, then proceeds to kill the other party a long way from where the fight took place (again, according to Z).

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

190 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

I Don't Get George Zimmerman's Defenders [View all] DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 OP

Just reverse the races Cali_Democrat Apr 2012 #1

Crazy Case DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #3

Wait, Zimmerman is white? SaltyBro Apr 2012 #7

Zimmerman is half white Cali_Democrat Apr 2012 #16

There is proof that Zimmerman murdered him based on his skin colour? SaltyBro Apr 2012 #19

I'm referring to Zimmerman's defenders, not Zimmerman's actions Cali_Democrat Apr 2012 #40

He Became Suspicious Of Trayvon Because Of His Skin Color DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #43

Hispanic is not a race. It is a cultural identity. nt MADem Apr 2012 #39

OK then he's white. Cali_Democrat Apr 2012 #41

I understand that's how he identifies. The Sanford PD identified him thusly, too. nt MADem Apr 2012 #44

OK so Zimmerman is a white man. SaltyBro Apr 2012 #46

So you think Zimmerman committed a hate crime? Cali_Democrat Apr 2012 #49

Absolutely if he stalked and murdered Trayvon based on his skin colour SaltyBro Apr 2012 #50

Thank you -- so many people don't get that obamanut2012 Apr 2012 #91

He's "white enough" for some of the, ah, classier people discussing this. (nt) Posteritatis Apr 2012 #132

Just out of curiosity what does that mean? Generic Other Apr 2012 #185

The term's not an absolute; people who're going to think in those terms will shift it around Posteritatis Apr 2012 #186

The goal post usually doesn't move in the direction of inclusiveness though Generic Other Apr 2012 #187

My point is that it technically isn't moving that way Posteritatis Apr 2012 #189

For some people, that's the point. TheWraith Apr 2012 #2

Some are merely protecting system that allows this type thing, bigotry, SYG, relaxed gun laws, etc. Hoyt Apr 2012 #8

Your continued obsession with guns and gun owners is always appreciated. TheWraith Apr 2012 #62

Zimmerman would have gotten away with it if Martin's family had not raised a huge stink.. Fumesucker Apr 2012 #81

You mean the poll that shows majority oppose guns in church, workplace, stores, etc. Hoyt Apr 2012 #88

Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson called for Zimmerman to be arrested. GoCubsGo Apr 2012 #4

That's One Of Zimmerman's Defenders Red Herrings DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #5

This message was self-deleted by its author ieoeja Apr 2012 #94

How about defending your rights? Life Long Dem Apr 2012 #6

What Part Of DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #9

The part where you turn it into street justice. Life Long Dem Apr 2012 #11

Where In My Posts Did I Say He Should Be Denied Due Process Or Subject To "Street Justice" DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #14

You found him guilty already Life Long Dem Apr 2012 #20

No. Because I'm Not Sitting On The Jury DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #23

Okay, I can deal with that kind of talk. Life Long Dem Apr 2012 #25

I Am Just Sharing My Opinion On A Bulletin Board DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #28

There are probably people out there that never heard of Zimmerman. Life Long Dem Apr 2012 #42

Personally, I think he'll be found guilty. bayareamike Apr 2012 #13

hm... bigapple Apr 2012 #10

Didn't The Dispatcher Ask Zimmerman Not To Follow Martin? DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #12

yup bigapple Apr 2012 #15

If Martin Made Zimmerman Fear For His Life Why Did He Follow Him? DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #21

according bigapple Apr 2012 #26

Remember Zimmerman Was Not Wearing A Uniform DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #31

yup bigapple Apr 2012 #37

Again. There Is Prima Facie Evidence That Zimmerman Used Lethal Force Against An Unarmed Person DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #45

yes bigapple Apr 2012 #51

Seems to me the only person that night with the right to defend himself was Martin. baldguy Apr 2012 #63

This message was self-deleted by its author Proud Liberal Dem Apr 2012 #17

why bigapple Apr 2012 #22

Zimmerman Is The One Who Used Lethal Force After He Followed Trayvon Martin And Confronted Him DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #27

well bigapple Apr 2012 #30

If Zimmerman's Head Was Beaten Into The Ground Why Was There No CT Scan Or Hospitalization? DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #35

maybe bigapple Apr 2012 #47

Do You Find It Peculiar That Somebody Who Had Their "Head Bashed In" Would Decline Medical Treatment DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #53

I'm sure bigapple Apr 2012 #56

you keep digging for excuses.. frylock Apr 2012 #126

what part is unbelievable? bigapple Apr 2012 #135

the part where you continue to invent scenarios that favor zimmerman.. frylock Apr 2012 #172

you should know that you have it backwards hfojvt Apr 2012 #60

Being A Resident Of Twin Lakes And A Neighborhood Watch Official DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #90

Zimmerman apologists are all racist shimonitanegi Apr 2012 #18

perhaps bigapple Apr 2012 #24

Yeah right shimonitanegi Apr 2012 #29

not really bigapple Apr 2012 #32

they have already changed stories multiple times , should we not judge Bush JI7 Apr 2012 #33

Bush, Cheney et al will never face justice SaltyBro Apr 2012 #48

Do You Follow Strangers Around At Night And What Is Their Reaction? DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #34

no I don't bigapple Apr 2012 #52

No But It Is Certainly Imprudent DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #54

Martin had the right to "stand your ground" bigapple Apr 2012 #58

Considering that Martin is the one who's dead ... I think that qualifies as "grevious harm". baldguy Apr 2012 #65

but bigapple Apr 2012 #86

Still trying to defend Zimmerman? baldguy Apr 2012 #177

i think one might reasonably fear an altercation at that point.. frylock Apr 2012 #128

but bigapple Apr 2012 #136

Yes. Of course one could. uppityperson Apr 2012 #140

based bigapple Apr 2012 #146

History. For me, being female, different history than being young and black. uppityperson Apr 2012 #150

so bigapple Apr 2012 #157

Whoosh go the goal posts. It depends on the situation. uppityperson Apr 2012 #159

what goalposts? bigapple Apr 2012 #162

No, you ask "could one be in reasonable fear of mortal harm just because someone is following you?" uppityperson Apr 2012 #164

but bigapple Apr 2012 #167

Yes, he had the right. It doesn't mean he did. The only evidence of this is Zimmy's changing story. uppityperson Apr 2012 #182

is this supposed to be some zen bullshit? frylock Apr 2012 #142

maybe bigapple Apr 2012 #145

at which point SYG is no longer valid.. frylock Apr 2012 #149

it would be simple self-defense. bigapple Apr 2012 #155

Whoosh go the goal posts. uppityperson Apr 2012 #158

i don't believe for a damn second that Z's head was being pounded into the ground.. frylock Apr 2012 #166

other than bigapple Apr 2012 #168

are you stating that a police WITNESSED zimmerman having is head beat into the ground? frylock Apr 2012 #170

You mean the police reporting what Zimmy told them? That "evidence"? uppityperson Apr 2012 #184

If His Head Was Concussed Why Didn't He Seek Medical Treatment? (Reprise) DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #169

It depends what the responsibility pipoman Apr 2012 #66

This Is Where The Pro Zimmerman Crowd Throws Up Smoke DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #69

I had someone detained by police for following me around at night obamanut2012 Apr 2012 #93

maybe bigapple Apr 2012 #104

Following someone at night with a loaded gun shimonitanegi Apr 2012 #57

dumb bigapple Apr 2012 #59

It Became Illegal When He Shot An Unarmed Kid In The Chest DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #83

actually bigapple Apr 2012 #85

That could be, but then the person wouldn't be a treestar Apr 2012 #82

Define Zimmerman apologist, please. Skip Intro Apr 2012 #113

Attacking George Zimmerman for his actions steps directly on a fantasy the NRA uses applegrove Apr 2012 #36

I don't know if he's guilty of a crime, but I know that what he did was wrong slackmaster Apr 2012 #38

Come on now, you get it! rufus dog Apr 2012 #55

What don't you get? hfojvt Apr 2012 #61

What happened between "confronted" and "killed" was Martin trying to defend himself. baldguy Apr 2012 #64

Martin Was Armed With A Bag Of Skittles And A Can Of Arizona Ice Tea DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #70

Defending himself against what? Taitertots Apr 2012 #74

What evidence has come out to support your assertion Trayvon "striking first"? uppityperson Apr 2012 #122

Perhaps Zimmerman Isn't The Only "Profiler" DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #181

trayvon didn't shoot first either.. frylock Apr 2012 #130

there bigapple Apr 2012 #139

wow, no shit? frylock Apr 2012 #144

it bigapple Apr 2012 #147

Zimmy refused aid at the scene and that was put in a report later, not initially. uppityperson Apr 2012 #153

full service laundry too.. frylock Apr 2012 #154

cleaned up bigapple Apr 2012 #156

cleaned up blood from a broken nose and shooting a guy perched on his chest.. frylock Apr 2012 #165

Sounds Like OJ Getting Rid Of His Blood Stained Clothes DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #171

See Above. Rufus Answered It DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #68

What is not to get? Taitertots Apr 2012 #67

I Believe The Independent Evidence Which Points To His Guilt And Not His Uncorroborated Statements DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #71

None of those things would indicate that he is guilty Taitertots Apr 2012 #73

Did You Expect Zimmerman To Just Say DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #76

Murderers Always Make Stupid, Self Serving Claims Because Their Victims Can't Testify DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #77

Ok, now do you have any evidence that disproves any of his claims? Taitertots Apr 2012 #78

We Have The Testimony Of His Girlfriend Where Trayvon Says He Is Being Stalked DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #79

You are incorrectly using the term "Stalked" Taitertots Apr 2012 #84

Do You Have Any Independent Evidence That Zimmerman Was Retreating? DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #89

I Guess It Depends On What The Meaning Of Is, Errrr, Stalk, Is DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #95

Zimmerman witnessed the events and nothing disproves his account n/t Taitertots Apr 2012 #96

He Was An Actor In The Event. DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #98

His actions never reached the legal definition of stalking Taitertots Apr 2012 #101

How Is The Recommendation Of A Police Official Irrelevant ? DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #106

for goodness sake bigapple Apr 2012 #109

Because you are under no obligation to follow their suggestions n/t Taitertots Apr 2012 #110

If He Followed Their Suggestion There Would Be One Less Dead Black Kid DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #173

Zimmy Wouldn't Be In A Jail Cell Crying Himself To Sleeep DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #190

Man, Is That Weak ProfessorGAC Apr 2012 #119

+++++ uppityperson Apr 2012 #124

Travon had every right to stand his ground bigapple Apr 2012 #87

Was Martin riding a unicorn made of jelly beans? We don't know Taitertots Apr 2012 #92

Do You Have Any Evidence Beside George Zimmerman's Testimony That Martin Attacked Him DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #97

ok bigapple Apr 2012 #99

Daniel Webster And His Successors Disagree With You DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #102

fortunately bigapple Apr 2012 #107

Yes. And That's Why George Zimmerman Is Crying Himself To Bed At Night In A Seminole County Jail DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #111

Daniel Webster And His Successors Disagree With You DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #102

No, it doesn't need to be repeated. Once-off following can be stalking. uppityperson Apr 2012 #125

You are incorrectly calling his actions "stalking" Taitertots Apr 2012 #105

Zimmy's "testimony is perfectly valid evidence"? Seriously? A defendant's testimony is uppityperson Apr 2012 #127

We Should Just Let Every Defendant Go Because They All Or Almost All Say They Are Innocent.. DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #174

You got it! Amazing, isn't it? uppityperson Apr 2012 #183

Ok, now do you have any evidence that proves any of his claims? uppityperson Apr 2012 #123

I don't defend Zimmerman per se but ctaylors6 Apr 2012 #80

You lost me at "certainly not guilty". ieoeja Apr 2012 #114

What did Zimmerman do that gave Martin legal justification to attack him? n/t Taitertots Apr 2012 #115

"Provoke" and "legal justification" are two different things. ieoeja Apr 2012 #116

but bigapple Apr 2012 #118

I think I see where you're coming from. ieoeja Apr 2012 #121

What proof is there that Tray attacked him?Beyond his "testimony is perfectly valid evidence" uppityperson Apr 2012 #129

you don't know that martin attacked zimmerman.. frylock Apr 2012 #133

martin's parents, the prosecuter, and circumstantial evidence.. frylock Apr 2012 #131

ok bigapple Apr 2012 #134

You mean when Trayvon's mom clarified what she meant by "accident" when she realized she wasn't uppityperson Apr 2012 #137

i've seen the video.. frylock Apr 2012 #138

you're the one bigapple Apr 2012 #141

oh really bigapple Apr 2012 #143

did they launder his shirt as well? frylock Apr 2012 #148

First aid responders do laundry? Wow. Ours don't. I've got to move to Florida uppityperson Apr 2012 #152

hey look bigapple Apr 2012 #160

I see a depression that looks old. No blood. No bandage. No welt. uppityperson Apr 2012 #163

LOL. This thread attracted a few Zimmerman defenders. Solomon Apr 2012 #72

If it were their child..... JNelson6563 Apr 2012 #75

He definitely looks really guilty to me, ZombieHorde Apr 2012 #100

You're presuming that he profiled, stalked and confronted. Yo_Mama Apr 2012 #108

"Zimmerman Defender" seems an unfair term to me. Skip Intro Apr 2012 #112

"Zimmerman Denial" Hasn't Reached The Level Of Holocaust Denial (Yet) DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #176

well-said Vattel Apr 2012 #180

It is easy to understand: they are RACIST, pure and simple. LaydeeBug Apr 2012 #117

I get them. Iggo Apr 2012 #120

Presumed innocent in the court of law... WillParkinson Apr 2012 #151

thank you bigapple Apr 2012 #161

You Should Petition Skinner To Prohibit All Zimmerman Threads Since We Don't Have All The Facts DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #175

For what reason? WillParkinson Apr 2012 #178

Based On The Evidence In The Public Domain The Profiling Aspect Gives It A Particularly Noxious Feel DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2012 #179

Hey, Bush was sure there were WMD's in Iraq and I give him the benefit of doubt Quixote1818 Apr 2012 #188