General Discussion

branford

(4,462 posts)

57. Interesting. Could you kindly provide your relevant expertise on tactics and police procedure,

Mon Nov 24, 2014, 03:38 AM

Nov 2014

or at least relevant scholarly citations, to indicate that the best, safest and most prudent procedure when dealing with armed juvenile suspects who do not obey police instructions is to always permit them to fire first?

And yes, the 12 year old was in fact a "suspect." The scare quotes add little to the discussion. The police were called to the playground due to a 911 call indicating someone was waving around a gun. They quite correctly identified the boy with the gun. He was therefore a suspect. Just because someone is a suspect, does not make them guilty of a crime, justify shooting them without appropriate cause, or lessen the tragedy of their death.

Note that children much younger than 12 have been suspects (and actually convicted) in a whole host of crimes, including possession and use of a firearm.

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Justice for Tamir Rice! 12 year old shot and killed for a BB gun. [View all] Garion_55 Nov 2014 OP

There's a video surveillance tape of the incident, GGJohn Nov 2014 #1

Having never been a boy--- Reformed Bully Nov 2014 #5

Anyone determined enough can remove those orange tips. GGJohn Nov 2014 #7

Like the cop that shot a 12 YO Feral Child Nov 2014 #103

Hey, here's a simple solution, GGJohn Nov 2014 #104

OR Feral Child Nov 2014 #108

Ok, I'll play for now, GGJohn Nov 2014 #109

Besides this: Feral Child Nov 2014 #111

So far you haven't dis-proven anything I've said. GGJohn Nov 2014 #121

You'd love to be ignored Feral Child Nov 2014 #213

If you feel you must, GGJohn Nov 2014 #215

Thanks for your permission, Officer. Feral Child Dec 2014 #216

Officer? GGJohn Dec 2014 #218

He didn't say anything untrue phil89 Nov 2014 #130

A child was needlessly killed? n/t ieoeja Nov 2014 #163

It's called "Passion", Feral Child Nov 2014 #212

Good Lord, you nailed it. Number23 Nov 2014 #195

Thanks much, #23! Feral Child Nov 2014 #211

it's easy as hell to coat them with black nail polish TorchTheWitch Nov 2014 #131

Agree. GGJohn Nov 2014 #133

I still don't know if it was a legal "toy" or not TorchTheWitch Nov 2014 #183

Lara Croft? Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2014 #217

Wow! I don't want to live in your kind of country, where children are shot to death by police who sabrina 1 Nov 2014 #184

God, it's amazing how many people are mis-construing my posts. GGJohn Nov 2014 #185

You wouldn't be terrified if the gun in evidence was pointed at you? branford Nov 2014 #191

No, I would not. Damn, whatever happened to 'land of the free, home of the BRAVE?? sabrina 1 Nov 2014 #194

Bully for you. branford Nov 2014 #196

Some people have been known to paint over the orange safety tips. nt Quackers Nov 2014 #21

I live in the neighborhood where this happened. Let me describe it for you- LeftinOH Nov 2014 #97

i lived on west blvd near western. we left in 2003 . belzabubba333 Nov 2014 #113

Great post. cwydro Nov 2014 #120

US law on toy guns, etc. TorchTheWitch Nov 2014 #128

Thank You!! + infinity. MH1 Nov 2014 #135

Oh No - its the picture of the gun again FreakinDJ Nov 2014 #37

And what would you do cwydro Nov 2014 #69

By a child in a play ground - Point my finger and say BANG FreakinDJ Nov 2014 #70

Sure you would. cwydro Nov 2014 #73

You don't know him. Feral Child Nov 2014 #106

Sounds like you haven't lived in our shoes in what people call "bad" neighborhoods. Daemonaquila Nov 2014 #122

I live in a fairly nice neighborhood, but can still handle myself in the bad ones. ieoeja Nov 2014 #160

A 12 y.o. pointed a gun at my head mentalsolstice Nov 2014 #136

because 12 year olds never have real guns and never shoot people with them? onenote Nov 2014 #154

This is not a black and white issue. This is a right and wrong issue. nt Quackers Nov 2014 #71

Evidence Case No. Reformed Bully Nov 2014 #60

How do you know it was unofficially released? GGJohn Nov 2014 #61

Remember the phoney Darin Wilson X-rays FreakinDJ Nov 2014 #63

ABC News GGJohn Nov 2014 #64

The problem with pictures...the early articles talk about scratching off the orange tip. HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #74

It has been shown all over Cleveland media as the gun used by the kid liberal N proud Nov 2014 #84

Yes...we saw it in every thread regarding this shooting. FarPoint Nov 2014 #75

After reading the entire thread with comments ... JEFF9K Nov 2014 #139

I think your going to be disappointed with this yeoman6987 Nov 2014 #2

911 caller twice said it could be fake Garion_55 Nov 2014 #6

And that info wasn't passed on to the responding officers. GGJohn Nov 2014 #8

No - Look at the photo of the 12yr old boy how died FreakinDJ Nov 2014 #42

That has nothing to do with the fact that the child had in his possession, GGJohn Nov 2014 #46

It means nothing to a Bigot Hell Bent on killing Black Children FreakinDJ Nov 2014 #53

I fully support the killing of black children? GGJohn Nov 2014 #56

Naked Hatred for the Killing of Children FreakinDJ Nov 2014 #58

I don't bite into wax fruit and eat it just because it looks real. FarPoint Nov 2014 #76

If you guess wrong about a wax apple, it probably won't kill you Orrex Nov 2014 #88

Its alright Orrex... FarPoint Nov 2014 #94

Thanks, but your analogy is still absurd whether I'm on my game or not. Orrex Nov 2014 #96

I just... Oktober Nov 2014 #91

I'm disappointed in how drastically the profession of law enforcement has depreciated. FarPoint Nov 2014 #93

Lot of cops that you know from back in the day that would tolerate anyone pointing a gun at them? Oktober Nov 2014 #95

Did the kid actually point the gun at the cops? I hadn't heard that. Comrade Grumpy Nov 2014 #125

Soooo cops have to wait for a gun to be drawn and pointed at them before GGJohn Nov 2014 #127

At what point is it ok for a cop to fire at someone? Oktober Nov 2014 #132

If opposing the killing of innocent children makes one a bigot, then DU has really gone to shit. n/t ieoeja Nov 2014 #164

I'm opposed to the killing of all children, GGJohn Nov 2014 #166

Could be fake, also means the gun could be real. branford Nov 2014 #10

You're = You are RandiFan1290 Nov 2014 #78

There are far too many opinions masquerading as fact in the OP to warrant a substantive response. branford Nov 2014 #3

This kid wasn't unarmed, he had an airsoft handgun that looked remarkably realistic. GGJohn Nov 2014 #4

If those cops were seriously so scared shitless of a 12 year old 99th_Monkey Nov 2014 #18

Did you even look at the picture of the gun? GGJohn Nov 2014 #19

This is a freaking 12 year old we're talking about here. 99th_Monkey Nov 2014 #23

Oh I get it, GGJohn Nov 2014 #29

I do have a clear bias 99th_Monkey Nov 2014 #44

The gun looked real. The gun LOOKS real. Jenoch Nov 2014 #67

And the 12 y. o. boy LOOKED "dangerous" 99th_Monkey Nov 2014 #140

You might be correct. Jenoch Nov 2014 #155

Huh? branford Nov 2014 #20

Please see 99th_Monkey Nov 2014 #26

Are you actually suggesting a police officer can only fire on a suspect branford Nov 2014 #31

The slimy part is that you are correct but they won't admit it... Oktober Nov 2014 #39

Wait? You do not believe some dead cops is better than some dead, innocent children? ieoeja Nov 2014 #165

No it's not... Oktober Nov 2014 #172

Police officers need not --unreasonably-- risk their lives. branford Nov 2014 #179

When the "suspect" is 12 with a bb gun, THEN yes. Take cover, stay safe, talk, observe ... 99th_Monkey Nov 2014 #50

Interesting. Could you kindly provide your relevant expertise on tactics and police procedure, branford Nov 2014 #57

If it is just them treestar Nov 2014 #147

12 year olds have shot people treestar Nov 2014 #55

To say it's "not impossible" is VERY different 99th_Monkey Nov 2014 #66

They have to know it's a BB gun before they can be judged on treestar Nov 2014 #142

What an officer KNOWS or ASSUMES he/she knows 99th_Monkey Nov 2014 #156

If she'd done the same thing, I don't think they'd treestar Nov 2014 #176

what should they do if it's a seven-year-old with a weapon? zazen Nov 2014 #68

If the blonde girl is waving a gun around in a playground XemaSab Nov 2014 #85

That's all certainly possible and could be taken into account treestar Nov 2014 #143

This 12-yo wanted people to think he was dangerous XemaSab Nov 2014 #82

And he found cops stupid & incompetent enough to fall for it nt 99th_Monkey Nov 2014 #138

it was a fucking bb gun noiretextatique Nov 2014 #24

You know that after the fact. branford Nov 2014 #33

because...the 911 caller said it might be fake noiretextatique Nov 2014 #52

Might be fake also means might be real. branford Nov 2014 #59

And the cops didn't know that. GGJohn Nov 2014 #34

UH...DUH: I got that the FIRST time you posted the BB gun noiretextatique Nov 2014 #49

OK. GGJohn Nov 2014 #51

Alledgedly... BklnDem75 Nov 2014 #81

Well, you got the "don't care" part right. ManiacJoe Nov 2014 #188

What's your point? Oktober Nov 2014 #40

what is yours, to defend killer cops noiretextatique Nov 2014 #54

Is there a scenario in which you might conclude that the cop's actions were justified? Orrex Nov 2014 #107

there are some people for whom the police officer is always wrong treestar Nov 2014 #148

And no way to keep track of them, either Orrex Nov 2014 #158

Only real guns require background checks in Ohio. FarPoint Nov 2014 #79

Lots of assumptions are being made. Once the video is released, we will know more. uppityperson Nov 2014 #9

A reasonable voice. GGJohn Nov 2014 #11

you are not reasonable. noiretextatique Nov 2014 #25

And how many times does this have to be shown to you? GGJohn Nov 2014 #32

Post it as often as you want. cwydro Nov 2014 #77

Maybe this is a reason why the "haters" don't buy into it! atreides1 Nov 2014 #173

LOL, funny coming from you! nt Logical Nov 2014 #110

Eventually the only way P.O.s will be believed is if they take a bullet first... Rye Bread Pizza Nov 2014 #12

Maybe the shooters finger slipped and pulled the trigger... Oktober Nov 2014 #13

The police officer may also have been shot by an unknown sniper, branford Nov 2014 #22

I am too new to up vote but that was a good one. n/t Rye Bread Pizza Nov 2014 #141

you mean a BB, in this case noiretextatique Nov 2014 #27

Which the cops didn't know at the time of the confrontation. GGJohn Nov 2014 #36

but YOU know it now, so stop claiming he was armed noiretextatique Nov 2014 #38

He was armed, that's not a lie, GGJohn Nov 2014 #41

you are so full of it noiretextatique Nov 2014 #47

And you continue to post utter nonsense. GGJohn Nov 2014 #48

you are full of shit noiretextatique Nov 2014 #197

If someone pulled that "gun" on you and demanded your wallet XemaSab Nov 2014 #86

did he do that? noiretextatique Nov 2014 #199

xemasab asked a question I would like to see your answer you joeglow3 Nov 2014 #152

no answer noiretextatique Nov 2014 #198

I have had a gun pulled on me joeglow3 Nov 2014 #200

thank you...scared white american white man noiretextatique Nov 2014 #202

I sure as shit wouldn't wait to get shot before defending myself joeglow3 Nov 2014 #205

a fng bb gun...does it even matter to you that it is not real? noiretextatique Nov 2014 #206

When I had a gun pulled on me, the person claimed to have a bomb joeglow3 Nov 2014 #207

Sadly, so many folks are walking around with gunz nowadays, more and more of this will happen. Hoyt Nov 2014 #14

not if you are white eom noiretextatique Nov 2014 #203

Suicide by cop. ManiacJoe Nov 2014 #15

that's the cop's story eom noiretextatique Nov 2014 #28

Not according to any article I have seen. ManiacJoe Nov 2014 #30

the cop claimed he reached in his waist noiretextatique Nov 2014 #43

Enough with the "unarmed kid" bullshit. You know better. ManiacJoe Nov 2014 #62

he had a fng BB gun, you idiot noiretextatique Nov 2014 #204

Congrats, you are beginning to understand. ManiacJoe Nov 2014 #208

The Police are pushing very hard here, to make their case, for a full blown Police State 99th_Monkey Nov 2014 #16

food for thought Aerows Nov 2014 #17

as soon as we get rid of the last crew noiretextatique Nov 2014 #45

"it is almost a tacit implication of guilty if they remain silent for hours" Oktober Nov 2014 #35

Sounds like more king of hill crap. Eleanors38 Nov 2014 #65

It looks like a real gun. Quantess Nov 2014 #72

Yes, the police want you to think that, why would they HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #80

And yet you seem already to have declared him guilty. Orrex Nov 2014 #90

No, I think the police are guilty of a PR push that's inherently unfair HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #151

And if the police didn't immediately provide their story, show the gun in evidence, etc., branford Nov 2014 #159

The police need to treat a homicide investigation like...a homicide investigation HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #162

Is the famly under a gag order? Orrex Nov 2014 #167

The family really isn't in a position to examine and question evidence. HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #168

Has their attorney been denied access to the evidence? Orrex Nov 2014 #169

I object to the PD's presentation of the evidence to the media HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #170

You are welcome to voice that objection. Orrex Nov 2014 #171

And I will. Police statements are subject to conflict of interest and nothing HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #175

It's not as exculpatory as you seem to want it to be. Orrex Nov 2014 #178

How exculpatory it is, isn't the issue. The cops playing public opinion IS HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #180

You are welcome to your opinion. Orrex Nov 2014 #181

I expect them to not treat it as 'exceptional' HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #182

I am not interested in platitudes Orrex Nov 2014 #186

It looks like a real gun. Quantess Nov 2014 #101

That's not really the point...the point is the police are working the public attitude. HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #157

That is certainly possible. Quantess Nov 2014 #174

The police SHOULD BE SILENT. That is what a fair trial depends on HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #177

Police should be silent? Quantess Nov 2014 #189

Excuse me for wanting to be so old fashioned as to be non-prejudicial HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #192

Why are toy manufacturers allowed to sell those? stone space Nov 2014 #83

Because most owners use them responsibly. ManiacJoe Nov 2014 #187

like I asked upthread, what if this were a seven-year-old? or four-year-old? zazen Nov 2014 #87

Are you willing to be shot trying to talk to a minor reaching for what appears to be a real gun? Lurks Often Nov 2014 #92

so should I shoot a five-year-old reaching for what appears to be a real gun? zazen Nov 2014 #98

Do you equate "reaching for" with "pulled out of his waistband?" Orrex Nov 2014 #99

I have no idea--I'm using the last poster's words to clarify whether cops should shoot a small child zazen Nov 2014 #100

Then you're asking a question that's tangential to the issue at hand Orrex Nov 2014 #105

I asked a simple question, are you willing to be shot by a child Lurks Often Nov 2014 #102

how weird--getting attacked from all sides here when I don't even have a position zazen Nov 2014 #112

Still avoiding the answer Lurks Often Nov 2014 #115

Can you name a single law enforcement agency Jenoch Nov 2014 #126

And the use of that would have met the same condemnation treestar Nov 2014 #149

This is true treestar Nov 2014 #146

Guns are no easier to get now then in 1968 Lurks Often Nov 2014 #153

It was a 12 year old, not 16, not 20, not 8, not 4. Quantess Nov 2014 #190

This is a cop's nightmare. Vinca Nov 2014 #89

But the kid didn't point the gun at the cop Beaverhausen Nov 2014 #114

They never even say "Drop the gun" any more. Darb Nov 2014 #117

The story I read said the officers saw the gun on Jenoch Nov 2014 #129

Do you think the cop was just itchin' to shoot a 12 year old? MH1 Nov 2014 #137

Undeniable? Were you there? Beaverhausen Nov 2014 #150

are you fng kidding me? noiretextatique Nov 2014 #201

Actually, yes, I think he was itching to shoot him Nevernose Nov 2014 #214

Simply reaching - you're holding the cop to a standard that he has to be shot first? treestar Nov 2014 #145

Or not teaching them to put their hands up so the cop won't shoot them treestar Nov 2014 #144

Gun love, gun promotion, gun fever. We are shooting and killing ourselves and the NPR kelliekat44 Nov 2014 #116

It's self-perpetuating lunacy. Darb Nov 2014 #118

National Public Radio? Throd Nov 2014 #119

I hate those NPR gun toters. aikoaiko Nov 2014 #123

But I love the NPR gun totebags. Orrex Nov 2014 #124

Those totebags Duckhunter935 Nov 2014 #134

I though only NPR lifetime members could get the totebag? branford Nov 2014 #161

The truest thing we've heard today! Quantess Nov 2014 #193

video is now out! Garion_55 Nov 2014 #209

I'm noticing a lot of the 'wait and see' crew had no problem condemning this kid... BklnDem75 Nov 2014 #210