General Discussion

gollygee

(22,336 posts)

79. I remember

Reply to Lee-Lee (Reply #74)

Tue Nov 18, 2014, 07:09 PM

Nov 2014

several indepdendant witnesses all saying right away that he was shot when his hands were up and he was surrendering.

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You might want to re-think that comment you are about to post about Ferguson [View all] gollygee Nov 2014 OP

Yeah. That pretty much says what needs to be said. Jackpine Radical Nov 2014 #1

Wilson Caught On Video billhicks76 Nov 2014 #142

"The media" will go along with whatever their bosses say. Jackpine Radical Nov 2014 #206

Citizen Spy Drones billhicks76 Nov 2014 #266

Yes, absolutely. Jackpine Radical Nov 2014 #268

Keep Them Honest billhicks76 Nov 2014 #275

Anyone with two brain cells to rub together... Oktober Nov 2014 #2

the medical forensics tell us that Michael Brown was shot in the hand.. frylock Nov 2014 #3

inside the car maced666 Nov 2014 #13

Or a defensive wound, trying to shield himself REP Nov 2014 #14

+1 ReRe Nov 2014 #19

+2 kelliekat44 Nov 2014 #22

i agree, and that was my point frylock Nov 2014 #25

I'm agreeing :-) REP Nov 2014 #35

"No matter what, he was murdered.".. Hmmmmm ? OLDMADAM Nov 2014 #218

Which sounds like self defense. arcane1 Nov 2014 #37

If he was that close, residue from the gunshot would be on his hands and Nay Nov 2014 #51

That's one possibility, sure. But there are other... Adrahil Nov 2014 #91

Then maybe it should go to trial.nt gollygee Nov 2014 #215

Generally you don;t put people on trial because there is... Adrahil Nov 2014 #271

Maybe more than one gollygee Nov 2014 #4

It's also 100% consistent w/ the closest witness Nevernose Nov 2014 #123

That is certainly one interpretation... Oktober Nov 2014 #143

Such as the case of Alfred Wright? BklnDem75 Nov 2014 #255

Right... Oktober Nov 2014 #262

The bias factor is the point... BklnDem75 Nov 2014 #284

so waiting for facts is bad? hfojvt Nov 2014 #5

blithely ignoring the multitude of eyewitnesses who believe they saw a surrendering teenager and a bettyellen Nov 2014 #7

While others blithely ignore the multitude of eyewitnesses saying something different joeglow3 Nov 2014 #18

the only one saying he charged at Wilson- was not there. It's a third person account. bettyellen Nov 2014 #99

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the conclusion joeglow3 Nov 2014 #107

Various eyewitnesses have supported different versions... NaturalHigh Nov 2014 #52

not so different- those who saw no hands lifted missed part of it. people could not count shots bettyellen Nov 2014 #78

And eyewitness testimony is reliable? phil89 Nov 2014 #94

not for facial recognition- is THAT what you were thinking? LOL. No sale, he he he. bettyellen Nov 2014 #98

Eyewitness accounts for anything are extremly unreliable HERVEPA Nov 2014 #178

it's much more about remembering faces and small visual details. seeing something striking happen bettyellen Nov 2014 #261

Many said something different. 840high Nov 2014 #102

only NON- witnesses tell an essentially different story. people there did not all see all of it, bettyellen Nov 2014 #112

Might check cstanleytech Nov 2014 #139

I guess that depends on which worldveiw one is hoping their facts will support. cherokeeprogressive Nov 2014 #10

The fucking cops, KKK, FBI, DHS and various racists JEB Nov 2014 #23

How did Wilson's gun come to be out of its holster????? - nt KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #28

This is the question i keep asking!!!!!!!nt logosoco Nov 2014 #36

The pistol magically levitated its way out of the holster when KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #41

No. A police officer that was vastly smaller reached out the window joeglow3 Nov 2014 #49

He didn't need to grab a MUCH larger "man" by the throat or anything... Liberal_Stalwart71 Nov 2014 #55

This message was self-deleted by its author joeglow3 Nov 2014 #57

Okay, lets look at the points. joeglow3 Nov 2014 #58

the weight difference was dismissed noiretextatique Nov 2014 #146

Thank you JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #162

And I bet we'll find gollygee Nov 2014 #174

yep noiretextatique Nov 2014 #175

From your lips to God's ears! KitSileya Nov 2014 #223

Of course so! JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #176

Dorian Johnson's account said that Wilson grabbed Brown by the neck XemaSab Nov 2014 #203

I guess you don't watch a lot of kung fu movies. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Nov 2014 #181

I suspect (and it is only conjecture) Gore1FL Nov 2014 #144

Begs the question: what specific circumstance or set of circumstances caused KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #207

I suspect Wilson removed it and threatened Brown with it for effect. n/t Gore1FL Nov 2014 #213

With the gun holstered, Brown walks away with no more than a ticket for KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #227

Better question: How did that huge kid end up halfway in the driver's side window? simak Nov 2014 #158

Can you show me where it has been uncontested JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #163

Are you saying that's not Michael Brown in the video? simak Nov 2014 #173

No - why so angry and passionate? JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #177

I'm not angry. simak Nov 2014 #183

You just seemed ready to jump down my throat about it. . . JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #184

What about the wrongful death trial that he lost? n/t simak Nov 2014 #212

This sounds like you recognize that jurys gollygee Nov 2014 #214

Well the truth in that instance was JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #219

It sounded like gollygee Nov 2014 #220

I honestly don't know gollygee JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #221

I didn't mean to debate the OJ Simpson trial gollygee Nov 2014 #222

I would agree JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #225

This is a really good point - one I had not ever considered JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #226

Some of us recognize that, yes. n/t simak Nov 2014 #234

But that's about money JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #217

The store owner says there was no robbery, and he says the 911 call was from a tblue37 Nov 2014 #294

Johnson admitted it XemaSab Nov 2014 #307

This message was self-deleted by its author ollie4 Nov 2014 #328

here's the video ollie4 Nov 2014 #329

"Uncontested"??????? You've got to be joking. - nt KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #241

Depends on what you're contesting. simak Nov 2014 #245

Well, first of all, it's 'contested' whether there was any robbery at all, or whether Brown paid KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #247

So then it's not contested that he roughed up an employee on his way out? simak Nov 2014 #252

Dude, you're arguing with yourself. You originally said it was 'uncontested.' I KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #256

Not my intention. simak Nov 2014 #263

LOL noiretextatique Nov 2014 #62

"so waiting for facts is bad?" This is the DU, of course waiting for facts is bad because if we did cstanleytech Nov 2014 #138

it is a smokescreen noiretextatique Nov 2014 #145

Not all facts are equal, and many are irrelevant. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Nov 2014 #186

Ya you have people who saw some of what happened or atleast think they did cstanleytech Nov 2014 #216

Are you kidding? The DU Default is usually "We should wait for the VERDICT before we opine." WinkyDink Nov 2014 #230

The Ruling Oligarchy would love nothing more than to see a major uprising of the black community. rhett o rick Nov 2014 #6

Bingo!!! 2naSalit Nov 2014 #12

Except when the civil war itself leads to a revolution, a la the American Civil War. See KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #29

I am not familiar and would be interested in learning more. But just because the Ruling Oligarchs rhett o rick Nov 2014 #39

Oh absolutely. Not all civil wars lead to revolution and some even KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #44

Again, I need to read further on this, but seems to me that the American Civil War was rhett o rick Nov 2014 #46

Is the full title "Abraham Lincoln and the Second American Revolution?" csziggy Nov 2014 #76

Ah, shit, I screwed up in futzing around with those italics tags. You're absolutely correct and KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #82

That's OK - I wanted to make sure I had found the correct book csziggy Nov 2014 #88

Sadly, you may be right. AverageJoe90 Nov 2014 #48

I'm going to stick with: NaturalHigh Nov 2014 #8

Why do you say that? nichomachus Nov 2014 #15

I'll stick right there with you on this one. hamsterjill Nov 2014 #17

No sides on a grand jury dpibel Nov 2014 #32

You are correct, and I've edited my post accordingly. hamsterjill Nov 2014 #33

^^This^^ Puddy Nov 2014 #24

You have no idea what information the grand jury has. We may actually have more information than rhett o rick Nov 2014 #45

Eric Holders DOJ, the prosecutor and 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. have all the facts One_Life_To_Give Nov 2014 #87

He needs to be Federally indicted amd tries. No question about that. ncjustice80 Nov 2014 #134

For violation of civil rights? Oktober Nov 2014 #152

yeah...it happened in the 60's noiretextatique Nov 2014 #157

4th Amendment violation. ncjustice80 Nov 2014 #188

What 4A violation? GGJohn Nov 2014 #194

Unlawful seizure of the body via murder by a state actor. ncjustice80 Nov 2014 #290

Hopefully emotion like yours is kept as far away... Oktober Nov 2014 #211

No, hopefully Rethug kkk police apologists need to be kept away. ncjustice80 Nov 2014 #291

Bless your heart. GGJohn Nov 2014 #300

Aaaanndd we resort to personal attacks. Real mature. ncjustice80 Nov 2014 #308

+100 840high Nov 2014 #104

Unless we are on the Grand Jury yeoman6987 Nov 2014 #9

so you do not think jurors noiretextatique Nov 2014 #147

Does not have a bit to do with my reply. yeoman6987 Nov 2014 #155

Would that include Sherman A1 Nov 2014 #11

I disagree with only this one. dilby Nov 2014 #16

that's what I think as well. In fact, I think the last statement is bullshit. cali Nov 2014 #21

science cannot tell us if it appeared that Mike Brown was surrendering and not a danger- so anyone bettyellen Nov 2014 #120

Did you hear about the case in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina justiceischeap Nov 2014 #31

thank you. some people noiretextatique Nov 2014 #149

I do remember it JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #166

Remember Alfred Wright? BklnDem75 Nov 2014 #254

So you think that there's a valid comparison Erich Bloodaxe BSN Nov 2014 #189

There were eye witnesses that said the cop had a broken eye socket or whatever. dilby Nov 2014 #259

Um, no, there weren't. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Nov 2014 #264

Um here is a person who said they saw officer Wilson after the incident. dilby Nov 2014 #267

So if someone that wasn't there was lying... BklnDem75 Nov 2014 #289

You're linking to FOX news?! chervilant Nov 2014 #298

Several independent witnesses immediately had the same story gollygee Nov 2014 #304

Source? dpibel Nov 2014 #309

I read it over and over again when it was current gollygee Nov 2014 #313

IOW, you have no source dpibel Nov 2014 #315

IOW I've been reading tons of sources since the beginning gollygee Nov 2014 #316

OK I changed my mind gollygee Nov 2014 #318

Will you please be my personal Google assistant too? I"m lazy and cannot KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #319

Are we having a mutual misunderstanding? dpibel Nov 2014 #322

Oh I guess we are not understanding each other gollygee Nov 2014 #323

Some people actually believe the justice system works.. SomethingFishy Nov 2014 #20

Works for them. n/t. bvf Nov 2014 #27

Exactly. Because they're the oligarchy. Louisiana1976 Nov 2014 #86

it worked for OJ ollie4 Nov 2014 #153

it also worked for medgar evers' murderers noiretextatique Nov 2014 #169

US Navy brought down TWA800? One_Life_To_Give Nov 2014 #26

I will give your OP the thought that it deserves. Android3.14 Nov 2014 #30

Well, bullshit Lee-Lee Nov 2014 #34

Let's hope the ME's office isn't as corrupt as the Ferguson PD REP Nov 2014 #43

That sounds a lot like someone not interested in facts joeglow3 Nov 2014 #50

Oddly enough, the only person who can't tell his version of "the facts" is dead... Liberal_Stalwart71 Nov 2014 #56

I agree with both of those points. joeglow3 Nov 2014 #60

He may have been unarmed but his super-human mind rays caused that KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #61

just like Trayvon Martin, who not only had superhuman strength noiretextatique Nov 2014 #66

This is a specific and intentionally created stereotype gollygee Nov 2014 #132

correct eom noiretextatique Nov 2014 #135

Did you not read what I wrote? REP Nov 2014 #101

Fair enough. I jumped the gun and apologize. joeglow3 Nov 2014 #108

Since there were three autopsies, if the locl ME tried to cover up csziggy Nov 2014 #81

What happened to the clothing? REP Nov 2014 #103

Actually I don't know if the DOJ forensic team got access to the clothes csziggy Nov 2014 #111

I worry about that too noiretextatique Nov 2014 #150

AKA: "Conspiracy to obstruct justice" - nt KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #243

The facts would come out at a trial gollygee Nov 2014 #71

Think back Lee-Lee Nov 2014 #74

I remember gollygee Nov 2014 #79

Here's the youtube of those witnesses Little Star Nov 2014 #165

...^ that 840high Nov 2014 #106

Do you need to know that officer wilson was wearing brown socks that day? Erich Bloodaxe BSN Nov 2014 #190

Let me take it a step further JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #193

If the justice system worked Erich Bloodaxe BSN Nov 2014 #198

But Erich JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #199

Ya. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Nov 2014 #202

Me too JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #204

Hmmmm.... not a fan of silencing dissent... Adrahil Nov 2014 #38

"Witnesses tend to see what they want to see......." WillowTree Nov 2014 #42

True... And in this case... Adrahil Nov 2014 #90

Small technical point (but important): Wilson's right to the presumption of KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #64

Oh FFS, all grand juries are conducted this way all the time SickOfTheOnePct Nov 2014 #75

You're in error on matters large and small. First of all it is rare for potential KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #80

All grand juries are conducted in secret SickOfTheOnePct Nov 2014 #84

Funny how all the leaks from your supposedly 'secret' Grand Jury KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #119

"My" grand jury? SickOfTheOnePct Nov 2014 #121

My, you are quite the pedant, aren't you. It wasn't " 'your' KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #125

Thanks for the belly laugh SickOfTheOnePct Nov 2014 #126

This is the same guy who wants Pres. Obama to federalize the MO. NG to GGJohn Nov 2014 #131

Oh my n/t SickOfTheOnePct Nov 2014 #133

it is not unprecedented noiretextatique Nov 2014 #180

Did those troops disarm the local police like the poster suggested? GGJohn Nov 2014 #187

no, the feds could not do it noiretextatique Nov 2014 #280

I think the Ferguson PD should be disbanded and then constitute a new force GGJohn Nov 2014 #283

i agree noiretextatique Nov 2014 #287

+1,000 gollygee Nov 2014 #303

Did you actually hear the testimony? Adrahil Nov 2014 #93

a complete farce, with a predictable outcome noiretextatique Nov 2014 #159

Predictable given this shitstain of a DA McCulloch who is KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #205

Maybe the shooting was justified Niko Nov 2014 #40

Well then maybe there should be a trial. n/t gollygee Nov 2014 #72

And charge him with what? Niko Nov 2014 #77

Exactly! NaturalHigh Nov 2014 #116

If the GJ no billls Wilson, GGJohn Nov 2014 #127

That's the point gollygee Nov 2014 #129

Feds could try him on civil rights violation noiretextatique Nov 2014 #151

They could, but so far, but that's a high bar to hurdle. GGJohn Nov 2014 #179

possibly... noiretextatique Nov 2014 #278

That's a possible avenue to pursue, talk to the other officers who served with him GGJohn Nov 2014 #279

I did read an article in late August that descrtibed an incident between tblue37 Nov 2014 #295

Then maybe there will be a grand jury to decide that? ollie4 Nov 2014 #148

With all the clearly (I think) unjustified shootings Trayvon Martin, the guy in the Cincinnatti doc03 Nov 2014 #95

"the guy in the Cincinnati Walmart holding a toy gun" EX500rider Nov 2014 #265

There is no law against open carry in Ohio anyway. So if you go into Walmart and pick up one doc03 Nov 2014 #269

Purchasing one is not a problem.. EX500rider Nov 2014 #270

Did he take it out of a box? Even if he did there is no law against open carry in the state of Ohio doc03 Nov 2014 #272

Open carry is usually done in a holster or on a sling over your shoulder. EX500rider Nov 2014 #274

We had people in the last presidential campaign carrying semi-auto rifles to Obama's doc03 Nov 2014 #273

Good title, though flawed article. AverageJoe90 Nov 2014 #47

When it looks like a lynching, Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #53

Innocent until proven guilty? ollie4 Nov 2014 #156

too late for the black commumity noiretextatique Nov 2014 #160

You missed my point ollie4 Nov 2014 #191

It has JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #168

So, if you take innocent until proven guilty out of the equation..... ollie4 Nov 2014 #192

Depends JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #195

"Innocent until proven guilty" assumes that someone somewhere is trying to prove gollygee Nov 2014 #210

sounds like you have already made up your mind ollie4 Nov 2014 #235

I at no point said "guilty no matter what." gollygee Nov 2014 #239

Are you serious? ollie4 Nov 2014 #251

Are you serious? gollygee Nov 2014 #276

I would not doubt that there are differences in the conviction rate... ollie4 Nov 2014 #285

what conflicting evidence? Please elucidate Euphoria Nov 2014 #302

This message was self-deleted by its author ollie4 Nov 2014 #305

Just read the news, there is conflicting evidence ollie4 Nov 2014 #306

I have read the news dpibel Nov 2014 #310

Conflicting witnesses, Conflicting evidence ollie4 Nov 2014 #314

In which case, there should be a trial dpibel Nov 2014 #317

The grand jury will decide whether to indict ollie4 Nov 2014 #324

Words matter dpibel Nov 2014 #325

wow....just wow! ollie4 Nov 2014 #327

Of course.... ollie4 Nov 2014 #333

Well, here's the thing Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #209

then do you want de facto mob rule? ollie4 Nov 2014 #237

I am simply stating that Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #238

I was saying that innocent until proven guilty is a principle ollie4 Nov 2014 #253

Again, you are missing my point Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #260

Not an issue dpibel Nov 2014 #224

quibble if you want ollie4 Nov 2014 #236

Not the entire system though - Not all Americans JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #258

This whole bullshit ordeal was about onecaliberal Nov 2014 #54

And clearly a lot of people here are drinking the cool-aid. Solomon Nov 2014 #59

absolutely...which is why the OP is correct noiretextatique Nov 2014 #65

These folks insisting on 'waiting for the facts' remind me of a former Nixon's supporters, they who KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #68

coincidentally noiretextatique Nov 2014 #69

Coincidentally gollygee Nov 2014 #85

+1 gollygee Nov 2014 #117

So you want to eliminate grand juries? hack89 Nov 2014 #100

I said nothing about eliminating grand juries. Solomon Nov 2014 #161

You asserted that Wilson should go to trial hack89 Nov 2014 #170

He killed a man by shooting him multiple times. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Nov 2014 #196

And all those witnesses testified at the grand jury hack89 Nov 2014 #208

But, as I suggest in another comment Erich Bloodaxe BSN Nov 2014 #228

The legal standard for justified homicide is clear hack89 Nov 2014 #229

How did Wilson's gun come to be out of its holster????? - nt KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #246

Anti-gravitational mutant abilities. Rex Nov 2014 #248

Ask the grand jury hack89 Nov 2014 #257

We know what the witnesses saw. onecaliberal Nov 2014 #124

+1000 noiretextatique Nov 2014 #63

I would qualify 1, 2, and 4 Man from Pickens Nov 2014 #67

what about the larger issue of a history of police violence against african-americans noiretextatique Nov 2014 #73

Wilson is not on trial for killing Danroy Henry, nor for beating Rodney King One_Life_To_Give Nov 2014 #277

did i say he was responsible? noiretextatique Nov 2014 #288

And, so the dance continues... chervilant Nov 2014 #296

i like it noiretextatique Nov 2014 #301

No matter what the gtand jury decides, Jenoch Nov 2014 #70

One can hope! murray hill farm Nov 2014 #96

Though I agree with and support the protestors in Ferguson, ZombieHorde Nov 2014 #83

Conclusions in autopsies can be opinions subject to bias, however. kwassa Nov 2014 #89

I agree with that. ZombieHorde Nov 2014 #92

The problem, though, is that autopsies only tell you a limited amount. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Nov 2014 #201

It's sad that because of the way it looks like the grand jury won't indict, there won't be a Louisiana1976 Nov 2014 #97

I understand your feelings, but we don't know all the facts Wella Nov 2014 #105

Eyewitness testimony is actually pretty unreliable in studies mythology Nov 2014 #109

Several independent people had pretty much the same story right away gollygee Nov 2014 #113

for FACIAL RECOGNITION, yes- but that has no bearing here for fucks sake..... bettyellen Nov 2014 #114

Zimmerman all over again. nt gollygee Nov 2014 #115

My speculation on what went down that day. Rex Nov 2014 #110

So he just got mad phil89 Nov 2014 #240

Yeah that happens all the time, people snap and do stupid things. Rex Nov 2014 #242

No, he didn't "just get mad because a kid laughed at him." That was the KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #250

The first thing Wilson got angry about . . . (maybe) not being able to score KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #249

I agree with points 2 and 3. The first and last ones, not at all. Captain Stern Nov 2014 #118

We are hungry for a case that exposes everything wrong with Ferguson, and with America... Orsino Nov 2014 #122

The only thing to say tooeyeten Nov 2014 #128

+1 gollygee Nov 2014 #130

The white doctor? ConservativeDemocrat Nov 2014 #136

I suppose the idea is noiretextatique Nov 2014 #154

He was hired by the FAMILY of Brown ConservativeDemocrat Nov 2014 #330

the FIRST autopsy, conservative, reality-based person noiretextatique Nov 2014 #331

God, what a bunch of scary bullshit TorchTheWitch Nov 2014 #137

welcome to america noiretextatique Nov 2014 #164

Fair point JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #182

or noiretextatique Nov 2014 #281

That guy cracks me up! JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #286

LOL. Solomon Nov 2014 #167

And we already know: there will be no trial noiretextatique Nov 2014 #171

Not in our life times JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #185

All I'd say is it was NOT a "good shoot" as cops call it.... Spitfire of ATJ Nov 2014 #140

And this just in from CNN - truedelphi Nov 2014 #141

sad, but true noiretextatique Nov 2014 #172

Correct me if I am wrong please but cstanleytech Nov 2014 #232

You bring up some decent legal points. truedelphi Nov 2014 #292

The powerful always help their friends but that doesnt mean that their porn viewing habits cstanleytech Nov 2014 #293

Here is the relevance - the porn websites were shared with each other - truedelphi Nov 2014 #297

I see a problem. cstanleytech Nov 2014 #299

I see the same problem that you do. Which is why I wrote truedelphi Nov 2014 #332

Two justice System. Two Americas. Wilson will NEVER be tried! Period Farmbrook Nov 2014 #197

Thank you JustAnotherGen Nov 2014 #200

you get no argument from me noiretextatique Nov 2014 #311

Oh, dear. Here we go again with the "Nobody can have an opinion except for the jury" crowd. WinkyDink Nov 2014 #231

Facts tend to outweigh opinion though and the fact is that our opinions cstanleytech Nov 2014 #233

and neither do facts, really noiretextatique Nov 2014 #282

well...it's because the grand jury has all the facts noiretextatique Nov 2014 #312

Also gollygee Nov 2014 #320

McCullough has promised to release the entire transcript from the Grand Jury proceedings. Red State Rebel Nov 2014 #321

yes...that ill be very interesting noiretextatique Nov 2014 #326

Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2014 #244