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JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
1. Yes, The dilemma for us is to establish strongly that we are a moral nation and that we will
Wed Dec 10, 2014, 06:37 AM
Dec 2014

not accept leadership that is clearly cruel and immoral and that subverts or ignores the principles of due process for all, not just for Americans in America, and the rule of law.

Even when we are dealing with people who do not share our values as a civil society, we have to stay true to our principles or we will disintegrate into a sham state, into a country that is governed by a secret cabal of cruel sadists.

But we also want to protect our democracy which is based on the idea that we elect our leaders and then that we, because we are responsible for their election, share in the blame for the wrongs they do. We also want, as you explain, to protect our ability to enjoy the peaceful transfer of power each time we elect a new government.

What we need is a process that provides for a sort of "trial" that is more a process of the admission of policies and conduct that have been wrong, morally, politically, ethically wrong, apologies for the wrongs and reconciliation with those who have been wronged and their families.

But the terrible acts of torture which are a betrayal of our highest most important standards, an utter betrayal of our Bill of Rights which has no meaning if it is not to be universally applied to all humans (because it outlines the innate rights of all humans which no government has the authority to transgress of violate).

Thanks for your complex analysis. I do think that Cheney/Bush/Rice and all who condoned and carried out the torture should have a day in court, perhaps not one that could culminate in prison sentences or their loss of freedom, but one that calls them personally to answer for the terrible cruelty and sadism they indulged in.

Let's don't forget that Al Qaeda and now ISIS and some other governments have also participated in horrendous acts sometimes torture of helpless prisoners. But let's stand for the ideal that the wrongs of others do not justify our own wrongs.

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Yes, The dilemma for us is to establish strongly that we are a moral nation and that we will JDPriestly Dec 2014 #1
WHAT??? F that noise! Roland99 Dec 2014 #2
If you're willing to risk it, fine with me. Savannahmann Dec 2014 #6
Oh, Obama's hands aren't clean, that's for sure Roland99 Dec 2014 #12
+1 Scuba Dec 2014 #14
OK, so how do you do that with the current "understandings"? Savannahmann Dec 2014 #17
The 'understanding' I had from Obama came from his insisting he is a devout Christian with hugely Bluenorthwest Dec 2014 #20
And in my lifetime and my kids' lifetimes, that will never happen Roland99 Dec 2014 #41
That simple malaise Dec 2014 #22
Those that hold the gold. Roland99 Dec 2014 #40
I agree with you malaise Dec 2014 #42
The gravity of the crimes they committed LuvNewcastle Dec 2014 #3
+1 Scuba Dec 2014 #15
Thank you for putting it into words, LuvNewcastle. Octafish Dec 2014 #25
''the smooth transition of power from one, to the next Ichingcarpenter Dec 2014 #29
Thank you for stating it so clearly & succinctly. CrispyQ Dec 2014 #30
Thank you. n/t Judi Lynn Dec 2014 #66
Is this hypocritical since other leaders get tried for crimes as well? mazzarro Dec 2014 #4
By your logic you would be against Nixon's impeachment too? n/t mazzarro Dec 2014 #5
Prosecution of government officials happens in accordance with laws in Western European democracies. redgreenandblue Dec 2014 #7
I disagree so vehemently that I think that refusal to prosecute should be considered co conspiracy TheKentuckian Dec 2014 #8
Sorry, I don't see the US as that "beacon of justice" anymore, and I think there should be...... dmosh42 Dec 2014 #10
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." 99Forever Dec 2014 #9
+1 Scuba Dec 2014 #13
+2 Vinca Dec 2014 #16
unrec PowerToThePeople Dec 2014 #11
We've already tried your method. Our reward was the Bush Administration JHB Dec 2014 #18
Reprehensible and absurdly ammoral thinking. You are calling for 100% impunity of action by any Bluenorthwest Dec 2014 #19
The UN wants some of the CIA and US government officials prosecuted over this. liberal_at_heart Dec 2014 #21
It's never gonna stop. When the next republican goat fucker gets in. He'll make Jr. look Guy Whitey Corngood Dec 2014 #23
Has any president finished office totally clean? FLPanhandle Dec 2014 #24
Seriously???? HERVEPA Dec 2014 #26
Bullshit. Hissyspit Dec 2014 #27
+ googolplex (n/t) derby378 Dec 2014 #37
This reminds me of all the talking heads during the 2000 contested election Hissyspit Dec 2014 #28
No tanks in the streets, just the NSA in every house, on every cell. CrispyQ Dec 2014 #31
Whats that about no tanks in the streets? Erose999 Dec 2014 #46
Duh. CrispyQ Dec 2014 #47
Armored personal carriers & armored trucks are not tanks. EX500rider Dec 2014 #60
I don't agree with you or the President (nt) bigwillq Dec 2014 #32
Maybe a little vengeance bouncing would wake up the average American who doesn't bother to vote, CrispyQ Dec 2014 #33
No. The 'original sin' here was the pardon of Nixon by Ford. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Dec 2014 #34
Like Ferguson: No consequences => Blowback tblue Dec 2014 #35
"No more" - ah, how quaint derby378 Dec 2014 #36
You are forgetting or ignoring that the U.S. is a signatory to the KingCharlemagne Dec 2014 #38
How do you propose to enforce this? Savannahmann Dec 2014 #48
Your 'this' is one hell of an unclear pronoun reference. To what exactly KingCharlemagne Dec 2014 #49
You're wasting your breath LordGlenconner Dec 2014 #62
Very shallow. earthside Dec 2014 #39
We can't hold elected officials accountable for breaking the most egregious of laws, Maedhros Dec 2014 #43
The idea of accepting the dirty tricks and unethical behavior began in Italy Savannahmann Dec 2014 #51
Yes, Clinton should have been held accountable for bombing an aspirin factory. Maedhros Dec 2014 #59
Truth and reconciliation always the best route frazzled Dec 2014 #44
The "peaceful change of power" is just for show. The real power is the MIC. These abuses continued Erose999 Dec 2014 #45
Disagree in strongest possible terms. Law isn't a tool of revenge. It is a tool of justice. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2014 #50
Ok, but here's a question Savannahmann Dec 2014 #52
Then cooperate with a UN war crime tribunal. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2014 #57
That would be the ICC Savannahmann Dec 2014 #58
This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Dec 2014 #53
Ok, so how do we prosecute? Savannahmann Dec 2014 #56
Prosecuting torturers would be like prosecuting murderous cops. stone space Dec 2014 #54
As much as I hope george war bush rots in hell, I tend to agree. Hoyt Dec 2014 #55
I think the scoundrels should have been taken to task for their misdeeds tiredtoo Dec 2014 #61
I strongly disagree rock Dec 2014 #63
I was the first 'rec' on this OP. NanceGreggs Dec 2014 #64
But has Obama actually made such a statement? ucrdem Dec 2014 #65
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