General Discussion

bravenak

(34,648 posts)

267. You proved nothing except that some people agree with you.

Sun Nov 16, 2014, 02:01 AM

Nov 2014

Does not make my use of the word sexist. Sorry. I was describing what you were doing. You were bossing people around all day long. Very forcefully telling them they did not belong here. Telling me what not to say. Deriding people. Bullying. Own it. Don't hide from yourself.

Google the song Bossy. That's how I use the word. Don't care what a bunch of rich ladies say. That word is not holding me down. In my culture strong women are respected. We head the family. And yes, I'm bossy my damn self. It is a good thing. I run my own program and I'll run other's too if they let me.

Keep feeling beatdown by the word bossy. I bet you would just shrivel if you got called half the names I have been called if this is the worst thing in the world to you.

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The Primary Process is already over.....even before it has begun. [View all] mylye2222 Nov 2014 OP

That's called an "assumptive close" sales technique Electric Monk Nov 2014 #1

Nah. That's just wishful thinking. djean111 Nov 2014 #2

Not declaring....FACING FACTS VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #3

Of course I do want to win. mylye2222 Nov 2014 #6

then now is not the time to try to draw to an inside straight. VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #7

So - do you think we should just not have primaries, and anoint Hillary right now? djean111 Nov 2014 #8

NO I am saying...SHE is the front-runner...for now SHE is the candidate to beat.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #9

So you are declaring her the winner before the primaries begin, hoping that no one will djean111 Nov 2014 #10

Kick to you djean111 mylye2222 Nov 2014 #11

I am declaring her our best chance to keep a Republican OUT of the Whitehouse in 2016! VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #14

Good for you, but that does not mean that others cannot prefer someone else, and it does not mean djean111 Nov 2014 #15

they can "prefer" all they want...but they don't stand the chance..... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #17

Can you answer my question - do you think we should just skip the primaries? djean111 Nov 2014 #19

The Primary will happen....but Hillary is the very likely winner.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #20

Then - I should think you could relax and stop with the constant jeers and djean111 Nov 2014 #22

Why not...I SUPPORT the winner! VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #23

No, We do not NEED Hillary Clinton. pangaia Nov 2014 #30

YES we do....WE NEED to win....and she has the evidence to show she can beat them all VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #33

We need a WINNER. pangaia Nov 2014 #36

she is Progressive... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #41

Nice chart. pangaia Nov 2014 #50

backed up with evidence.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #52

HEE HEE,,,, pangaia Nov 2014 #69

Its copy and paste of her entire record summarized...DUH! VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #70

Have you ever met Clinton? pangaia Nov 2014 #72

and? You ever slept on her sofabed? VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #74

I didn't ask if you slept on her sofa, for pete's sake. pangaia Nov 2014 #76

because what you said made no fucking sense.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #77

fucking sense? pangaia Nov 2014 #79

why not? VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #88

I've told this part of this story here at DU before. pangaia Nov 2014 #111

and how does that even fucking matter... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #201

AARGGGHH!! pangaia Nov 2014 #293

The list is a scam, it gives points no matter what position is taken TheKentuckian Nov 2014 #303

Only Hillary can cave us davidpdx Nov 2014 #116

The big question are mylye2222 Nov 2014 #25

because Independents think they are in charge of the Democratic party on DU! VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #34

So tell me.. mylye2222 Nov 2014 #39

I am okay with Democrats winning the next election.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #42

Well we will not niw if she is the best mylye2222 Nov 2014 #48

We do know... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #56

The BEST requires at least 2. pangaia Nov 2014 #295

Then you really don't undersrand US politics. Scootaloo Nov 2014 #58

Yes I really do.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #60

No, I'm not; 54% of them stay home on election days Scootaloo Nov 2014 #66

You are also not like the other 46% either.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #67

And kinda bossy. bravenak Nov 2014 #73

and that sounds kinda sexist.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #75

Yes I do. bravenak Nov 2014 #80

Yeah...I am sure you do... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #81

Did I call you a Bitch? bravenak Nov 2014 #84

did I say you did? VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #89

Umm hmmm. bravenak Nov 2014 #94

Yes it IS sexist....for the very reasons I laid out... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #95

You are wrong. bravenak Nov 2014 #96

No I am right as rain... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #97

You are not being assertive. bravenak Nov 2014 #99

and yet you still used that word.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #101

I can decide for myself which words apply. bravenak Nov 2014 #103

that is the definition all right.....BUT usage is normally to belittle women....FACT! VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #104

Yeah. Maybe in your eyes. bravenak Nov 2014 #106

Mine and those that contributed to that Guardian article.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #107

They weren't here for this one. bravenak Nov 2014 #108

I was..... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #109

You proved nothing except that you are overbearing. bravenak Nov 2014 #112

Nice backpedal! VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #114

I don't care what thing you brought up so that you could later 'prove' it existed. bravenak Nov 2014 #122

of course YOU don't....I hope you learned something from the experience... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #123

To you. bravenak Nov 2014 #126

to everyone....it is a derogatory term used to demean women...it is almost never used against men VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #130

Except I call dudes bossy whenever they are. bravenak Nov 2014 #134

riooght....I soooo believe you.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #135

Are you demanding something of me? bravenak Nov 2014 #136

Just stating the facts Ma'm VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #137

So you decide how a black woman needs to speak? bravenak Nov 2014 #138

did I say something that had anything to do with race? VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #139

Yes. I am trying to say something. bravenak Nov 2014 #141

then don't use sexist terms...and you won't get that pointed out to you.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #142

Your sex had nothing to do with what I said, but you brought it up. bravenak Nov 2014 #144

Yes it did and I had 2 articles to prove it...one from Time even Said "even if you are a woman" VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #147

You a faking sexism to win an argument. bravenak Nov 2014 #154

Not faking....pointing out the obvious....you are just busy denying what I said was true.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #156

I pointed out what you were doing. bravenak Nov 2014 #158

No you didn't you used a sexist slur and refused to withdraw it....even in light of evidence to VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #161

Tell yourself whatever makes yourself feel good about yourself. bravenak Nov 2014 #172

I didnt have to tell myself, obviously I already knew it...I told you.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #174

Your opinion articles? bravenak Nov 2014 #175

Opinion articles in Time and the Guardian? VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #176

That doesn't make the opinion that saying the word bossy is sexist, fact. bravenak Nov 2014 #178

Michelle Obama seems to think so.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #179

I do not care what someone else thinks. bravenak Nov 2014 #181

and if a racist said that.....would you be impressed with the response? VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #182

You have already corrected my speech like a slave today, so... bravenak Nov 2014 #183

No I corrected a sexist term you used..... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #184

I love white ladies correcting me all the time. bravenak Nov 2014 #185

this has nothing to do with your race or mine.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #186

They never ever realize how rude and insulting it is for us to be told what words we are allowed to bravenak Nov 2014 #188

do you think Condoleeza Rice, Michelle Obama and Beyonce are trying to be rude and insulting VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #189

No. You are using them to try to get to me emotionally because they are black. bravenak Nov 2014 #190

Nope....but you are still in denial.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #191

Sorry. Don't agree. bravenak Nov 2014 #192

Of course you don't....that is what a sexist would say....and I don't think you ARE one...but... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #193

I have had racists tell me what words to use. bravenak Nov 2014 #194

and I have had sexists do the same.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #195

Funny I don't care what words YOU use. You are more concerned about my word usage. bravenak Nov 2014 #196

oh....now it becomes "bully" VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #200

You are a bully. bravenak Nov 2014 #202

And you use sexist terms! VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #204

And you are overbearing and attack and bully people who don't agree with you. bravenak Nov 2014 #207

Yeah that is what people say when they get proven wrong. VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #208

Poor you. bravenak Nov 2014 #211

No poor you..... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #212

There, there. You'll feel better soon.. bravenak Nov 2014 #214

I didnt use force....unless you call supporting evidence as force... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #215

Sure... bravenak Nov 2014 #217

Nope just being right..... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #221

You wish. bravenak Nov 2014 #225

I know...and I proved it... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #228

You are too funny!!! bravenak Nov 2014 #230

Happily right....and happily have Michelle Obama agreeing with me... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #231

Still laughing. bravenak Nov 2014 #233

Do what you want....but if you don't want to be associated with sexism.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #234

Then you need to watch the way you tell black women what words they are allowed to use. bravenak Nov 2014 #235

Your race had nothing to do with it....I keep telling you that.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #236

I don't believe you now. bravenak Nov 2014 #237

I definitely would if they called a woman that term.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #239

And I won't let you off the hook either. bravenak Nov 2014 #240

You definitely would....you must not know my reputation.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #241

I am wondering why you are so worried about my use of that word. bravenak Nov 2014 #242

why backwoodsbob Nov 2014 #305

again...do I have to find poor women to make you a believer? VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #223

I am a poor woman. bravenak Nov 2014 #226

there is no winner or loser...just right or wrong...or are you the ONLY poor woman in the world? VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #227

You are just wrong. bravenak Nov 2014 #229

YEA !!!!!!!!!!! pangaia Nov 2014 #297

uppity? SwampG8r Nov 2014 #218

I used it to show a similarity...nothing to do with Hillary in this case.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #220

I'm going to follow this one. :>))) pangaia Nov 2014 #296

It's not easy at all. bravenak Nov 2014 #312

Yea, I could tell. That's why I kept reading. pangaia Nov 2014 #313

I can't believe she tried to tell you what words you could use. Rex Nov 2014 #314

I found it quite revealing, indeed I did. bravenak Nov 2014 #315

The choices are not here yet! LawDeeDah Nov 2014 #87

Oh so there are no names being floated about at all!!!! VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #102

I could float Gilligans name. So what. LawDeeDah Nov 2014 #148

and what are Gilligans polling numbers? VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #150

actually, I would choose Gilligan LawDeeDah Nov 2014 #152

Again....then you are not a Democrat....so why should Democrats give a rats ass what you think VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #155

and you are not a... ummm, Florist! LawDeeDah Nov 2014 #157

I know who you are now too..... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #159

what primary, what teleport into the future you have there? LawDeeDah Nov 2014 #165

are you a loyal Democrat...or a Fair Weather Independent? VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #167

I have independent thoughts, is that okay with you? LawDeeDah Nov 2014 #170

an Independent... guilty as charged... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #171

the I was not capitalized. LawDeeDah Nov 2014 #180

It doesn't matter...if you cannot confirm that you are committed to vote for whomever wins the VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #197

you are commited in thinking Hillary will win the primary LawDeeDah Nov 2014 #210

as I have said...many times over and over VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #213

Reality will show its face. LawDeeDah Nov 2014 #222

reality is accepting the truth.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #224

let's just revisit 2008, and revisit and visit again. LawDeeDah Nov 2014 #232

will you commit right now backwoodsbob Nov 2014 #307

I don't care about your thoughts....I care about whether or not you are a Democrat... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #286

You DO know that you are just one of the posters here, right? djean111 Nov 2014 #289

Just one period will suffice thanks. Union Scribe Nov 2014 #290

OMG...are you demanding loyalty oaths now? noiretextatique Nov 2014 #285

It is what it is....either you are a Democrat...or an Independent who leans Democrat... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #287

i am not a democrat noiretextatique Nov 2014 #306

I see the ghost of Joe McCarthy...wearing a clown suit. Comrade Grumpy Nov 2014 #308

How do you know she is not a florist? pangaia Nov 2014 #298

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Nov 2014 #216

Bingo. It's pure fear-mongering. arcane1 Nov 2014 #78

"Hillary Or The Apocalypse" mylye2222 Nov 2014 #82

Hillary or....what you got....that is still in single digits! VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #90

do you want Hillary or do you want zits? LawDeeDah Nov 2014 #93

zits or zilch....cause your polls are closer to zilch than to beating Hillary for the Primary.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #118

Yep, exactly davidpdx Nov 2014 #115

and who do you have up your sleeve? VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #120

I have a rude person who goes around thinking they know it all davidpdx Nov 2014 #125

Already calling me sexist. bravenak Nov 2014 #128

Yes, I know davidpdx Nov 2014 #132

Thank goodness I get amused rather than angry. bravenak Nov 2014 #133

Know the hell you don't VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #203

I called a term you used Sexist....not your opposition of Hillary! VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #199

The term is not sexist coming from me to you. bravenak Nov 2014 #205

Its not JUST coming from me..... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #206

You make demands where others make requests. bravenak Nov 2014 #209

No...I pointed it out...YOU refused to retract it no matter how much support I found VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #246

No retraction for truth. bravenak Nov 2014 #247

then okay...accept being thought of as sexist....and perpetuating the problem "Stockholm Syndrome"? VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #248

Don't tell me what to do. bravenak Nov 2014 #249

Its not me...its an entire campaign VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #250

And alot of bossy people like to control others. bravenak Nov 2014 #251

Yea...so do alot of racists, homophobes and misogynists... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #252

And latent racists like to correct black people above all others. All day long. bravenak Nov 2014 #253

anyone on this board would laugh at the very notion that you think that I am singling YOU out VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #256

I didn't even know you were a woman until you called me a sexist. bravenak Nov 2014 #257

and THAT proves my point! VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #258

You could have been a bossy man. bravenak Nov 2014 #259

Yeah right....sure...sure....makes perfect sense... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #260

A bossy one. bravenak Nov 2014 #261

but not a sexist one.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #262

Don't know that for sure. bravenak Nov 2014 #263

but we know someone is.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #264

You just tried to boss me out of using the word bossy. bravenak Nov 2014 #265

Nope...just proving a point to you.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #266

You proved nothing except that some people agree with you. bravenak Nov 2014 #267

an actual campaign against using the term...particularly against women VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #268

There is a campaign against weed. bravenak Nov 2014 #269

and then... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #270

Call me bossy and I pick up a clipboard and direct you. bravenak Nov 2014 #271

Sooo....if an African American uses the N word....does it make it acceptible? VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #272

I don't care. bravenak Nov 2014 #273

is it acceptable to use or not..... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #274

I don't care who uses it. bravenak Nov 2014 #275

but lots of other people DO....including little girls VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #276

I will do as I please. bravenak Nov 2014 #277

and so will racists and homophobes..... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #278

You should post a thread about bossy then and get a bunch of people to agree with you more. bravenak Nov 2014 #279

I don't have to...I have this VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #280

Good night. bravenak Nov 2014 #282

Being the boss is far removed from being called a sexist term... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #283

But never fear....the Rightwing agrees with your position... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #284

awww.....did I hurt your feelings because I don't agree with you? VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #146

Nope davidpdx Nov 2014 #162

Oh so are you actually going to claim you WEREN'T talking about me? VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #163

See my edited post davidpdx Nov 2014 #166

and this changes what I said how....here is what you said before you changed it: VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #169

Yes, because in the context I was talking about someone else who said something to another person davidpdx Nov 2014 #173

nothing up your sleeve! LawDeeDah Nov 2014 #143

front runner made by the media, that should ringy some bells. LawDeeDah Nov 2014 #86

front-runner made by polls... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #92

Front runner in What? LawDeeDah Nov 2014 #98

Among every known potential candidate for President in 2016 Democrat, Republican or Other.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #100

100. Among every known potential candidate for President in 2008 Democrat, Republican or Other.... LawDeeDah Nov 2014 #145

Yes exactly VanillaRhapsody Nov 2014 #153

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Nov 2014 #244

What does Hillary stand for? backwoodsbob Nov 2014 #291

She stands for herself. that is all. mylye2222 Nov 2014 #299

lmao-- it's 2014 and you want people to 'face the fact' that your Marr Nov 2014 #59

It's way too early to annoint Clinton. Politics change babylonsister Nov 2014 #91

LOL, Same as when she ran against Obama?? nt Logical Nov 2014 #198

More from one of our resident Pro NSA, pro 1984 "advocates". Katashi_itto Nov 2014 #302

Maybe Steven Colbert? nt 99th_Monkey Nov 2014 #4

Jon Stewart. pangaia Nov 2014 #31

But Colbert can turn out the TeaBagger Voters!! America!!! Fuck Yah!!! 99th_Monkey Nov 2014 #85

Yee hawww good point ...!! pangaia Nov 2014 #294

Fuck that if we can take away anything from Tuesday it's that we shouldn't take anything for granted craigmatic Nov 2014 #5

Martin O'Malley Aerows Nov 2014 #12

Not after the Maryland Governor's race... brooklynite Nov 2014 #110

Well, there is going to be somebody other than Hilary Aerows Nov 2014 #117

Right now she polls ahead of any potential Republican... brooklynite Nov 2014 #127

Like I said Aerows Nov 2014 #168

Don't forget that us Hillary supporters Gman Nov 2014 #13

Other people who werent named Clinton also wished to mylye2222 Nov 2014 #18

Gore had an incredibly easy primary muriel_volestrangler Nov 2014 #21

Anyway it's Hillary's turn Gman Nov 2014 #44

"it is my turn" = just like the Rmoney's. L0oniX Nov 2014 #47

Don't vote for her Gman Nov 2014 #55

So you are for the destruction of the Dem party ....thanks. L0oniX Nov 2014 #61

Did you forget the sarcasm thingy?? The new "let's forget the primary process" is alive and not well TheNutcracker Nov 2014 #301

Or Jeb Bush nt dflprincess Nov 2014 #219

You're joking, right? Cali_Democrat Nov 2014 #24

Serious as a heart attack. Gman Nov 2014 #46

LOL! HRC will fail to secure the nomination for 16 like she did before peacebird Nov 2014 #62

Turn??? bravenak Nov 2014 #26

I don't care if you support her or not Gman Nov 2014 #49

Except you need people my age to vote for your candidate in order to win. bravenak Nov 2014 #57

Your age group doesn't vote anyway. Gman Nov 2014 #64

I'm 33. I always vote. bravenak Nov 2014 #71

I think what was said to you was totally disrespectful davidpdx Nov 2014 #121

I am quite surprised at how little our generation's input is valued. bravenak Nov 2014 #124

... davidpdx Nov 2014 #129

I know. bravenak Nov 2014 #131

There are economics to politics Gman Nov 2014 #245

And vote count no matter how much money you have. bravenak Nov 2014 #254

what? DonCoquixote Nov 2014 #27

Pretty much because we feel that way Gman Nov 2014 #51

If everythign that people "felt that way" was good enough DonCoquixote Nov 2014 #119

I don't believe it is anybody's 'turn.' pangaia Nov 2014 #32

Hillary vs. Jeb davidn3600 Nov 2014 #16

The people obviously want to be ruled over / destroyed by the rich. L0oniX Nov 2014 #43

Hillary will likely win and tgat makes me happy but there will be a primary. hrmjustin Nov 2014 #28

If someone is intimidated by the clintons gwheezie Nov 2014 #29

Would LOVE to see Dean run again Niko Nov 2014 #35

...and couldn't figure out how to get people to vote for him. brooklynite Nov 2014 #113

perfzct job by the Clintons. yep. LawDeeDah Nov 2014 #37

Unrec L0oniX Nov 2014 #38

You have named eight Democrats* in nothing but a divisive way. onehandle Nov 2014 #40

Yes I have one. mylye2222 Nov 2014 #45

time for a donco Nov 2014 #53

We don't even need an election. Hillary has already won!!!!!!! Autumn Nov 2014 #54

LOL! Exactly, just like she won the primary for '08 before it happened! peacebird Nov 2014 #65

Exactly. I remember all that, I was a supporter then. Autumn Nov 2014 #68

Yep, until she wasn't. Autumn Nov 2014 #151

When a US congress, senate & POTUS will not punish banksters & war criminals, who will you vote for. L0oniX Nov 2014 #140

I'm not voting for another president who is for the 1%, banks, war and thinks republicans Autumn Nov 2014 #149

Out of all the current candidates, Hillary is the only one who's lost a pres. primary. :( Marr Nov 2014 #63

Yes, and so yesterday's news. Why not go with a real progressive who can excite the base? InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2014 #255

Joe Biden lost 2 primaries - 1988 and 2008 (nt) muriel_volestrangler Nov 2014 #292

I disagree. If Hillary runs she will be the overwhelming favorite, and if Bernie runs he will have still_one Nov 2014 #83

Yeah, being popular sure is a bummer, isn't it? brooklynite Nov 2014 #105

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Nov 2014 #160

* L0oniX Nov 2014 #164

creeepy LawDeeDah Nov 2014 #238

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Nov 2014 #243

How depressing nt fadedrose Nov 2014 #177

Still plenty of time for someone to woo the left wing. aikoaiko Nov 2014 #187

Umm... O'Malley? Schweitzer? Patrick? Rendell? Manchin? Baldwin? Klobuchar? McRaven? Recursion Nov 2014 #281

2016 Obama - Biden (Michelle & Jill) Reformed Bully Nov 2014 #288

So you're disappointed because a candidate is too good? rock Nov 2014 #300

Jeff Boss, Vermin Supreme and Robby Wells are currently the only declared candidates. Agnosticsherbet Nov 2014 #304

While I don't disagree with your assessment, LWolf Nov 2014 #309

2008 Old Nick Nov 2014 #310

You're assuming no other TBF Nov 2014 #311