General Discussion

joeglow3

(6,228 posts)

58. Okay, lets look at the points.

Tue Nov 18, 2014, 05:54 PM

Nov 2014

1. I call an 18 year old a man. However, you show exactly the critical thinking you put into waiting for analyzing facts when you make it clear you already know, in your head, how I would respond if the person were white. See, by claiming I am a racist, you can immediately discredit anything I say without having to address facts. It really is a fascinating defense mechanism.

2. The argument is now that Michael Brown leaned into the car because Wilson pulled it and ordered him to lean in through the window?

3. Michael Brown was 6 foot 4 and 292 pounds. From what I have seen, estimates are that Wilson is 6 foot 2 and he looks to be about 230-250 pounds. Ask anyone who has fought, wrestled, etc. and they will tell you a 40-60 pound weight difference is a big deal.

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You might want to re-think that comment you are about to post about Ferguson [View all] gollygee Nov 2014 OP

Yeah. That pretty much says what needs to be said. Jackpine Radical Nov 2014 #1

Wilson Caught On Video billhicks76 Nov 2014 #142

"The media" will go along with whatever their bosses say. Jackpine Radical Nov 2014 #206

Citizen Spy Drones billhicks76 Nov 2014 #266

Yes, absolutely. Jackpine Radical Nov 2014 #268

Keep Them Honest billhicks76 Nov 2014 #275

Anyone with two brain cells to rub together... Oktober Nov 2014 #2

the medical forensics tell us that Michael Brown was shot in the hand.. frylock Nov 2014 #3

inside the car maced666 Nov 2014 #13

Or a defensive wound, trying to shield himself REP Nov 2014 #14

+1 ReRe Nov 2014 #19

+2 kelliekat44 Nov 2014 #22

i agree, and that was my point frylock Nov 2014 #25

I'm agreeing :-) REP Nov 2014 #35

"No matter what, he was murdered.".. Hmmmmm ? OLDMADAM Nov 2014 #218

Which sounds like self defense. arcane1 Nov 2014 #37

If he was that close, residue from the gunshot would be on his hands and Nay Nov 2014 #51

That's one possibility, sure. But there are other... Adrahil Nov 2014 #91

Then maybe it should go to trial.nt gollygee Nov 2014 #215

Generally you don;t put people on trial because there is... Adrahil Nov 2014 #271

Maybe more than one gollygee Nov 2014 #4

It's also 100% consistent w/ the closest witness Nevernose Nov 2014 #123

That is certainly one interpretation... Oktober Nov 2014 #143

Such as the case of Alfred Wright? BklnDem75 Nov 2014 #255

Right... Oktober Nov 2014 #262

The bias factor is the point... BklnDem75 Nov 2014 #284

so waiting for facts is bad? hfojvt Nov 2014 #5

blithely ignoring the multitude of eyewitnesses who believe they saw a surrendering teenager and a bettyellen Nov 2014 #7

While others blithely ignore the multitude of eyewitnesses saying something different joeglow3 Nov 2014 #18

the only one saying he charged at Wilson- was not there. It's a third person account. bettyellen Nov 2014 #99

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the conclusion joeglow3 Nov 2014 #107

Various eyewitnesses have supported different versions... NaturalHigh Nov 2014 #52

not so different- those who saw no hands lifted missed part of it. people could not count shots bettyellen Nov 2014 #78

And eyewitness testimony is reliable? phil89 Nov 2014 #94

not for facial recognition- is THAT what you were thinking? LOL. No sale, he he he. bettyellen Nov 2014 #98

Eyewitness accounts for anything are extremly unreliable HERVEPA Nov 2014 #178

it's much more about remembering faces and small visual details. seeing something striking happen bettyellen Nov 2014 #261

Many said something different. 840high Nov 2014 #102

only NON- witnesses tell an essentially different story. people there did not all see all of it, bettyellen Nov 2014 #112

Might check cstanleytech Nov 2014 #139

I guess that depends on which worldveiw one is hoping their facts will support. cherokeeprogressive Nov 2014 #10

The fucking cops, KKK, FBI, DHS and various racists JEB Nov 2014 #23

How did Wilson's gun come to be out of its holster????? - nt KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #28

This is the question i keep asking!!!!!!!nt logosoco Nov 2014 #36

The pistol magically levitated its way out of the holster when KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #41

No. A police officer that was vastly smaller reached out the window joeglow3 Nov 2014 #49

He didn't need to grab a MUCH larger "man" by the throat or anything... Liberal_Stalwart71 Nov 2014 #55

This message was self-deleted by its author joeglow3 Nov 2014 #57

Okay, lets look at the points. joeglow3 Nov 2014 #58

the weight difference was dismissed noiretextatique Nov 2014 #146

Thank you JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #162

And I bet we'll find gollygee Nov 2014 #174

yep noiretextatique Nov 2014 #175

From your lips to God's ears! KitSileya Nov 2014 #223

Of course so! JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #176

Dorian Johnson's account said that Wilson grabbed Brown by the neck XemaSab Nov 2014 #203

I guess you don't watch a lot of kung fu movies. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Nov 2014 #181

I suspect (and it is only conjecture) Gore1FL Nov 2014 #144

Begs the question: what specific circumstance or set of circumstances caused KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #207

I suspect Wilson removed it and threatened Brown with it for effect. n/t Gore1FL Nov 2014 #213

With the gun holstered, Brown walks away with no more than a ticket for KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #227

Better question: How did that huge kid end up halfway in the driver's side window? simak Nov 2014 #158

Can you show me where it has been uncontested JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #163

Are you saying that's not Michael Brown in the video? simak Nov 2014 #173

No - why so angry and passionate? JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #177

I'm not angry. simak Nov 2014 #183

You just seemed ready to jump down my throat about it. . . JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #184

What about the wrongful death trial that he lost? n/t simak Nov 2014 #212

This sounds like you recognize that jurys gollygee Nov 2014 #214

Well the truth in that instance was JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #219

It sounded like gollygee Nov 2014 #220

I honestly don't know gollygee JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #221

I didn't mean to debate the OJ Simpson trial gollygee Nov 2014 #222

I would agree JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #225

This is a really good point - one I had not ever considered JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #226

Some of us recognize that, yes. n/t simak Nov 2014 #234

But that's about money JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #217

The store owner says there was no robbery, and he says the 911 call was from a tblue37 Nov 2014 #294

Johnson admitted it XemaSab Nov 2014 #307

This message was self-deleted by its author ollie4 Nov 2014 #328

here's the video ollie4 Nov 2014 #329

"Uncontested"??????? You've got to be joking. - nt KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #241

Depends on what you're contesting. simak Nov 2014 #245

Well, first of all, it's 'contested' whether there was any robbery at all, or whether Brown paid KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #247

So then it's not contested that he roughed up an employee on his way out? simak Nov 2014 #252

Dude, you're arguing with yourself. You originally said it was 'uncontested.' I KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #256

Not my intention. simak Nov 2014 #263

LOL noiretextatique Nov 2014 #62

"so waiting for facts is bad?" This is the DU, of course waiting for facts is bad because if we did cstanleytech Nov 2014 #138

it is a smokescreen noiretextatique Nov 2014 #145

Not all facts are equal, and many are irrelevant. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Nov 2014 #186

Ya you have people who saw some of what happened or atleast think they did cstanleytech Nov 2014 #216

Are you kidding? The DU Default is usually "We should wait for the VERDICT before we opine." WinkyDink Nov 2014 #230

The Ruling Oligarchy would love nothing more than to see a major uprising of the black community. rhett o rick Nov 2014 #6

Bingo!!! 2naSalit Nov 2014 #12

Except when the civil war itself leads to a revolution, a la the American Civil War. See KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #29

I am not familiar and would be interested in learning more. But just because the Ruling Oligarchs rhett o rick Nov 2014 #39

Oh absolutely. Not all civil wars lead to revolution and some even KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #44

Again, I need to read further on this, but seems to me that the American Civil War was rhett o rick Nov 2014 #46

Is the full title "Abraham Lincoln and the Second American Revolution?" csziggy Nov 2014 #76

Ah, shit, I screwed up in futzing around with those italics tags. You're absolutely correct and KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #82

That's OK - I wanted to make sure I had found the correct book csziggy Nov 2014 #88

Sadly, you may be right. AverageJoe90 Nov 2014 #48

I'm going to stick with: NaturalHigh Nov 2014 #8

Why do you say that? nichomachus Nov 2014 #15

I'll stick right there with you on this one. hamsterjill Nov 2014 #17

No sides on a grand jury dpibel Nov 2014 #32

You are correct, and I've edited my post accordingly. hamsterjill Nov 2014 #33

^^This^^ Puddy Nov 2014 #24

You have no idea what information the grand jury has. We may actually have more information than rhett o rick Nov 2014 #45

Eric Holders DOJ, the prosecutor and 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. have all the facts One_Life_To_Give Nov 2014 #87

He needs to be Federally indicted amd tries. No question about that. ncjustice80 Nov 2014 #134

For violation of civil rights? Oktober Nov 2014 #152

yeah...it happened in the 60's noiretextatique Nov 2014 #157

4th Amendment violation. ncjustice80 Nov 2014 #188

What 4A violation? GGJohn Nov 2014 #194

Unlawful seizure of the body via murder by a state actor. ncjustice80 Nov 2014 #290

Hopefully emotion like yours is kept as far away... Oktober Nov 2014 #211

No, hopefully Rethug kkk police apologists need to be kept away. ncjustice80 Nov 2014 #291

Bless your heart. GGJohn Nov 2014 #300

Aaaanndd we resort to personal attacks. Real mature. ncjustice80 Nov 2014 #308

+100 840high Nov 2014 #104

Unless we are on the Grand Jury yeoman6987 Nov 2014 #9

so you do not think jurors noiretextatique Nov 2014 #147

Does not have a bit to do with my reply. yeoman6987 Nov 2014 #155

Would that include Sherman A1 Nov 2014 #11

I disagree with only this one. dilby Nov 2014 #16

that's what I think as well. In fact, I think the last statement is bullshit. cali Nov 2014 #21

science cannot tell us if it appeared that Mike Brown was surrendering and not a danger- so anyone bettyellen Nov 2014 #120

Did you hear about the case in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina justiceischeap Nov 2014 #31

thank you. some people noiretextatique Nov 2014 #149

I do remember it JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #166

Remember Alfred Wright? BklnDem75 Nov 2014 #254

So you think that there's a valid comparison Erich Bloodaxe BSN Nov 2014 #189

There were eye witnesses that said the cop had a broken eye socket or whatever. dilby Nov 2014 #259

Um, no, there weren't. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Nov 2014 #264

Um here is a person who said they saw officer Wilson after the incident. dilby Nov 2014 #267

So if someone that wasn't there was lying... BklnDem75 Nov 2014 #289

You're linking to FOX news?! chervilant Nov 2014 #298

Several independent witnesses immediately had the same story gollygee Nov 2014 #304

Source? dpibel Nov 2014 #309

I read it over and over again when it was current gollygee Nov 2014 #313

IOW, you have no source dpibel Nov 2014 #315

IOW I've been reading tons of sources since the beginning gollygee Nov 2014 #316

OK I changed my mind gollygee Nov 2014 #318

Will you please be my personal Google assistant too? I"m lazy and cannot KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #319

Are we having a mutual misunderstanding? dpibel Nov 2014 #322

Oh I guess we are not understanding each other gollygee Nov 2014 #323

Some people actually believe the justice system works.. SomethingFishy Nov 2014 #20

Works for them. n/t. bvf Nov 2014 #27

Exactly. Because they're the oligarchy. Louisiana1976 Nov 2014 #86

it worked for OJ ollie4 Nov 2014 #153

it also worked for medgar evers' murderers noiretextatique Nov 2014 #169

US Navy brought down TWA800? One_Life_To_Give Nov 2014 #26

I will give your OP the thought that it deserves. Android3.14 Nov 2014 #30

Well, bullshit Lee-Lee Nov 2014 #34

Let's hope the ME's office isn't as corrupt as the Ferguson PD REP Nov 2014 #43

That sounds a lot like someone not interested in facts joeglow3 Nov 2014 #50

Oddly enough, the only person who can't tell his version of "the facts" is dead... Liberal_Stalwart71 Nov 2014 #56

I agree with both of those points. joeglow3 Nov 2014 #60

He may have been unarmed but his super-human mind rays caused that KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #61

just like Trayvon Martin, who not only had superhuman strength noiretextatique Nov 2014 #66

This is a specific and intentionally created stereotype gollygee Nov 2014 #132

correct eom noiretextatique Nov 2014 #135

Did you not read what I wrote? REP Nov 2014 #101

Fair enough. I jumped the gun and apologize. joeglow3 Nov 2014 #108

Since there were three autopsies, if the locl ME tried to cover up csziggy Nov 2014 #81

What happened to the clothing? REP Nov 2014 #103

Actually I don't know if the DOJ forensic team got access to the clothes csziggy Nov 2014 #111

I worry about that too noiretextatique Nov 2014 #150

AKA: "Conspiracy to obstruct justice" - nt KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #243

The facts would come out at a trial gollygee Nov 2014 #71

Think back Lee-Lee Nov 2014 #74

I remember gollygee Nov 2014 #79

Here's the youtube of those witnesses Little Star Nov 2014 #165

...^ that 840high Nov 2014 #106

Do you need to know that officer wilson was wearing brown socks that day? Erich Bloodaxe BSN Nov 2014 #190

Let me take it a step further JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #193

If the justice system worked Erich Bloodaxe BSN Nov 2014 #198

But Erich JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #199

Ya. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Nov 2014 #202

Me too JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #204

Hmmmm.... not a fan of silencing dissent... Adrahil Nov 2014 #38

"Witnesses tend to see what they want to see......." WillowTree Nov 2014 #42

True... And in this case... Adrahil Nov 2014 #90

Small technical point (but important): Wilson's right to the presumption of KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #64

Oh FFS, all grand juries are conducted this way all the time SickOfTheOnePct Nov 2014 #75

You're in error on matters large and small. First of all it is rare for potential KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #80

All grand juries are conducted in secret SickOfTheOnePct Nov 2014 #84

Funny how all the leaks from your supposedly 'secret' Grand Jury KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #119

"My" grand jury? SickOfTheOnePct Nov 2014 #121

My, you are quite the pedant, aren't you. It wasn't " 'your' KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #125

Thanks for the belly laugh SickOfTheOnePct Nov 2014 #126

This is the same guy who wants Pres. Obama to federalize the MO. NG to GGJohn Nov 2014 #131

Oh my n/t SickOfTheOnePct Nov 2014 #133

it is not unprecedented noiretextatique Nov 2014 #180

Did those troops disarm the local police like the poster suggested? GGJohn Nov 2014 #187

no, the feds could not do it noiretextatique Nov 2014 #280

I think the Ferguson PD should be disbanded and then constitute a new force GGJohn Nov 2014 #283

i agree noiretextatique Nov 2014 #287

+1,000 gollygee Nov 2014 #303

Did you actually hear the testimony? Adrahil Nov 2014 #93

a complete farce, with a predictable outcome noiretextatique Nov 2014 #159

Predictable given this shitstain of a DA McCulloch who is KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #205

Maybe the shooting was justified Niko Nov 2014 #40

Well then maybe there should be a trial. n/t gollygee Nov 2014 #72

And charge him with what? Niko Nov 2014 #77

Exactly! NaturalHigh Nov 2014 #116

If the GJ no billls Wilson, GGJohn Nov 2014 #127

That's the point gollygee Nov 2014 #129

Feds could try him on civil rights violation noiretextatique Nov 2014 #151

They could, but so far, but that's a high bar to hurdle. GGJohn Nov 2014 #179

possibly... noiretextatique Nov 2014 #278

That's a possible avenue to pursue, talk to the other officers who served with him GGJohn Nov 2014 #279

I did read an article in late August that descrtibed an incident between tblue37 Nov 2014 #295

Then maybe there will be a grand jury to decide that? ollie4 Nov 2014 #148

With all the clearly (I think) unjustified shootings Trayvon Martin, the guy in the Cincinnatti doc03 Nov 2014 #95

"the guy in the Cincinnati Walmart holding a toy gun" EX500rider Nov 2014 #265

There is no law against open carry in Ohio anyway. So if you go into Walmart and pick up one doc03 Nov 2014 #269

Purchasing one is not a problem.. EX500rider Nov 2014 #270

Did he take it out of a box? Even if he did there is no law against open carry in the state of Ohio doc03 Nov 2014 #272

Open carry is usually done in a holster or on a sling over your shoulder. EX500rider Nov 2014 #274

We had people in the last presidential campaign carrying semi-auto rifles to Obama's doc03 Nov 2014 #273

Good title, though flawed article. AverageJoe90 Nov 2014 #47

When it looks like a lynching, Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #53

Innocent until proven guilty? ollie4 Nov 2014 #156

too late for the black commumity noiretextatique Nov 2014 #160

You missed my point ollie4 Nov 2014 #191

It has JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #168

So, if you take innocent until proven guilty out of the equation..... ollie4 Nov 2014 #192

Depends JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #195

"Innocent until proven guilty" assumes that someone somewhere is trying to prove gollygee Nov 2014 #210

sounds like you have already made up your mind ollie4 Nov 2014 #235

I at no point said "guilty no matter what." gollygee Nov 2014 #239

Are you serious? ollie4 Nov 2014 #251

Are you serious? gollygee Nov 2014 #276

I would not doubt that there are differences in the conviction rate... ollie4 Nov 2014 #285

what conflicting evidence? Please elucidate Euphoria Nov 2014 #302

This message was self-deleted by its author ollie4 Nov 2014 #305

Just read the news, there is conflicting evidence ollie4 Nov 2014 #306

I have read the news dpibel Nov 2014 #310

Conflicting witnesses, Conflicting evidence ollie4 Nov 2014 #314

In which case, there should be a trial dpibel Nov 2014 #317

The grand jury will decide whether to indict ollie4 Nov 2014 #324

Words matter dpibel Nov 2014 #325

wow....just wow! ollie4 Nov 2014 #327

Of course.... ollie4 Nov 2014 #333

Well, here's the thing Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #209

then do you want de facto mob rule? ollie4 Nov 2014 #237

I am simply stating that Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #238

I was saying that innocent until proven guilty is a principle ollie4 Nov 2014 #253

Again, you are missing my point Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #260

Not an issue dpibel Nov 2014 #224

quibble if you want ollie4 Nov 2014 #236

Not the entire system though - Not all Americans JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #258

This whole bullshit ordeal was about onecaliberal Nov 2014 #54

And clearly a lot of people here are drinking the cool-aid. Solomon Nov 2014 #59

absolutely...which is why the OP is correct noiretextatique Nov 2014 #65

These folks insisting on 'waiting for the facts' remind me of a former Nixon's supporters, they who KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #68

coincidentally noiretextatique Nov 2014 #69

Coincidentally gollygee Nov 2014 #85

+1 gollygee Nov 2014 #117

So you want to eliminate grand juries? hack89 Nov 2014 #100

I said nothing about eliminating grand juries. Solomon Nov 2014 #161

You asserted that Wilson should go to trial hack89 Nov 2014 #170

He killed a man by shooting him multiple times. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Nov 2014 #196

And all those witnesses testified at the grand jury hack89 Nov 2014 #208

But, as I suggest in another comment Erich Bloodaxe BSN Nov 2014 #228

The legal standard for justified homicide is clear hack89 Nov 2014 #229

How did Wilson's gun come to be out of its holster????? - nt KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #246

Anti-gravitational mutant abilities. Rex Nov 2014 #248

Ask the grand jury hack89 Nov 2014 #257

We know what the witnesses saw. onecaliberal Nov 2014 #124

+1000 noiretextatique Nov 2014 #63

I would qualify 1, 2, and 4 Man from Pickens Nov 2014 #67

what about the larger issue of a history of police violence against african-americans noiretextatique Nov 2014 #73

Wilson is not on trial for killing Danroy Henry, nor for beating Rodney King One_Life_To_Give Nov 2014 #277

did i say he was responsible? noiretextatique Nov 2014 #288

And, so the dance continues... chervilant Nov 2014 #296

i like it noiretextatique Nov 2014 #301

No matter what the gtand jury decides, Jenoch Nov 2014 #70

One can hope! murray hill farm Nov 2014 #96

Though I agree with and support the protestors in Ferguson, ZombieHorde Nov 2014 #83

Conclusions in autopsies can be opinions subject to bias, however. kwassa Nov 2014 #89

I agree with that. ZombieHorde Nov 2014 #92

The problem, though, is that autopsies only tell you a limited amount. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Nov 2014 #201

It's sad that because of the way it looks like the grand jury won't indict, there won't be a Louisiana1976 Nov 2014 #97

I understand your feelings, but we don't know all the facts Wella Nov 2014 #105

Eyewitness testimony is actually pretty unreliable in studies mythology Nov 2014 #109

Several independent people had pretty much the same story right away gollygee Nov 2014 #113

for FACIAL RECOGNITION, yes- but that has no bearing here for fucks sake..... bettyellen Nov 2014 #114

Zimmerman all over again. nt gollygee Nov 2014 #115

My speculation on what went down that day. Rex Nov 2014 #110

So he just got mad phil89 Nov 2014 #240

Yeah that happens all the time, people snap and do stupid things. Rex Nov 2014 #242

No, he didn't "just get mad because a kid laughed at him." That was the KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #250

The first thing Wilson got angry about . . . (maybe) not being able to score KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #249

I agree with points 2 and 3. The first and last ones, not at all. Captain Stern Nov 2014 #118

We are hungry for a case that exposes everything wrong with Ferguson, and with America... Orsino Nov 2014 #122

The only thing to say tooeyeten Nov 2014 #128

+1 gollygee Nov 2014 #130

The white doctor? ConservativeDemocrat Nov 2014 #136

I suppose the idea is noiretextatique Nov 2014 #154

He was hired by the FAMILY of Brown ConservativeDemocrat Nov 2014 #330

the FIRST autopsy, conservative, reality-based person noiretextatique Nov 2014 #331

God, what a bunch of scary bullshit TorchTheWitch Nov 2014 #137

welcome to america noiretextatique Nov 2014 #164

Fair point JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #182

or noiretextatique Nov 2014 #281

That guy cracks me up! JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #286

LOL. Solomon Nov 2014 #167

And we already know: there will be no trial noiretextatique Nov 2014 #171

Not in our life times JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #185

All I'd say is it was NOT a "good shoot" as cops call it.... Spitfire of ATJ Nov 2014 #140

And this just in from CNN - truedelphi Nov 2014 #141

sad, but true noiretextatique Nov 2014 #172

Correct me if I am wrong please but cstanleytech Nov 2014 #232

You bring up some decent legal points. truedelphi Nov 2014 #292

The powerful always help their friends but that doesnt mean that their porn viewing habits cstanleytech Nov 2014 #293

Here is the relevance - the porn websites were shared with each other - truedelphi Nov 2014 #297

I see a problem. cstanleytech Nov 2014 #299

I see the same problem that you do. Which is why I wrote truedelphi Nov 2014 #332

Two justice System. Two Americas. Wilson will NEVER be tried! Period Farmbrook Nov 2014 #197

Thank you JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #200

you get no argument from me noiretextatique Nov 2014 #311

Oh, dear. Here we go again with the "Nobody can have an opinion except for the jury" crowd. WinkyDink Nov 2014 #231

Facts tend to outweigh opinion though and the fact is that our opinions cstanleytech Nov 2014 #233

and neither do facts, really noiretextatique Nov 2014 #282

well...it's because the grand jury has all the facts noiretextatique Nov 2014 #312

Also gollygee Nov 2014 #320

McCullough has promised to release the entire transcript from the Grand Jury proceedings. Red State Rebel Nov 2014 #321

yes...that ill be very interesting noiretextatique Nov 2014 #326

Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2014 #244