General Discussion

turbinetree

(27,488 posts)

45. Leadership

Wed Dec 3, 2014, 01:56 PM

Dec 2014

The leadership on this issue had blue dog democrats siding with the republicans, lets get this in the picture and they are now gone and some are now in the health care lobbyist industry or ambassadors in the Far East.
We told, asked, cajoled and pleaded to the leadership to have the public option in and on the table, but there was one man from Montana who was not having any of this and he was the chair on the oversight budget committee, he had the means to say yes or no, and took the latter, and then when others decided to back away, this public option was in trouble from the get go.
We need to get HUMAN BEINGS in CONGRESS to correct this option for universal health care, I am presently looking at exchanges now in the "MARKETPLACE" and all I am seeing is greed.
I am asked if I have a pre-existing condition---why, I called asked one of the representatives why is this being asked, HIPPA says I do not have to disclose this information unless it is to my doctor under the privacy laws, I am being based on income affordability for a metal plan, what happens if I loose my job, what happens if I am a contractor for a firm, I am stuck for the entire year with this bill, do I have to pay COBRA like fees.
I can not get a separate plans for me and my wife based on our health need.
Schumer should have proposed a universal system from the day he was elected and had it on the table for consideration everyday or in committee, he should now be putting this measurer on the table and everyday we will see the right wing table the plan and everyday a democrat should put it right back on the table show principles, even if Touché Turtle doesn't like it, expose the hypocrisy that's how you win.
This should have and could been is degrading to the intellect.
They knew and everyone knew it was better to have a public option for the sake of competition but it was punted its that simple .
And if you have a employer helping with the costs it effects your wages, your benefit packages, and those that are looking in the plans based on costs see greed.
Some of us see the field goal punt being blocked for the win and we that believe in the public option see nothing but fourth and long

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

289 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Harkin: OBAMACARE Should Have Been SINGLE-PAYER But 'WE BLEW IT' [View all] Segami Dec 2014 OP

yep. nt antigop Dec 2014 #1

Yup! Sherman A1 Dec 2014 #2

Did he mention why he didn't get Lieberman to vote YES? JoePhilly Dec 2014 #3

You'll need to wait for Harkin's tell-all book Segami Dec 2014 #6

You are probably right. JoePhilly Dec 2014 #7

I wonder if Obama or Reid had told him you vote yes or no chair if he would have given in? Autumn Dec 2014 #10

See my post #49 ... he was never voting YES. JoePhilly Dec 2014 #50

Lieberman balked because of "liberal enthusiasm." AtomicKitten Dec 2014 #65

Yup ... that is the 3rd item in my post #49. JoePhilly Dec 2014 #71

"...outline...YES>." Volaris Dec 2014 #67

You think Lieberman cares about shame? JoePhilly Dec 2014 #70

I disagree, IMO there was leverage. The chairmanships he was given after campaigning for McCain. Autumn Dec 2014 #82

It was not enough. JoePhilly Dec 2014 #95

"It was not enough". Your opinion. When BO wanted Dennis Kucinich's cooperation GoneFishin Dec 2014 #157

Oh, please. Presidents have bargained with Senators on important votes since forever. merrily Dec 2014 #182

He wants millions as a lobbyist. jeff47 Dec 2014 #239

*massive eye roll* Easy. Have him call me. merrily Dec 2014 #251

So, you have no idea and are just spouting off. (nt) jeff47 Dec 2014 #259

If that's what you need to tell yourself, I can't stop you. merrily Dec 2014 #260

If you had a way to do it, you could say it here. jeff47 Dec 2014 #262

Fine. Prove I couldn't do it if I had access to Lieberman and the same leverage over merrily Dec 2014 #263

What leverage? jeff47 Dec 2014 #265

What is the goal of these exchanges, Jeff? merrily Dec 2014 #266

Well, some would use them as an opportunity to explain how they'd actually get Lieberman's vote. jeff47 Dec 2014 #267

Those would be the asses, Jeff. The notion that you can negotiate with Joe Lieberman in 2009 merrily Dec 2014 #269

Then why are you not only entertaining it, but supporting it? (nt) jeff47 Dec 2014 #270

Zzzzzzzz merrily Dec 2014 #271

I know, actually backing up your assertions can be so tiring. jeff47 Dec 2014 #272

I don't think that post helps you. merrily Dec 2014 #276

As if your lengthy string of evasions was helpful to you? jeff47 Dec 2014 #282

"Threaten aid to Israel and you lose several other senators. " Jesus Malverde Dec 2014 #277

And going all in with a pair of 4s when they're showing a pair of kings isn't gonna win. jeff47 Dec 2014 #281

Nope. Nothing Could Possibly Have Induced Lieberman to Vote For a Public Option AndyTiedye Dec 2014 #161

Yet with a 56 to 43 vote we got mandated health insurance. Autumn Dec 2014 #219

No, the second vote was to 43. jeff47 Dec 2014 #261

I don't buy it , Liberman would have caved if every other Democrat voted for single payer helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #26

He would have had company. geek tragedy Dec 2014 #32

I did forget but helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #43

Joe Lieberman was immune to pressure. geek tragedy Dec 2014 #55

They think "Obama pressure" beats a 7 figure think-tank deal. JoePhilly Dec 2014 #73

Electric Boat helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #108

Electric Boat helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #110

Wrong for four reasons. JoePhilly Dec 2014 #49

I go back to my other point for it to happen helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #51

Can't come up with a way to get Lieberman to vote YES? JoePhilly Dec 2014 #61

Electric Boat helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #113

My challange has caused others to go crazy too ... JoePhilly Dec 2014 #115

You asked me how to pressure Lieberman helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #117

Ahhh ... I see, at least you took a shot ... JoePhilly Dec 2014 #124

I don't buy that for a second helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #129

No, they didn't go crazy. They were only laughing at how silly the alleged challenge is. merrily Dec 2014 #208

you win so many points on your "whining" argument.. 2banon Dec 2014 #167

It is an insult to this President to claim he had zero influence over his own party. sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #235

You are right, but Andy823 Dec 2014 #64

The best answers to my question ... JoePhilly Dec 2014 #69

You you think the voters are sympathetic to a party that can't get the job done with 59 Senators? Doctor_J Dec 2014 #151

You've hit the nail on the head. Democrats, rather than doing what they needed to to get things done smokey nj Dec 2014 #155

Did he mention Ted Kennedy's illness and death? joshcryer Dec 2014 #173

No, it was not 20-30 days, but closer to 3-4 months. Besides, Kennedy's illness was no surprise. merrily Dec 2014 #183

39 days from Franken seating to Kennedy death. joshcryer Dec 2014 #186

LOL! You are not going to count Kennedy's hand picked place holder as a Democrat? merrily Dec 2014 #190

It always depended on Lieberman. joshcryer Dec 2014 #191

Again, Josh, read the thread. merrily Dec 2014 #193

Drop the circularity. joshcryer Dec 2014 #196

It's linear, not circular. Read the thread. merrily Dec 2014 #197

Read post #196. joshcryer Dec 2014 #201

I have. And responses are already on this thread. merrily Dec 2014 #202

No votes for P.O. reconciliation. joshcryer Dec 2014 #226

Lieberman would have voted 'yes' for anything to keep his chairs. All they had to do was sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #177

Lieberman valued his National Security chair a lot. merrily Dec 2014 #184

Exactly! The excuses are ridiculous. In Jan 2009 Dems not only had control of the Senate, Congress sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #233

Your last paragraph, ugh, tblue Dec 2014 #245

Yep. The lack of a strong public option, as promised, was the final straw for a number of Dems merrily Dec 2014 #250

Better query: Why did Lieberberman lose a chair for campaiging for McCain, but lose nothing at all merrily Dec 2014 #179

Kent Conrad, Tom Carper and Bill Nelson come to mind? joshcryer Dec 2014 #194

Replies to all your aged memes are already on this thread. Read it. merrily Dec 2014 #205

What would've made Kent Conrad vote for it? joshcryer Dec 2014 #214

Again, replies to that are already on this thread. merrily Dec 2014 #215

I am the only person who has mentioned Conrad. joshcryer Dec 2014 #220

Of all people, you should know to be careful what you call a lie, Josh. merrily Dec 2014 #221

Yes, "reconciliation" has less votes than flat out vote. joshcryer Dec 2014 #224

convenient talking point a2liberal Dec 2014 #187

What you mean "we", white man? tularetom Dec 2014 #4

Seriously. merrily Dec 2014 #185

No shit. I think we know why the law didn't include liberal policies like a single-payer health care Autumn Dec 2014 #5

See how fast the reTHUGS backed down Segami Dec 2014 #15

I doubt we will get there now. We have mandated health insurance. Autumn Dec 2014 #19

It's a pipe dream now helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #29

And Kasserine Pass was the point in which the U.S. lost the second world war... LanternWaste Dec 2014 #120

Thanks to Obama and Justice Roberts. merrily Dec 2014 #192

The war over single payer was with Joe Lieberman..... and we lost groundloop Dec 2014 #25

+1 zeemike Dec 2014 #59

IF President Obama wanted a public option or single payer dotymed Dec 2014 #94

"Bullied forward and gone to war" a black first-term President trying to get healthcare reform that kelliekat44 Dec 2014 #75

Same here, autumn. n/t truedelphi Dec 2014 #96

Just one more consequence of Democrats not having the balls to fight like Republicans do. world wide wally Dec 2014 #8

+1,000 Scuba Dec 2014 #16

That's the Truth pscot Dec 2014 #34

I disagree. It wasn't about balls. It was about getting what they set out to get. merrily Dec 2014 #203

Not in this case Jack Rabbit Dec 2014 #118

It was not about balls or vaginas or any other body part. See Reply 17 and others on this thread. merrily Dec 2014 #198

I agree bad negotiating tactics. gvstn Dec 2014 #9

But, but, but...... Little Star Dec 2014 #11

"The system is working" nt adirondacker Dec 2014 #12

I've finally discovered what politicians are good at: 20/20 hindsight. Buns_of_Fire Dec 2014 #13

They know damn good and well they are screwing the pooch while they're in the process of doing it. Autumn Dec 2014 #14

You're right. It's a shame that all their introspection and courage doesn't show up Buns_of_Fire Dec 2014 #21

I think that they have it planned that way. No responsibility Autumn Dec 2014 #37

It was planned and it was originally a Republican plan too. A Simple Game Dec 2014 #121

Wyoming conservatives to Heritage Foundation to Billarycare to Romneycare to Obamacare. merrily Dec 2014 #199

They very aggressively excluded advocates of Single Payer from the debate. Marr Dec 2014 #17

Yes. Le Taz Hot Dec 2014 #48

Thank you. Tell the truth and shame the devil, as the saying goes. merrily Dec 2014 #189

Thank you. woo me with science Dec 2014 #236

That's what we tried to tell them, but we are attacked and told we wanted 'ponies' and how sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #18

As usual, sabrina, you strike the nail squarely on the head. hifiguy Dec 2014 #63

Of course, the now thoroughly disgraced John Edwards pointed this out seven years ago RufusTFirefly Dec 2014 #72

+a million! SammyWinstonJack Dec 2014 #116

+100000 woo me with science Dec 2014 #237

because YOU DID want ponies... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2014 #130

There you go, you always come through for me. I was going to go look for some comments sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #136

I am not the one interested in ponies....I want Progress.... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2014 #137

What's your idea of 'progress'? sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #138

The same as Bernie Sanders....who said "We must protect the progress we have made" VanillaRhapsody Dec 2014 #144

You have that saying backwards. The way you phrasd it means the tblue37 Dec 2014 #164

No I didn't and no it doesn't... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2014 #169

Maybe I misunderstand your position, then. When you said you wanted progress, not ponies, it tblue37 Dec 2014 #230

Yes that is exactly what I am saying.....because the "Perfect" or "ponies" are not likely to happen. VanillaRhapsody Dec 2014 #247

The line is from Voltaire. tblue37 Dec 2014 #249

Heh... perfect timing and delivery. WorseBeforeBetter Dec 2014 #284

You DLCers are so fucking predictable. Odin2005 Dec 2014 #212

The health pony Obama-Biden promised us during the 2008 campaign? You bet I wanted it. merrily Dec 2014 #195

How were there 60 Senate votes for Single Payer... JaneQPublic Dec 2014 #20

Indeed the PPACA passed without a single vote to spare. n/t PoliticAverse Dec 2014 #27

The final bill passed by reconciliation. merrily Dec 2014 #216

No shit, what is wrong with him, why would he say such an obviously provable wrong thing? NoJusticeNoPeace Dec 2014 #35

he's talking out of his head Cosmocat Dec 2014 #76

That's why they should have taken care of the 60 vote rule as soon as they had the chance. sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #78

But if they got rid of the 60-vote rule ... SomeGuyInEagan Dec 2014 #119

And if it happens now? VanillaRhapsody Dec 2014 #132

That's WHY Dems should have done it. You are MAKING THE POINT. Had they done it, lots of sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #176

Not only did Dems not deal with it, they didn't even make Rs actually work SomeGuyInEagan Dec 2014 #248

It's a great excuse, isn't it? I guess they actually do believe we are all stupid! sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #135

Who is WE? VanillaRhapsody Dec 2014 #170

They did. In March 2010, Obamacare passed by reconciliation because Brown got elected January 2010. merrily Dec 2014 #218

+1 with added congratulations for using "methinks" eom treestar Dec 2014 #79

... JaneQPublic Dec 2014 #111

Senator Harkin is 100% correct. Democrats did have a 60 vote majority in the Senate. Zorra Dec 2014 #158

Except for that whole ELECTIONS business... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2014 #171

exactly--Obama with his huge landslide had a sliver of time librechik Dec 2014 #238

60 except for Joe Lieberman you mean.. annabanana Dec 2014 #240

Wrong on the facts. merrily Dec 2014 #207

Yup. I was correct. Snowe never voted for Obamacare. (I just checked her wiki.) merrily Dec 2014 #217

But she DID vote to move it through the Senate Finance Committee. JaneQPublic Dec 2014 #241

Dems had a majority on that committee. If they allowed her vote to be the merrily Dec 2014 #257

Where were the votes, Senator? Arkana Dec 2014 #22

Boy, I really Delphinus Dec 2014 #23

Brilliant deduction, Holmes! n/t RoccoR5955 Dec 2014 #24

Blew it on purpose. nt ChisolmTrailDem Dec 2014 #28

^ This. nt TBF Dec 2014 #104

Yes. pa28 Dec 2014 #145

wait a minute, Phlem Dec 2014 #30

He's blind in his hindsight. nt geek tragedy Dec 2014 #31

What Congress could he have used to pass it? Orsino Dec 2014 #33

We didn't have "60 votes" for single-payer. We had 60 Senators caucusing with the party. NYC Liberal Dec 2014 #36

Right Cosmocat Dec 2014 #77

+ 1 zillion treestar Dec 2014 #85

and Bernie said single payer had about 10 votes, so which is it? dionysus Dec 2014 #38

Lieberman killed it BeyondGeography Dec 2014 #39

Hell yes it should have been single payer INdemo Dec 2014 #40

duh nt abelenkpe Dec 2014 #41

Harkin, god bless him, is being revisionist as fuck Blue_Tires Dec 2014 #42

And Blanche Lincoln BeyondGeography Dec 2014 #44

End of term hyperbole. joshcryer Dec 2014 #174

Leadership turbinetree Dec 2014 #45

Obam could have ridden the popular wave in 08 to push through his agenda librechik Dec 2014 #46

no he couldn't. Lieberman, Bayh, both Nelsons, and other blue dogs wouldn't go for it. still_one Dec 2014 #127

You need to read this entire thread. The cake was baked before Baucus ever got his merrily Dec 2014 #204

They didn't even allow it to be discussed during the congressional hearings think Dec 2014 #47

This story is bullshit...please consider this point. Stuart G Dec 2014 #52

Yeah, that is the REALITY of it Cosmocat Dec 2014 #80

Cosmocat is correct, that is the Reality of it.... Stuart G Dec 2014 #106

Spot on Cosmocat Dec 2014 #140

The Disease Management Industrail Complex has a vested interest in making sure we get sick Dont call me Shirley Dec 2014 #53

K&R DeSwiss Dec 2014 #54

I never fully understood that, unless he was trying to be glib... Blue_Tires Dec 2014 #58

+1 JimDandy Dec 2014 #83

Mencken was an extreme racist and opponent of representative democracy, an elitist. Bluenorthwest Dec 2014 #231

barring single/universal advocates isn't an oopsie, it shows what the whole thing had a chosen goal MisterP Dec 2014 #56

It is assumed.. kentuck Dec 2014 #57

What do they say about hindsight? n/t savalez Dec 2014 #60

hey Tom, you didn't blow it, you gave us exactly what the insurance companies wanted. spanone Dec 2014 #62

I don't quite agree. Xyzse Dec 2014 #66

Thank you Obama and Rahm lark Dec 2014 #68

Obama could not have and did not do this alone. He would have gone with PO had the Dems kelliekat44 Dec 2014 #81

How about Obama not being up for the fight? lark Dec 2014 #84

He could have "pushed" them? treestar Dec 2014 #86

Not fold like a wet shirt is how. lark Dec 2014 #87

I don't know if we would have gotten Single Payer, but.. mvd Dec 2014 #90

I agree lark Dec 2014 #91

"Started with single payer" treestar Dec 2014 #93

To me it's the same thing mvd Dec 2014 #98

They knew they'd never have the votes treestar Dec 2014 #99

No way mvd Dec 2014 #100

Yup Proud Liberal Dem Dec 2014 #228

1. Gotten with Reid and Lieberman and told them no committee assignments or chairmanships - treestar Dec 2014 #92

I remember it clearly. The silence from the White House was deafening. jhart3333 Dec 2014 #112

lol-- let me get this straight: Marr Dec 2014 #133

You do realize what else the newly elected President was dealing with at the time. Dems failed to kelliekat44 Dec 2014 #88

Dems and the President both folded lark Dec 2014 #89

See a subthread starting w/ my post #3 JoePhilly Dec 2014 #97

Just pretend he was Ned Lamont BeyondGeography Dec 2014 #103

That's definitely part of Lieberman's anger. JoePhilly Dec 2014 #109

It was another BIG missed "chance". SoapBox Dec 2014 #74

Obama dealt away the public option. pa28 Dec 2014 #101

A challange .... You are now President in 2009 ... JoePhilly Dec 2014 #114

LOL! You may as well put that silly, simplistic challenge away. No one is falling for it. merrily Dec 2014 #206

Silly and simple ... but you can't do it. JoePhilly Dec 2014 #225

Dude, you got nothing but embarrassing yourself. Have him call me. I'll take care of it. merrily Dec 2014 #252

Of course I can do it. Just have him call me so we can talk. merrily Dec 2014 #253

It should have been sold as a bigger priority mvd Dec 2014 #125

No Lie Senator irisblue Dec 2014 #102

No the Republican obstructionists blew it. Initech Dec 2014 #105

Of course they can ut oh Dec 2014 #107

Captain obvious has spoken. nt silvershadow Dec 2014 #122

I think he's lying that we had the votes for single-payer. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #123

Bernie Sanders: Single Payer never had a chance (March 2010) still_one Dec 2014 #126

8-10 votes? Erich Bloodaxe BSN Dec 2014 #154

schumer can go screw himself. I didn't hear him protest at the time. As for Harkin, he is not still_one Dec 2014 #128

I am sick of hearing what they should have done .. and as mentioned we will YOHABLO Dec 2014 #131

Democrats can try and shift blame all they want. There was a window of opportunity to get it done. liberal_at_heart Dec 2014 #134

The final bill passed the Senate by a 56 to 43 vote. It did not need 60 votes. eomer Dec 2014 #139

They had the votes? Every time I mentioned single payer back then NorthCarolina Dec 2014 #141

Wait for Harkin's book tour Segami Dec 2014 #153

No, you don't feel silly at all now--because you never fell for their story back then. merrily Dec 2014 #256

Do you think the Democratic Party will ever return to it's roots, NorthCarolina Dec 2014 #268

Ya think? Android3.14 Dec 2014 #142

Fine, then repeal it Man from Pickens Dec 2014 #143

Segami Diclotican Dec 2014 #146

same refrain but different day DemandsRedPill Dec 2014 #147

One word. Baucus. JDPriestly Dec 2014 #148

Two words. 'Rotating villains'. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Dec 2014 #152

Rotating villains or rotating DU memes. Take your pick. The kabuki could not have been merrily Dec 2014 #210

Baucus fell on his sword. joshcryer Dec 2014 #175

They didn't have the votes because they didn't WANT the votes. merrily Dec 2014 #209

That's the part that put the lie to the whole thing. Marr Dec 2014 #243

It had less votes under reconciliation. joshcryer Dec 2014 #246

Like any of the "minor tweaks" that were made ostensibly in the name of wooing Olympia Snowe. Marr Dec 2014 #273

Mistakes were made. joshcryer Dec 2014 #274

What you said the first time: they did pass pretty much what they wanted. merrily Dec 2014 #255

This message was self-deleted by its author Marr Dec 2014 #242

Baucus was not some rogue agent. Marr Dec 2014 #244

Of course not. Obama praised Baucus for his work on the ACA and rewarded him. merrily Dec 2014 #286

Yeah-- I can't believe anyone could actually buy such an idea. Marr Dec 2014 #287

It was necessary to at least have a national discussion on single payer. Max Baucus quashed that. Enthusiast Dec 2014 #149

Baucus was one of several (willing) scapegoats. Please see Reply 204, among others. merrily Dec 2014 #211

(bribed, paid) Enthusiast Dec 2014 #223

Meh. No worries. They'll be offended anyway. merrily Dec 2014 #254

Wow! Enthusiast Dec 2014 #258

You're welcome. It is but a fraction of what was out there at the time. merrily Dec 2014 #264

I have said it before, that Enthusiast Dec 2014 #280

It was indeed a single payer prevention act, but, oh, so much more. merrily Dec 2014 #283

1. Sign EO lowering the Medicare age to 60 Doctor_J Dec 2014 #150

And this is why Republicans win and Democrats lose eridani Dec 2014 #156

this is a waste of time. republican radio made single payer politically impossible long certainot Dec 2014 #159

DOH !!! n/t humbled_opinion Dec 2014 #160

We "blew it" consistently for all the 60+ years previously bhikkhu Dec 2014 #162

Obama NEVER wanted single payer. He works for the 1%, and they tell him what to do. blkmusclmachine Dec 2014 #163

Perhaps Harkin needs ten years in prison. Festivito Dec 2014 #165

I love Harkin, but I am happy there is babylonsister Dec 2014 #166

So he wait to say this when he's weeks from retirement davidpdx Dec 2014 #168

That's odd Mr Harkin Omnith Dec 2014 #172

When I Bitched and complained about Medicare for all imthevicar Dec 2014 #178

I think the last thing I remember Ted Kennedy saying publicly was "Don't screw it up" loyalsister Dec 2014 #180

Yeah, instead we dicked around for a year with "town halls" that allowed the tricorner hat crowd to Warren DeMontague Dec 2014 #181

+1 Staged bullshit n/t leftstreet Dec 2014 #188

The public option was dead long before the town halls. merrily Dec 2014 #200

The idea that DU knows more about the workings of the Senate than Harkin is laughable. merrily Dec 2014 #213

I'm sitting here, chuckling, thinking the exact same thing. WorseBeforeBetter Dec 2014 #285

Seems to be a case of... 99Forever Dec 2014 #222

Not.helpful (and not true) Proud Liberal Dem Dec 2014 #227

Shh. Don't remind DU activists that a public option was considered an absolute backstop Leopolds Ghost Dec 2014 #229

+1000000 liberal_at_heart Dec 2014 #232

And it worked. merrily Dec 2014 #279

Which is why I can't support Hillary Clinton Leopolds Ghost Dec 2014 #288

No argument here. I have a number of reasons not to support her. merrily Dec 2014 #289

Right on! libodem Dec 2014 #234

�We had the votes in �09. We had a huge majority in the House, we had 60 votes in the Senate," Jesus Malverde Dec 2014 #275

And, we had the Oval Office. merrily Dec 2014 #278