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Octafish

(55,745 posts)
108. Except JFK did not order assassination, despite what E Howard Hunt and CIA want us to believe.
Mon Nov 24, 2014, 12:53 PM
Nov 2014

On his deathbed, E Howard Hunt blamed LBJ and called himself a "benchwarmer," on-call only if needed. What Hunt did not bring up:

While working for President Nixon, Hunt worked to blame the assassination of South Vietnamese president Diem on Kennedy by planting phony State Department cables in a White House safe when Nixon was president.



Hunt was a professional disinformationist.

Here may be what Hunt and CIA don't want brought up:

'Arrogant' CIA Disobeys Orders in Viet Nam



A bit of history from the last weeks of President Kennedy's life,
courtesy of The Education Forum by DUer John Simkin :



'SPOOKS' MAKE LIFE MISERABLE FOR AMBASSADOR LODGE

'Arrogant' CIA Disobeys Orders in Viet Nam


Richard Starnes
The Washington Daily News, Wednesday, October 2, 1963, p.3

SAIGON, Oct.2 - The story of the Central Intelligence Agency's role in South Viet Nam is a dismal chronicle of bureaucratic arrogance, obstinate disregard of orders, and unrestrained thirst for power.

Twice the CIA flatly refused to carry out instructions from Ambassador Henry Cabot Lodge, according to a high United States source here.

In one of these instances the CIA frustrated a plan of action Mr. Lodge brought with him from Washington because the agency disagreed with it.

This led to a dramatic confrontation between Mr. Lodge and John Richardson, chief of the huge CIA apparatus here. Mr. Lodge failed to move Mr. Richardson, and the dispute was bucked back to Washington. Secretary of State Dean Rusk and CIA Chief John A. McCone were unable to resolve the conflict, and the matter is now reported to be awaiting settlement by President Kennedy.

It is one of the developments expected to be covered in Defense Secretary Robert McNamara's report to Mr. Kennedy.

Others Critical, Too

Other American agencies here are incredibly bitter about the CIA.

"If the United States ever experiences a 'Seven Days in May' it will come from the CIA, and not from the Pentagon," one U.S. official commented caustically.

("Seven Days in May" is a fictional account of an attempted military coup to take over the U.S. Government.)

CIA "spooks" (a universal term for secret agents here) have penetrated every branch of the American community in Saigon, until non-spook Americans here almost seem to be suffering a CIA psychosis.

An American field officer with a distinguished combat career speaks angrily about "that man at headquarters in Saigon wearing a colonel's uniform." He means the man is a CIA agent, and he can't understand what he is doing at U.S. military headquarters here, unless it is spying on other Americans.

Another American officer, talking about the CIA, acidly commented: "You'd think they'd have learned something from Cuba but apparently they didn't."

Few Know CIA Strength

Few people other than Mr. Richardson and his close aides know the actual CIA strength here, but a widely used figure is 600. Many are clandestine agents known only to a few of their fellow spooks.

Even Mr. Richardson is a man about whom it is difficult to learn much in Saigon. He is said to be a former OSS officer, and to have served with distinction in the CIA in the Philippines.

A surprising number of the spooks are known to be involved in their ghostly trade and some make no secret of it.

"There are a number of spooks in the U.S. Information Service, in the U.S. Operations mission, in every aspect of American official and commercial life here, " one official - presumably a non-spook - said.

"They represent a tremendous power and total unaccountability to anyone," he added.

Coupled with the ubiquitous secret police of Ngo Dinh Nhu, a surfeit of spooks has given Saigon an oppressive police state atmosphere.

The Nhu-Richardson relationship is a subject of lively speculation. The CIA continues to pay the special forces which conducted brutal raids on Buddhist temples last Aug. 21, altho in fairness it should be pointed out that the CIA is paying these goons for the war against communist guerillas, not Buddhist bonzes (priests).

Hand Over Millions

Nevertheless, on the first of every month, the CIA dutifully hands over a quarter million American dollars to pay these special forces.

Whatever else it buys, it doesn't buy any solid information on what the special forces are up to. The Aug. 21 raids caught top U.S. officials here and in Washington flat-footed.

Nhu ordered the special forces to crush the Buddhist priests, but the CIA wasn't let in on the secret. (Some CIA button men now say they warned their superiors what was coming up, but in any event the warning of harsh repression was never passed to top officials here or in Washington.)

Consequently, Washington reacted unsurely to the crisis. Top officials here and at home were outraged at the news the CIA was paying the temple raiders, but the CIA continued the payments.

It may not be a direct subsidy for a religious war against the country's Buddhist majority, but it comes close to that.

And for every State Department aide here who will tell you, "Dammit, the CIA is supposed to gather information, not make policy, but policy-making is what they're doing here," there are military officers who scream over the way the spooks dabble in military operations.

A Typical Example

For example, highly trained trail watchers are an important part of the effort to end Viet Cong infiltration from across the Laos and Cambodia borders. But if the trailer watchers spot incoming Viet Congs, they report it to the CIA in Saigon, and in the fullness of time, the spooks may tell the military.

One very high American official here, a man who has spent much of his life in the service of democracy, likened the CIA's growth to a malignancy, and added he was not sure even the White House could control it any longer.

Unquestionably Mr. McNamara and Gen. Maxwell Taylor both got an earful from people who are beginning to fear the CIA is becoming a Third Force co-equal with President Diem's regime and the U.S. Government - and answerable to neither.

There is naturally the highest interest here as to whether Mr. McNamara will persuade Mr. Kennedy something ought to be done about it.

SOURCE:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7534&mode=threaded



ADDENDUM from Education Forum writer:



“The most important consequence of the Cold War remains the least discussed. How and why American democracy died lies beyond the scope of this introductory essay. It is enough to note that the CIA revolt against the presidency of John Fitzgerald Kennedy – the single event which did more than any other to hasten its end – was, quite contrary to over forty years of censorship and deceit, both publicly anticipated and publicly opposed.

No American journalist worked more bravely to thwart the anticipated revolt than Scripps-Howard’s Richard Starnes. His ‘reward’ was effectively to become a non-person, not just in the work of mainstream fellow-journalists and historians, but also that of nominally oppositional Kennedy assassination writers. It could have been worse: John J. McCone, Director of Central Intelligence, sought his instant dismissal; while others within the agency doubtless had more drastic punishment in mind, almost certainly of the kind meted out to CBS’ George Polk fifteen years earlier.

This time, shrewder agency minds prevailed. Senator Dodd was given a speech to read by the CIA denouncing Starnes in everything but name. William F. Buckley, Jr., suddenly occupied an adjacent column. In short, Starnes was allowed to live, even as his Scripps-Howard career was put under overt and intense CIA scrutiny - and quietly, systematically, withered on the Mockingbird vine.”

From “Light on a Dry Shadow,” the preface to ‘Arrogant’ CIA: The Selected Scripps-Howard Journalism of Richard T. Starnes, 1960-1965 (provisionally scheduled for self-publication in November 2006).

As far as I am aware, the remarkable example (above) of what Claud Cockburn called “preventative journalism” has never appeared in its entirety anywhere on the internet. Instead, readers have had to make do with the next-day riposte of the NYT’s Arthur Krock. The latter, it should be noted, was a veteran CIA-mouthpiece and messenger boy.

Dick Starnes was 85 on July 4, 2006. He remains, in bucolic retirement, a wonderfully fluent and witty writer; and as good a friend as any Englishman could wish for.

I dedicate the despatch’s web debut to Judy Mann, in affectionate remembrance.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7534



Kennedy's approach to the problems of Vietnam and southeast Asia was very different from Eisenhower, as well as from Johnson and Nixon. His successors had no problem pulling the trigger, bringing in the ground troups to fight, and getting the nation into a war without knowing how or when to get out. Sounds familiar.



Galbraith and Vietnam

by RICHARD PARKER
The Nation, March 14, 2005 issue

In the fall of 1961, unknown to the American public, John F. Kennedy was weighing a crucial decision about Vietnam not unlike that which George W. Bush faced about Iraq in early 2002--whether to go to war. It was the height of the cold war, when Communism was the "terrorist threat," and Ho Chi Minh the era's Saddam Hussein to many in Washington. But the new President was a liberal Massachusetts Democrat (and a decorated war veteran), not a conservative Sunbelt Republican who claimed God's hand guided his foreign policy. JFK's tough-minded instincts about war were thus very different. Contrary to what many have come to believe about the Vietnam War's origins, new research shows that Kennedy wanted no war in Asia and had clear criteria for conditions under which he'd send Americans abroad to fight and die for their country--criteria quite relevant today.

But thanks also in part to recently declassified records, we now know that Kennedy's top aides--whatever his own views--were offering him counsel not all that different from what Bush was told forty years later. Early that November, his personal military adviser, Gen. Maxwell Taylor, and his deputy National Security Adviser, Walt Rostow, were on their way back from Saigon with a draft of the "Taylor report," their bold plan to "save" Vietnam, beginning with the commitment of at least 8,000 US troops--a down payment, they hoped, on thousands more to follow. But they knew JFK had no interest in their idea because six months earlier in a top-secret meeting, he had forcefully vetoed his aides' proposed dispatch of 60,000 troops to neighboring Laos--and they were worried about how to maneuver his assent.

Harvard economist John Kenneth Galbraith, then Ambassador to India, got wind of their plan--and rushed to block their efforts. He was not an expert on Vietnam, but India chaired the International Control Commission, which had been set up following French withdrawal from Indochina to oversee a shaky peace accord meant to stabilize the region, and so from State Department cables he knew about the Taylor mission--and thus had a clear sense of what was at stake. For Galbraith, a trusted adviser with unique back-channel access to the President, a potential US war in Vietnam represented more than a disastrous misadventure in foreign policy--it risked derailing the New Frontier's domestic plans for Keynesian-led full employment, and for massive new spending on education, the environment and what would become the War on Poverty. Worse, he feared, it might ultimately tear not only the Democratic Party but the nation apart--and usher in a new conservative era in American politics.

Early that November, just as Taylor and his team arrived back in Washington, Galbraith arrived from New Delhi for the state visit of Prime Minister Nehru. Hoping to gain a quick upper hand over Taylor and his mission, he arranged a private luncheon for Kennedy and Nehru at the Newport estate of Jacqueline Kennedy's mother and stepfather. No one from the State Department--to Secretary of State Dean Rusk's great consternation--was invited, save Galbraith. Ten days earlier, Galbraith, in one of his back-channel messages, had shared with Kennedy his growing concerns about Vietnam. From India, he'd played a role in defusing the Laos situation that spring, but over the summer, the Berlin crisis had sent a sharp chill through relations with the Soviets, with the risks of nuclear confrontation for a time all too real. About this, Galbraith now told the President:

Although at times I have been rather troubled by Berlin, I have always had the feeling that it would be worked out. I have continued to worry far, far more about South Viet Nam. This is more complex, far less controllable, far more varied in the factors involved, far more susceptible to misunderstanding. And to make matters worse, I have no real confidence in the sophistication and political judgment of our people there.

This was advice Kennedy was hearing from no one else in his Administration, but clearly welcomed.

CONTINUED...

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050314/parker



So, to prevent war...



Papers reveal JFK efforts on Vietnam

By Bryan Bender, Globe Staff
Boston Globe June 6, 2005

EXCERPT...

Records show that McNamara and the military brass quickly criticized the proposal. An April 14 Pentagon memo to Kennedy said that ''a reversal of US policy could have disastrous effects, not only upon our relationship with South Vietnam, but with the rest of our Asian and other allies as well."

Nevertheless, Kennedy later told Harriman to instruct Galbraith to pursue the channel through M. J. Desai, then India's foreign secretary. At the time, the United States had only 1,500 military advisers in South Vietnam.

''The president wants to have instructions sent to Ambassador Galbraith to talk to Desai telling him that if Hanoi takes steps to reduce guerrilla activity , we would correspond accordingly," Harriman states in an April 17, 1962, memo to his staff. ''If they stop the guerrilla activity entirely, we would withdraw to a normal basis."

A draft cable dated the same day instructed Galbraith to use Desai as a ''channel discreetly communicating to responsible leaders North Vietnamese regime . . . the president's position as he indicated it."

But a week later, Harriman met with Kennedy and apparently persuaded him to delay, according to other documents, and the overture was never revived.

CONTINUED...

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/06/06/papers_reveal_jfk_efforts_on_vietnam/



Which didn't stop some circles from trying to kindle a conflagration...



From The Secret History of the CIA by Joseph Trento:

EXCERPT…

Who changed the coup into the murder of Diem, Nhu and a Catholic priest accompanying them? To this day, nothing has been found in government archives tying the killings to either John or Robert Kennedy. So how did the tools and talents developed by Bill Harvey for ZR/RIFLE and Operation MONGOOSE get exported to Vietnam? Kennedy immediately ordered (William R.) Corson to find out what had happened and who was responsible. The answer he came up with: “On instructions from Averell Harriman…. The orders that ended in the deaths of Diem and his brother originated with Harriman and were carried out by Henry Cabot Lodge’s own military assistant.”

Having served as ambassador to Moscow and governor of New York, W. Averell Harriman was in the middle of a long public career. In 1960, President-elect Kennedy appointed him ambassador-at-large, to operate “with the full confidence of the president and an intimate knowledge of all aspects of United States policy.” By 1963, according to Corson, Harriman was running “Vietnam without consulting the president or the attorney general.”

The president had begun to suspect that not everyone on his national security team was loyal. As Corson put it, “Kenny O’Donnell (JFK’s appointments secretary) was convinced that McGeorge Bundy, the national security advisor, was taking orders from Ambassador Averell Harriman and not the president. He was especially worried about Michael Forrestal, a young man on the White House staff who handled liaison on Vietnam with Harriman.”

At the heart of the murders was the sudden and strange recall of Saigon Station Chief Jocko Richardson and his replacement by a no-name team barely known to history. The key member was a Special Operations Army officer, John Michael Dunn, who took his orders, not from the normal CIA hierarchy but from Harriman and Forrestal.

According to Corson, “John Michael Dunn was known to be in touch with the coup plotters,” although Dunn’s role has never been made public. Corson believes that Richardson was removed so that Dunn, assigned to Ambassador Lodtge for “special operations,” could act without hindrance.

SOURCE:

“The Secret History of the CIA.” Joseph Trento. 2001, Prima Publishing. pp. 334-335.



And, as you wrote, craigmatic, there was no stable government after that in Vietnam. The place was ripe for looting.
Since November 22, 1963... [View all] Octafish Nov 2014 OP
So long ago and yet such a vivid memory. Autumn Nov 2014 #1
It was a time when we could do anything we dared imagine. Octafish Nov 2014 #4
Apollo 8. Rounded the moon to see Earthrise. longship Nov 2014 #11
Oswald did it? I don't think so. man4allcats Nov 2014 #58
+1 nationalize the fed Nov 2014 #19
You forgot Dr Hobbitstein Nov 2014 #87
'We have more will than wallet.' -- George Herbert Walker Bush, inaugural address Octafish Nov 2014 #116
And we did it in less than a decade and under budget. LongTomH Nov 2014 #81
I remember Horse with no Name Nov 2014 #2
The American Dream was alive and well. Octafish Nov 2014 #9
I live in Sam Rayburn country and I am perplexed...to say the least...that it is very conservative Horse with no Name Nov 2014 #12
You are the jewel of DU, Octafish. ReRe Nov 2014 #38
Ditto. Octafish, you are the best. n/t 7wo7rees Nov 2014 #48
I concur 100% hifiguy Nov 2014 #111
Octafish is a him? ReRe Nov 2014 #114
thank you for posting this. niyad Nov 2014 #69
They day the music died. Rex Nov 2014 #3
The day the music died.... ollie4 Nov 2014 #36
Well now, that's one way of interpreting McLean's magnum opus. But one could say that KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #42
America was touched by the lowest demons in our nature, setting us on a different course. Octafish Nov 2014 #62
JFK resisted a 'first strike' at least twice: LongTomH Nov 2014 #85
And that's one way they've been able to advance their sick agenda. Lars39 Nov 2014 #5
That brings to mind an INSOC slogan. zeemike Nov 2014 #32
''If it wasn't on tee vee, it didn't happen.'' Octafish Nov 2014 #65
...this country has seen the corruption of our liberties by the MIC become the norm. robertpaulsen Nov 2014 #6
Look who gets ahead these days. Octafish Nov 2014 #66
Scary. The prospect of Jeb in 2016 is nauseating. robertpaulsen Nov 2014 #91
that photo makes me want to ralph grasswire Nov 2014 #101
But he did nothing to curb it during his presidency OnlinePoker Nov 2014 #74
Sadly, I agree. The CIA overthrow of Mossadegh happened on Ike's watch. robertpaulsen Nov 2014 #90
...and Cuba. Ike was president when Dulles hired the Mafia to kill Castro -- 1960. Octafish Nov 2014 #93
I was 14 in 1963. I'd like to think I still have a few years left. scarletwoman Nov 2014 #7
I was watching an old Christmas movie the other night... Frustratedlady Nov 2014 #8
It is remarkable, the moments when it strikes. For me, HBO's ''Nixon by Nixon''... Octafish Nov 2014 #67
What ReRe said: love_katz Nov 2014 #71
Some day, the truth will surely come out. Frustratedlady Nov 2014 #82
It's distressing to see progressives living in/obsessing over the past YoungDemCA Nov 2014 #10
Why? n/t jtuck004 Nov 2014 #17
The clue might be in the word "progressive" YoungDemCA Nov 2014 #22
Since we are discussing people who need clues, perhaps you should spend a few moments jtuck004 Nov 2014 #25
Your history is flawed... YoungDemCA Nov 2014 #27
WHy don't you look up "hungry", which is what the children of the people who have been put and left jtuck004 Nov 2014 #31
I am old enough to have lived that history. zeemike Nov 2014 #35
+1 ReRe Nov 2014 #41
+1 Hekate Nov 2014 #55
+ 1 prairierose Nov 2014 #83
+1 frogmarch Nov 2014 #86
Hey, my friend, please do not confuse 'nostalgia' with 'reactionary.' I can assure you that KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #46
thanks for the lecture olddots Nov 2014 #75
Maybe just maybe we learn from the past that life does not have to suck like it does today. That jwirr Nov 2014 #80
As touchstones go, Camelot still beats 9/11. nt pinboy3niner Nov 2014 #20
Just for the poetry, if nothing else. :) - nt KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #47
+1 Hekate Nov 2014 #49
It's Remembering the past, not obsessing about the past. Dont call me Shirley Nov 2014 #23
Thank you Dont...Shirley. elleng Nov 2014 #28
'twas ever thus hifiguy Nov 2014 #112
Thank you, hifiguy. Dont call me Shirley Nov 2014 #113
It's one sentence! Or are you referring to his posts in the: PAST! johnnyreb Nov 2014 #30
WTF? Historians round the world are shaking their fists at you! :) - nt KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #43
It's even more distressing to see 'progressives' forget what their party is supposed to be about. sabrina 1 Nov 2014 #77
History, if you don't know, repeats. For instance, ''Hairpin Turns''... Octafish Nov 2014 #94
I remember what the world was like then. blue neen Nov 2014 #13
Equality was important to President Kennedy. Ask Abraham Bolden... Octafish Nov 2014 #95
Yep. Cleita Nov 2014 #14
K&R. Overseas Nov 2014 #39
The Day That Shall "ACTUALLY" Live In Infamy... WillyT Nov 2014 #15
Sung to the tune of American Pie ... Martin Eden Nov 2014 #16
I was three. I still remember how upset I was. My mother had the old B & W tv on, I was watching Dont call me Shirley Nov 2014 #18
I wasn't alive then. RedCappedBandit Nov 2014 #21
I don't want to piss in people's nostalgia Cheerios unduly, but JFK and RFK continued to KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #45
People do forget that. Wella Nov 2014 #84
JFK entered office as a 'Cold War hawk' (he even ran to Nixon's KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #97
That is a misconception repeated over the years. Octafish Nov 2014 #98
JFK's assassination heralded the start of a string of murders of our best and brightest.... Hekate Nov 2014 #50
+1000 pinboy3niner Nov 2014 #53
Thank you for such a well thought out response. RedCappedBandit Nov 2014 #99
I agree. burrowowl Nov 2014 #103
What Cicero said. Octafish Nov 2014 #96
So true! I was 10 Carolina Nov 2014 #24
Been thinking about this today, Octafish, elleng Nov 2014 #26
I turned five earlier that year. Brigid Nov 2014 #29
The day America jumped the shark. Initech Nov 2014 #33
Those weren't really great times for minorities and I really don't see it as craigmatic Nov 2014 #34
Marvellously ignorant statement Hekate Nov 2014 #51
No I've read Dallek's book and seen all the documentaries but I'm not impressed by JFK. craigmatic Nov 2014 #63
JFK appears to be way overrated cpwm17 Nov 2014 #68
Probably it would help understanding if you had actually been there. The Cold War was not one-sided Hekate Nov 2014 #72
And FDR ran as a budget balancer. Smart people learn, grow, and change. RufusTFirefly Nov 2014 #78
Maybe you're right but it all comes back to ideology with JFK for me or rather his lack of one. craigmatic Nov 2014 #79
LBJ had to lie America into War on Vietnam Octafish Nov 2014 #105
Once JFK allowed the Vietnamese military to kill Ngo and his brother we owned Vietnam. craigmatic Nov 2014 #107
Except JFK did not order assassination, despite what E Howard Hunt and CIA want us to believe. Octafish Nov 2014 #108
What is a "Kennedy Democrat"? SleeplessinSoCal Nov 2014 #37
That makes no sense whatsoever applied to O'Reilly Hekate Nov 2014 #52
Jon Stewart said O'Reilly seemed ALMOST a Kennedy Democrat in comparison to RW extremists pinboy3niner Nov 2014 #56
In other words, a humorous exaggeration by a satirist for comic effect. Makes more sense that way. Hekate Nov 2014 #57
Different source SleeplessinSoCal Nov 2014 #59
A Democrat who stands for: Justice. Freedom. Equality. Peace. Prosperity. Octafish Nov 2014 #109
I think it's some kind of conservative Democrat SleeplessinSoCal Nov 2014 #115
It was Christmas day for American fascism nikto Nov 2014 #40
It really has been every warmongers' dream come true ever since. Octafish Nov 2014 #110
I was ten then. It was a good time for my family. Mr.Bill Nov 2014 #44
Not long after Kennedy's "Camelot" came and went SleeplessinSoCal Nov 2014 #60
"Pierre Salinger" "Pierre who? Who is that?" NBachers Nov 2014 #54
It has been downhill since that awful day. n//t Paper Roses Nov 2014 #61
K&R Zorra Nov 2014 #64
K&R bobthedrummer Nov 2014 #70
"You will remember this birthday, HockeyMom Nov 2014 #73
My Mom was a teacher at the time shenmue Nov 2014 #76
Since that day in November 63 heaven05 Nov 2014 #88
I remember. ColesCountyDem Nov 2014 #89
Yes I remember old man 76 Nov 2014 #92
It was a hell of a time to be a white male, that's for damn sure. Orrex Nov 2014 #100
Sure was. Hear Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. describe what JFK did during the 1960 campaign... Octafish Nov 2014 #104
Try to imagine mainstreetonce Nov 2014 #102
For a time capsule of the transition from the idealism of the late 1950s to GreatGazoo Nov 2014 #106
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