General Discussion

zazen

(2,978 posts)

100. I have no idea--I'm using the last poster's words to clarify whether cops should shoot a small child

Mon Nov 24, 2014, 09:49 AM

Nov 2014

when they have a reasonable fear that that child is holding a loaded weapon.

I agree that those motherf**king manufacturers created "toys" or "BB guns" that look like automatic weapons that somehow children are allowed to own, and that from a distance a trained cop couldn't tell the difference.

But if the person brandishing (I have no idea whether this means aiming, holding, waiving, examining, showing, whatever) what looks like a loaded semi-automatic is a small child, when does the intervention start or stop being, shoot the person first? When they're 4? 7? 10? 12? 15?

It's a sincere question.

Some posters here say that the cops have a right to defend themselves under all circumstances. I'm questioning, why is this framed as "defense" rather than accident that needs to be stopped? Do we shoot a 4-year-old?

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Highlight:

Justice for Tamir Rice! 12 year old shot and killed for a BB gun. [View all] Garion_55 Nov 2014 OP

There's a video surveillance tape of the incident, GGJohn Nov 2014 #1

Having never been a boy--- Reformed Bully Nov 2014 #5

Anyone determined enough can remove those orange tips. GGJohn Nov 2014 #7

Like the cop that shot a 12 YO Feral Child Nov 2014 #103

Hey, here's a simple solution, GGJohn Nov 2014 #104

OR Feral Child Nov 2014 #108

Ok, I'll play for now, GGJohn Nov 2014 #109

Besides this: Feral Child Nov 2014 #111

So far you haven't dis-proven anything I've said. GGJohn Nov 2014 #121

You'd love to be ignored Feral Child Nov 2014 #213

If you feel you must, GGJohn Nov 2014 #215

Thanks for your permission, Officer. Feral Child Dec 2014 #216

Officer? GGJohn Dec 2014 #218

He didn't say anything untrue phil89 Nov 2014 #130

A child was needlessly killed? n/t ieoeja Nov 2014 #163

It's called "Passion", Feral Child Nov 2014 #212

Good Lord, you nailed it. Number23 Nov 2014 #195

Thanks much, #23! Feral Child Nov 2014 #211

it's easy as hell to coat them with black nail polish TorchTheWitch Nov 2014 #131

Agree. GGJohn Nov 2014 #133

I still don't know if it was a legal "toy" or not TorchTheWitch Nov 2014 #183

Lara Croft? Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2014 #217

Wow! I don't want to live in your kind of country, where children are shot to death by police who sabrina 1 Nov 2014 #184

God, it's amazing how many people are mis-construing my posts. GGJohn Nov 2014 #185

You wouldn't be terrified if the gun in evidence was pointed at you? branford Nov 2014 #191

No, I would not. Damn, whatever happened to 'land of the free, home of the BRAVE?? sabrina 1 Nov 2014 #194

Bully for you. branford Nov 2014 #196

Some people have been known to paint over the orange safety tips. nt Quackers Nov 2014 #21

I live in the neighborhood where this happened. Let me describe it for you- LeftinOH Nov 2014 #97

i lived on west blvd near western. we left in 2003 . belzabubba333 Nov 2014 #113

Great post. cwydro Nov 2014 #120

US law on toy guns, etc. TorchTheWitch Nov 2014 #128

Thank You!! + infinity. MH1 Nov 2014 #135

Oh No - its the picture of the gun again FreakinDJ Nov 2014 #37

And what would you do cwydro Nov 2014 #69

By a child in a play ground - Point my finger and say BANG FreakinDJ Nov 2014 #70

Sure you would. cwydro Nov 2014 #73

You don't know him. Feral Child Nov 2014 #106

Sounds like you haven't lived in our shoes in what people call "bad" neighborhoods. Daemonaquila Nov 2014 #122

I live in a fairly nice neighborhood, but can still handle myself in the bad ones. ieoeja Nov 2014 #160

A 12 y.o. pointed a gun at my head mentalsolstice Nov 2014 #136

because 12 year olds never have real guns and never shoot people with them? onenote Nov 2014 #154

This is not a black and white issue. This is a right and wrong issue. nt Quackers Nov 2014 #71

Evidence Case No. Reformed Bully Nov 2014 #60

How do you know it was unofficially released? GGJohn Nov 2014 #61

Remember the phoney Darin Wilson X-rays FreakinDJ Nov 2014 #63

ABC News GGJohn Nov 2014 #64

The problem with pictures...the early articles talk about scratching off the orange tip. HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #74

It has been shown all over Cleveland media as the gun used by the kid liberal N proud Nov 2014 #84

Yes...we saw it in every thread regarding this shooting. FarPoint Nov 2014 #75

After reading the entire thread with comments ... JEFF9K Nov 2014 #139

I think your going to be disappointed with this yeoman6987 Nov 2014 #2

911 caller twice said it could be fake Garion_55 Nov 2014 #6

And that info wasn't passed on to the responding officers. GGJohn Nov 2014 #8

No - Look at the photo of the 12yr old boy how died FreakinDJ Nov 2014 #42

That has nothing to do with the fact that the child had in his possession, GGJohn Nov 2014 #46

It means nothing to a Bigot Hell Bent on killing Black Children FreakinDJ Nov 2014 #53

I fully support the killing of black children? GGJohn Nov 2014 #56

Naked Hatred for the Killing of Children FreakinDJ Nov 2014 #58

I don't bite into wax fruit and eat it just because it looks real. FarPoint Nov 2014 #76

If you guess wrong about a wax apple, it probably won't kill you Orrex Nov 2014 #88

Its alright Orrex... FarPoint Nov 2014 #94

Thanks, but your analogy is still absurd whether I'm on my game or not. Orrex Nov 2014 #96

I just... Oktober Nov 2014 #91

I'm disappointed in how drastically the profession of law enforcement has depreciated. FarPoint Nov 2014 #93

Lot of cops that you know from back in the day that would tolerate anyone pointing a gun at them? Oktober Nov 2014 #95

Did the kid actually point the gun at the cops? I hadn't heard that. Comrade Grumpy Nov 2014 #125

Soooo cops have to wait for a gun to be drawn and pointed at them before GGJohn Nov 2014 #127

At what point is it ok for a cop to fire at someone? Oktober Nov 2014 #132

If opposing the killing of innocent children makes one a bigot, then DU has really gone to shit. n/t ieoeja Nov 2014 #164

I'm opposed to the killing of all children, GGJohn Nov 2014 #166

Could be fake, also means the gun could be real. branford Nov 2014 #10

You're = You are RandiFan1290 Nov 2014 #78

There are far too many opinions masquerading as fact in the OP to warrant a substantive response. branford Nov 2014 #3

This kid wasn't unarmed, he had an airsoft handgun that looked remarkably realistic. GGJohn Nov 2014 #4

If those cops were seriously so scared shitless of a 12 year old 99th_Monkey Nov 2014 #18

Did you even look at the picture of the gun? GGJohn Nov 2014 #19

This is a freaking 12 year old we're talking about here. 99th_Monkey Nov 2014 #23

Oh I get it, GGJohn Nov 2014 #29

I do have a clear bias 99th_Monkey Nov 2014 #44

The gun looked real. The gun LOOKS real. Jenoch Nov 2014 #67

And the 12 y. o. boy LOOKED "dangerous" 99th_Monkey Nov 2014 #140

You might be correct. Jenoch Nov 2014 #155

Huh? branford Nov 2014 #20

Please see 99th_Monkey Nov 2014 #26

Are you actually suggesting a police officer can only fire on a suspect branford Nov 2014 #31

The slimy part is that you are correct but they won't admit it... Oktober Nov 2014 #39

Wait? You do not believe some dead cops is better than some dead, innocent children? ieoeja Nov 2014 #165

No it's not... Oktober Nov 2014 #172

Police officers need not --unreasonably-- risk their lives. branford Nov 2014 #179

When the "suspect" is 12 with a bb gun, THEN yes. Take cover, stay safe, talk, observe ... 99th_Monkey Nov 2014 #50

Interesting. Could you kindly provide your relevant expertise on tactics and police procedure, branford Nov 2014 #57

If it is just them treestar Nov 2014 #147

12 year olds have shot people treestar Nov 2014 #55

To say it's "not impossible" is VERY different 99th_Monkey Nov 2014 #66

They have to know it's a BB gun before they can be judged on treestar Nov 2014 #142

What an officer KNOWS or ASSUMES he/she knows 99th_Monkey Nov 2014 #156

If she'd done the same thing, I don't think they'd treestar Nov 2014 #176

what should they do if it's a seven-year-old with a weapon? zazen Nov 2014 #68

If the blonde girl is waving a gun around in a playground XemaSab Nov 2014 #85

That's all certainly possible and could be taken into account treestar Nov 2014 #143

This 12-yo wanted people to think he was dangerous XemaSab Nov 2014 #82

And he found cops stupid & incompetent enough to fall for it nt 99th_Monkey Nov 2014 #138

it was a fucking bb gun noiretextatique Nov 2014 #24

You know that after the fact. branford Nov 2014 #33

because...the 911 caller said it might be fake noiretextatique Nov 2014 #52

Might be fake also means might be real. branford Nov 2014 #59

And the cops didn't know that. GGJohn Nov 2014 #34

UH...DUH: I got that the FIRST time you posted the BB gun noiretextatique Nov 2014 #49

OK. GGJohn Nov 2014 #51

Alledgedly... BklnDem75 Nov 2014 #81

Well, you got the "don't care" part right. ManiacJoe Nov 2014 #188

What's your point? Oktober Nov 2014 #40

what is yours, to defend killer cops noiretextatique Nov 2014 #54

Is there a scenario in which you might conclude that the cop's actions were justified? Orrex Nov 2014 #107

there are some people for whom the police officer is always wrong treestar Nov 2014 #148

And no way to keep track of them, either Orrex Nov 2014 #158

Only real guns require background checks in Ohio. FarPoint Nov 2014 #79

Lots of assumptions are being made. Once the video is released, we will know more. uppityperson Nov 2014 #9

A reasonable voice. GGJohn Nov 2014 #11

you are not reasonable. noiretextatique Nov 2014 #25

And how many times does this have to be shown to you? GGJohn Nov 2014 #32

Post it as often as you want. cwydro Nov 2014 #77

Maybe this is a reason why the "haters" don't buy into it! atreides1 Nov 2014 #173

LOL, funny coming from you! nt Logical Nov 2014 #110

Eventually the only way P.O.s will be believed is if they take a bullet first... Rye Bread Pizza Nov 2014 #12

Maybe the shooters finger slipped and pulled the trigger... Oktober Nov 2014 #13

The police officer may also have been shot by an unknown sniper, branford Nov 2014 #22

I am too new to up vote but that was a good one. n/t Rye Bread Pizza Nov 2014 #141

you mean a BB, in this case noiretextatique Nov 2014 #27

Which the cops didn't know at the time of the confrontation. GGJohn Nov 2014 #36

but YOU know it now, so stop claiming he was armed noiretextatique Nov 2014 #38

He was armed, that's not a lie, GGJohn Nov 2014 #41

you are so full of it noiretextatique Nov 2014 #47

And you continue to post utter nonsense. GGJohn Nov 2014 #48

you are full of shit noiretextatique Nov 2014 #197

If someone pulled that "gun" on you and demanded your wallet XemaSab Nov 2014 #86

did he do that? noiretextatique Nov 2014 #199

xemasab asked a question I would like to see your answer you joeglow3 Nov 2014 #152

no answer noiretextatique Nov 2014 #198

I have had a gun pulled on me joeglow3 Nov 2014 #200

thank you...scared white american white man noiretextatique Nov 2014 #202

I sure as shit wouldn't wait to get shot before defending myself joeglow3 Nov 2014 #205

a fng bb gun...does it even matter to you that it is not real? noiretextatique Nov 2014 #206

When I had a gun pulled on me, the person claimed to have a bomb joeglow3 Nov 2014 #207

Sadly, so many folks are walking around with gunz nowadays, more and more of this will happen. Hoyt Nov 2014 #14

not if you are white eom noiretextatique Nov 2014 #203

Suicide by cop. ManiacJoe Nov 2014 #15

that's the cop's story eom noiretextatique Nov 2014 #28

Not according to any article I have seen. ManiacJoe Nov 2014 #30

the cop claimed he reached in his waist noiretextatique Nov 2014 #43

Enough with the "unarmed kid" bullshit. You know better. ManiacJoe Nov 2014 #62

he had a fng BB gun, you idiot noiretextatique Nov 2014 #204

Congrats, you are beginning to understand. ManiacJoe Nov 2014 #208

The Police are pushing very hard here, to make their case, for a full blown Police State 99th_Monkey Nov 2014 #16

food for thought Aerows Nov 2014 #17

as soon as we get rid of the last crew noiretextatique Nov 2014 #45

"it is almost a tacit implication of guilty if they remain silent for hours" Oktober Nov 2014 #35

Sounds like more king of hill crap. Eleanors38 Nov 2014 #65

It looks like a real gun. Quantess Nov 2014 #72

Yes, the police want you to think that, why would they HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #80

And yet you seem already to have declared him guilty. Orrex Nov 2014 #90

No, I think the police are guilty of a PR push that's inherently unfair HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #151

And if the police didn't immediately provide their story, show the gun in evidence, etc., branford Nov 2014 #159

The police need to treat a homicide investigation like...a homicide investigation HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #162

Is the famly under a gag order? Orrex Nov 2014 #167

The family really isn't in a position to examine and question evidence. HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #168

Has their attorney been denied access to the evidence? Orrex Nov 2014 #169

I object to the PD's presentation of the evidence to the media HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #170

You are welcome to voice that objection. Orrex Nov 2014 #171

And I will. Police statements are subject to conflict of interest and nothing HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #175

It's not as exculpatory as you seem to want it to be. Orrex Nov 2014 #178

How exculpatory it is, isn't the issue. The cops playing public opinion IS HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #180

You are welcome to your opinion. Orrex Nov 2014 #181

I expect them to not treat it as 'exceptional' HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #182

I am not interested in platitudes Orrex Nov 2014 #186

It looks like a real gun. Quantess Nov 2014 #101

That's not really the point...the point is the police are working the public attitude. HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #157

That is certainly possible. Quantess Nov 2014 #174

The police SHOULD BE SILENT. That is what a fair trial depends on HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #177

Police should be silent? Quantess Nov 2014 #189

Excuse me for wanting to be so old fashioned as to be non-prejudicial HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #192

Why are toy manufacturers allowed to sell those? stone space Nov 2014 #83

Because most owners use them responsibly. ManiacJoe Nov 2014 #187

like I asked upthread, what if this were a seven-year-old? or four-year-old? zazen Nov 2014 #87

Are you willing to be shot trying to talk to a minor reaching for what appears to be a real gun? Lurks Often Nov 2014 #92

so should I shoot a five-year-old reaching for what appears to be a real gun? zazen Nov 2014 #98

Do you equate "reaching for" with "pulled out of his waistband?" Orrex Nov 2014 #99

I have no idea--I'm using the last poster's words to clarify whether cops should shoot a small child zazen Nov 2014 #100

Then you're asking a question that's tangential to the issue at hand Orrex Nov 2014 #105

I asked a simple question, are you willing to be shot by a child Lurks Often Nov 2014 #102

how weird--getting attacked from all sides here when I don't even have a position zazen Nov 2014 #112

Still avoiding the answer Lurks Often Nov 2014 #115

Can you name a single law enforcement agency Jenoch Nov 2014 #126

And the use of that would have met the same condemnation treestar Nov 2014 #149

This is true treestar Nov 2014 #146

Guns are no easier to get now then in 1968 Lurks Often Nov 2014 #153

It was a 12 year old, not 16, not 20, not 8, not 4. Quantess Nov 2014 #190

This is a cop's nightmare. Vinca Nov 2014 #89

But the kid didn't point the gun at the cop Beaverhausen Nov 2014 #114

They never even say "Drop the gun" any more. Darb Nov 2014 #117

The story I read said the officers saw the gun on Jenoch Nov 2014 #129

Do you think the cop was just itchin' to shoot a 12 year old? MH1 Nov 2014 #137

Undeniable? Were you there? Beaverhausen Nov 2014 #150

are you fng kidding me? noiretextatique Nov 2014 #201

Actually, yes, I think he was itching to shoot him Nevernose Nov 2014 #214

Simply reaching - you're holding the cop to a standard that he has to be shot first? treestar Nov 2014 #145

Or not teaching them to put their hands up so the cop won't shoot them treestar Nov 2014 #144

Gun love, gun promotion, gun fever. We are shooting and killing ourselves and the NPR kelliekat44 Nov 2014 #116

It's self-perpetuating lunacy. Darb Nov 2014 #118

National Public Radio? Throd Nov 2014 #119

I hate those NPR gun toters. aikoaiko Nov 2014 #123

But I love the NPR gun totebags. Orrex Nov 2014 #124

Those totebags Duckhunter935 Nov 2014 #134

I though only NPR lifetime members could get the totebag? branford Nov 2014 #161

The truest thing we've heard today! Quantess Nov 2014 #193

video is now out! Garion_55 Nov 2014 #209

I'm noticing a lot of the 'wait and see' crew had no problem condemning this kid... BklnDem75 Nov 2014 #210