General Discussion

Dont call me Shirley

(10,998 posts)

161. They learn it at home, but they also learn it in the outside world. Heredity plays a part too.

Fri Nov 21, 2014, 04:01 PM

Nov 2014

My son had an equally tough time, being both bullied (me) and bully (his father). The pull between the two must be a heavy burden.

I would sense that this is what kids in abusive families experience, they go one way or the other, but to be pulled in both directions would feel like the psyche on the verge of being ripped in half. It's easier to pick abuser (the macho) or abused (the wimp) than torn in two.

This is the basic set-up of our society. We must change this. We must strive for equality for all. We must work toward compassion, caring and supporting the whole human.

I wish I had found a progressive school for my son, he is so confused and traumatized from "rehab homes", which are nothing by prisons minus the bars. They are not healing centers.

We, as a society, need is healing, psychological therapy, calming and centering practices and teaching honoring all life.

Really, I do not believe that girls are superior to boys or boys are superior to girls. It would simply be more difficult to be a male in today's world. We are all born onto this beautiful paradise we call Earth. We all deserve to be living in harmony with each other and our Home.

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Fourth grade boys list things they don't like about being a boy... [View all] TeeYiYi Nov 2014 OP

Why would you even ask someone that question? dilby Nov 2014 #1

male bashing starts at an early age nt msongs Nov 2014 #2

nonsense- we did the same exercise as kids 30 + years ago. Examining outdated gender roles and bettyellen Nov 2014 #8

Interesting that you'd cite a technique that's 30+ years old... Orrex Nov 2014 #41

Free to be You and Me was groundbreaking back 40 years ago (or more). Same exact idea. bettyellen Nov 2014 #52

Well, the list includes societal pressures as well as biological ones Orrex Nov 2014 #58

LOL, girls have 100X the hair pressure, and smelling- is a choice for all but a few. Men CAN be Moms bettyellen Nov 2014 #61

I said nothing to diminish girls' experiences Orrex Nov 2014 #64

LOL, nope. this is all about dismantaling the damaging ideas they have, so THEY can dismiss them. bettyellen Nov 2014 #66

It's not a straw man, obviously. Orrex Nov 2014 #71

it is a strawman, because hair is not inevitable, nor is smelling, loving football or ANYTHING on bettyellen Nov 2014 #74

But that's the kids' fear, regardless of how reality might turn out. Orrex Nov 2014 #78

you missed all the anger @ this down there? I don't know how you could, because it is there. bettyellen Nov 2014 #82

Yet another dismissal. Orrex Nov 2014 #84

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Nov 2014 #132

LOL, it is good to know someone here remembers that! You'd think no one ever discussed these things bettyellen Nov 2014 #142

Marlo Thomas was definitely not a child abuser. Warren DeMontague Nov 2014 #150

If you think the issues of living up to "Maleness!" have gone away in the last 40 years... MNBrewer Nov 2014 #156

I agree. Orrex Nov 2014 #158

There has to be more to this story... TeeYiYi Nov 2014 #3

no one should ever be asked about what they don't like about dilby Nov 2014 #7

kids should examinine wrong ideas about what it means to be male in our culture. they already HAVE bettyellen Nov 2014 #9

Kids are filled with likes and dislikes, and under large pressure to conform bhikkhu Nov 2014 #100

"stigmatizing discussion and thought" exactly right. bettyellen Nov 2014 #107

I Don't Get RobinA Nov 2014 #139

This message was self-deleted by its author freshwest Nov 2014 #101

Well... TeeYiYi Nov 2014 #108

TY. Command + still only increases text and not images on my Mac. It never did and didn't now. freshwest Nov 2014 #116

Is your browser window... TeeYiYi Nov 2014 #122

Nope, it didn't do it that way either. I'm finding more and more I can't do. I'll see if the GOP freshwest Nov 2014 #124

I edited that last post... TeeYiYi Nov 2014 #129

Agree. The one that posed that question to a child is a total ass alphafemale Nov 2014 #5

If you don't ask, you never know bhikkhu Nov 2014 #49

it's a do you still beat your dog question. n/t dilby Nov 2014 #114

No it isn't. There's no shame in discussing these issues. cyberswede Nov 2014 #119

to explore gender expectations- it is great they have them questioning these silly notions- bettyellen Nov 2014 #6

you can explore that by asking what does it mean to be a boy. dilby Nov 2014 #17

Nonsense, we did - we did-the same exercise as young girls. Kids already have these weird feelings bettyellen Nov 2014 #18

and that was wrong to ask you then. dilby Nov 2014 #21

Not at all- it was very empowering to rid ourselves of destructive myths. bettyellen Nov 2014 #22

how did that even work? dilby Nov 2014 #28

Again- it is not what they do not like about THEMSELVES. It is about the IDEAS of what a boy is.... bettyellen Nov 2014 #29

they wrote. dilby Nov 2014 #33

"being a boy" - everything they listed were stupid stereotypes of what they hear a "boy is" bettyellen Nov 2014 #36

What do you not like about being black? dilby Nov 2014 #39

LOL, among a peer group- it is a fine question to explore. Cannot believe you think these little bettyellen Nov 2014 #45

sorry need to put you on ignore. dilby Nov 2014 #77

Please do- and spare us the personal insults. bettyellen Nov 2014 #89

Of course it's an ok question to ask. cyberswede Nov 2014 #59

who knew a little introspection was so damned threatening- and easily misunderstood, LOL! bettyellen Nov 2014 #62

That's intellectually dishonest. Orrex Nov 2014 #75

you seem to think I was talking about you? I was not. As much as you seem to need to find bone to bettyellen Nov 2014 #79

It's still an intellectually dishonest tactic, whether or not you're addressing me. Orrex Nov 2014 #81

bullshit, you argued that hair and other things were biologically inevitable, and I laughed at THAT bettyellen Nov 2014 #92

Well, that's simply a lie. Orrex Nov 2014 #96

Bullshit- inherant: existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute. bettyellen Nov 2014 #97

Please tell me you're kidding. Orrex Nov 2014 #99

there is nothing new or scary about these discussions, LOL. bettyellen Nov 2014 #69

Agreed LittleBlue Nov 2014 #11

I hope they have Dads who teach them they can be "Moms" and hate football, if that is.... bettyellen Nov 2014 #37

Is it OK if they DO like football? FrodosPet Nov 2014 #160

yup, that would be why I said CAN, not must. LOL. Emasculating to love and care for a baby? Hope bettyellen Nov 2014 #163

The converse question was an element of the MMPI for years Recursion Nov 2014 #135

Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2014 #141

"suppost to like violence" - heartbreaking! bettyellen Nov 2014 #4

hmm.. GummyBearz Nov 2014 #50

When I was in 4th grade, there was some sort of national campaign against violence in cartoons Art_from_Ark Nov 2014 #80

International Men's Day? KamaAina Nov 2014 #10

I don't believe it. LostInAnomie Nov 2014 #12

I suspect... TeeYiYi Nov 2014 #16

I totally believe it. half my friends are teachers. at that age, they are wild cards compared to bettyellen Nov 2014 #34

I was a teacher of that age group. LostInAnomie Nov 2014 #38

wow, I guess i have met a lot more aware and verbal kids than you.... bettyellen Nov 2014 #40

You can get a kid to say just about anything you want... LostInAnomie Nov 2014 #51

are you suggesting somehow these kids like all the stereotypes and they lied about it? bettyellen Nov 2014 #54

I doubt that these answers weren't solicited... LostInAnomie Nov 2014 #63

are you saying this guy hates boys and wanted them to hate themselves too? LOL. No. bettyellen Nov 2014 #67

Yeah, because modern feminism is pure as the driven snow. LostInAnomie Nov 2014 #95

have fun wandering off on a bizarre tangent @ hating on feminsim! bettyellen Nov 2014 #102

If pushing self-loathing on young boys is feminism... LostInAnomie Nov 2014 #103

you could not be more wrong about the "self loathing" , so wrong that I can't help laughing at all bettyellen Nov 2014 #105

Right... LostInAnomie Nov 2014 #109

Again...it seems that some folks are so invested in being pissed off cyberswede Nov 2014 #112

That's a pretty ignorant thing to say. cyberswede Nov 2014 #111

"Boys smell bad" LostInAnomie Nov 2014 #113

How is that "feminism?" cyberswede Nov 2014 #117

It's part of the White Ribbon Campaign. LostInAnomie Nov 2014 #127

The kids themselves came up with those items. cyberswede Nov 2014 #140

I dunno . . . markpkessinger Nov 2014 #48

Around 5th grade is when both of my daughters started seriously responding to stereotypes bhikkhu Nov 2014 #55

that is exactly what I have heard from educator friends. the minute kids can talk they are very bettyellen Nov 2014 #57

Not to me Recursion Nov 2014 #136

+1 treestar Nov 2014 #154

Someday, they'll appreciate the 100 reasons why it's better to be a guy. badtoworse Nov 2014 #13

I feel sorry for him Iamthetruth Nov 2014 #14

More about this justiceischeap Nov 2014 #15

not sure why it flew over so many head here. Did people think they were just going to list a bunch bettyellen Nov 2014 #19

No shit. cyberswede Nov 2014 #42

Or they want children to be imprisoned by stereotypes? Just like Honey Boo Boo's mom, bettyellen Nov 2014 #43

Interesting!!! yuiyoshida Nov 2014 #24

Isn't that just one form of being a human? The2ndWheel Nov 2014 #32

I'm so glad... TeeYiYi Nov 2014 #87

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Nov 2014 #20

that would be ironic, given the context, no? bettyellen Nov 2014 #23

Bizarre responses is right. betsuni Nov 2014 #26

Is it ok if a boy wants to like violence, smell bad, and grow hair everywhere? The2ndWheel Nov 2014 #25

this is actually a more thoughtful and understanding comment than most posts here, LOL.... bettyellen Nov 2014 #31

If anyone thinks this is ok you are broken inside AngryAmish Nov 2014 #27

This is damned close to being child abuse. NaturalHigh Nov 2014 #30

Never to early for self loathing and deprication! linuxman Nov 2014 #35

A lot of those are stereotypes put on men by women davidn3600 Nov 2014 #44

More like stereotypes put on men by our patriarchal society. cyberswede Nov 2014 #53

If you believe that crap, do not blame women. blame yourself for not finding self-acceptance... bettyellen Nov 2014 #56

Are you suggesting women have absolutely no social expectations of men? davidn3600 Nov 2014 #60

I'm suggesting if you live for the approval of your bros or women instead of yourself you are a fool bettyellen Nov 2014 #65

But you do recognize how powerful society is concerning this davidn3600 Nov 2014 #120

oh I realized the programming as a child. Never been one of those who "accept it" or fear being the bettyellen Nov 2014 #125

Within the patriarchal society treestar Nov 2014 #159

Men created them when they had all the power treestar Nov 2014 #157

I was just talking with my daughter today about why being a girl is better, being a boy is harder. Dont call me Shirley Nov 2014 #46

Women who are strong are called a bitch. Women who challenge male dominated fields Luminous Animal Nov 2014 #83

Alas, I do. The beatings, the domination, the objectifying, the sexual blaming, the shaming... Dont call me Shirley Nov 2014 #90

While I don't agree one gender is better than the other, I agree with what you say here: freshwest Nov 2014 #147

They learn it at home, but they also learn it in the outside world. Heredity plays a part too. Dont call me Shirley Nov 2014 #161

A minor point about the thread title... cyberswede Nov 2014 #47

Hey there, cyberswede... TeeYiYi Nov 2014 #68

Hey there TeeYiYi, did you have any idea the weird reaction this would get here? bettyellen Nov 2014 #70

I figured... TeeYiYi Nov 2014 #76

well I would not call the angry biology= destiny thoughts expressed here anything but bettyellen Nov 2014 #86

That was swell of you! cyberswede Nov 2014 #104

Disgusting stupidity. phil89 Nov 2014 #72

some of the responses here are amusing noiretextatique Nov 2014 #73

what is really sad is that some believe that these boys are doomed to be smelly, football watching, bettyellen Nov 2014 #85

it is stupid noiretextatique Nov 2014 #91

this also would not be happening if some here had their own "biology is destiny" crap dispelled long bettyellen Nov 2014 #94

Did you ever think that 4th grade boys sunnystarr Nov 2014 #88

Ooooh..... "The Secret" bettyellen Nov 2014 #93

you get it. dilby Nov 2014 #110

Oh.my.god. cyberswede Nov 2014 #115

oh- they think boys are inherently smelly and hairy, and its just that discussing it is fucked up! bettyellen Nov 2014 #123

Indeed. Too bad some people would mock and dismiss their concerns. Orrex Nov 2014 #137

Supposedly all of us on DU are adults and yet I see messages being taken the wrong way all the time Fumesucker Nov 2014 #168

Which is why the "discussing" part of the exercise is important. cyberswede Nov 2014 #169

Getting back to DU, things get "discussed" here all the time Fumesucker Nov 2014 #170

I'm referring to the children performing the exercise cyberswede Nov 2014 #171

Wow. None of these ring a bell. maced666 Nov 2014 #98

I am really perplexed by some of the comments here. Behind the Aegis Nov 2014 #106

"having an automatic bad reputation", the saddest one for me steve2470 Nov 2014 #118

Seriously, it's kind of like being a Wookie. Warren DeMontague Nov 2014 #121

the hair? bettyellen Nov 2014 #126

And the bad reputation. And, the smell! Warren DeMontague Nov 2014 #131

LOL, good points! bettyellen Nov 2014 #144

a wookie bwahahaha....good one Warren ! steve2470 Nov 2014 #130

So is it plural boys or just one sensitive soul... Oktober Nov 2014 #128

If you're really curious, I actually posted a link to the original OP about this justiceischeap Nov 2014 #133

I think this is a great exercise *and* these particular responses seem coached RedCappedBandit Nov 2014 #134

I've said this before but... Prophet 451 Nov 2014 #138

The question could have easily been rephrased Shankapotomus Nov 2014 #143

only those ignorant of what happened think it is controversial. they covered good things too as bettyellen Nov 2014 #145

I'm not sure how phrasing a question Shankapotomus Nov 2014 #148

it's not a conclusion! Weird anyone would think that.....you should read the article bettyellen Nov 2014 #151

No matter how you spin it Shankapotomus Nov 2014 #153

by your reasoning, no one should ever openly discuss their dislikes or fears for fear someone bettyellen Nov 2014 #162

There are proper context Shankapotomus Nov 2014 #164

Obviously you did not read the full story, as kids did not "level body centric criticisms" at each bettyellen Nov 2014 #165

Link? Shankapotomus Nov 2014 #166

I agree that the piece in the OP does not give ANY context, but since we pretty much covered bettyellen Nov 2014 #167

equally heartbreaking is the entirely predictable defensive outrage reaction here. Warren Stupidity Nov 2014 #146

True that. TeeYiYi Nov 2014 #149

Well, the Not All Men bat signal lit up. betsuni Nov 2014 #152

Since women work now treestar Nov 2014 #155