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Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
17. OK, so how do you do that with the current "understandings"?
Wed Dec 10, 2014, 09:23 AM
Dec 2014

I put Understandings in quotations for a reason. Remember, we enabled the CIA to do just this sort of thing. We never passed laws prohibiting the CIA from doing it. We passed resolutions, that were non binding. We always find exceptions to those laws. Again, it was the idea that we could do bad things for good reasons that got us into this mess.

In the 1950's, the CIA overthrew governments that looked to be going Communist. They fought a secret war in Laos in the 1960's, remember Air America? The CIA fought the Russians in Afghanistan, and helped Hungary to revolt. Bay of Pigs, all of it. Despite the failures, the abominations, we've never passed laws saying the CIA will be held accountable. We always find reasons not to hold them, or the Administration accountable.

I'm saying that before we start the accountability game, we have to let everyone know that from now on the rules will be followed, and people will be held accountable. That means we begin by passing laws. Laws that make it clear that all the exceptions and excuses will not be tolerated. We pass laws that hold our Government accountable to the same laws that we the people must follow.

That is step one. After those laws are passed, without exceptions for national security. We then enforce the law with a vengeance.

I was just listening to a book, the Cold War. It has a long chapter about this behavior, and how it got started. We quickly learned that we could not take direct action to thwart the plans of the Soviet Union. We were unwilling to stand aside and see how things played out. We, Democrats and Republicans, pushed the boundaries time and time again, until basically nothing was verboten. We pass Executive Orders prohibiting Political Assassinations. Then we sign a document saying that this assassination is excepted because it's not political. We classify the entire thing as ultra top secret and put it in a file never to be opened.

President Obama is doing those things, those bad things, for the hoped for good outcome. It is a flawed argument, the idea that the ends justify the means, but we've been following that argument for more than sixty years. People who are looking forward to retire have never known a time in which it wasn't done that way. We have to change the rules that the game has been played by. And we have to mean it.

Because right now, if we did prosecute Bush Co and the rest of the cabal. This discussion would be held in front of a jury. Now, the defense attorney would be allowed to show the chain of events that Presidents, all Presidents, from Truman on have added a link to. Eisenhower and the illegal flights of the U2 over Russia. Kennedy and the same flights over other nations, the Bay of Pigs, and undermining efforts of democratic representation in other nations. Uganda and Haiti, we would see it all out there as historical precedence for the actions of the President.

I honestly don't know how that trial would turn out. If Bush was found guilty, then the same fate would await President Obama, and the next President, and the one after that as smaller and smaller crimes were prosecuted. When one was prosecuted for failure to insure that the records keeping act was followed to the letter by storing the documents in a box that was the wrong color, we would be on the verge of a dictatorship. Because why leave power if you know you will be charged with some criminal action or another?

I want it to stop. I want it all to stop. The torture, the black sites, the spying on citizens, all of it including the things I haven't mentioned in the line above. I want it all, all to stop. But I understand how we got here, each subsequent President decided that the precedence allowed him to do a little more that would be considered unethical. Certainly Harry Truman never imagined we would end up where we are now. But who can blame him for wanting the tools to accomplish the goal of preventing the fall of several nations, including Italy, to Communism. If Italy had fallen to Communism, then it's likely that Europe as a whole would have fallen too.

That's how it begins, one little thing, a laudable goal that can't be reached by strictly legal means. From there, we move on, we've taken one step across the line for a laudable goal, why not take another for what seems to be an equally laudable goal.

We have to shove the nation back across that line, and inform them that we never cross that line again. We can't decide that twenty one steps across the line was just too much, we should have stayed at twenty steps, that would have been acceptable.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Yes, The dilemma for us is to establish strongly that we are a moral nation and that we will JDPriestly Dec 2014 #1
WHAT??? F that noise! Roland99 Dec 2014 #2
If you're willing to risk it, fine with me. Savannahmann Dec 2014 #6
Oh, Obama's hands aren't clean, that's for sure Roland99 Dec 2014 #12
+1 Scuba Dec 2014 #14
OK, so how do you do that with the current "understandings"? Savannahmann Dec 2014 #17
The 'understanding' I had from Obama came from his insisting he is a devout Christian with hugely Bluenorthwest Dec 2014 #20
And in my lifetime and my kids' lifetimes, that will never happen Roland99 Dec 2014 #41
That simple malaise Dec 2014 #22
Those that hold the gold. Roland99 Dec 2014 #40
I agree with you malaise Dec 2014 #42
The gravity of the crimes they committed LuvNewcastle Dec 2014 #3
+1 Scuba Dec 2014 #15
Thank you for putting it into words, LuvNewcastle. Octafish Dec 2014 #25
''the smooth transition of power from one, to the next Ichingcarpenter Dec 2014 #29
Thank you for stating it so clearly & succinctly. CrispyQ Dec 2014 #30
Thank you. n/t Judi Lynn Dec 2014 #66
Is this hypocritical since other leaders get tried for crimes as well? mazzarro Dec 2014 #4
By your logic you would be against Nixon's impeachment too? n/t mazzarro Dec 2014 #5
Prosecution of government officials happens in accordance with laws in Western European democracies. redgreenandblue Dec 2014 #7
I disagree so vehemently that I think that refusal to prosecute should be considered co conspiracy TheKentuckian Dec 2014 #8
Sorry, I don't see the US as that "beacon of justice" anymore, and I think there should be...... dmosh42 Dec 2014 #10
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." 99Forever Dec 2014 #9
+1 Scuba Dec 2014 #13
+2 Vinca Dec 2014 #16
unrec PowerToThePeople Dec 2014 #11
We've already tried your method. Our reward was the Bush Administration JHB Dec 2014 #18
Reprehensible and absurdly ammoral thinking. You are calling for 100% impunity of action by any Bluenorthwest Dec 2014 #19
The UN wants some of the CIA and US government officials prosecuted over this. liberal_at_heart Dec 2014 #21
It's never gonna stop. When the next republican goat fucker gets in. He'll make Jr. look Guy Whitey Corngood Dec 2014 #23
Has any president finished office totally clean? FLPanhandle Dec 2014 #24
Seriously???? HERVEPA Dec 2014 #26
Bullshit. Hissyspit Dec 2014 #27
+ googolplex (n/t) derby378 Dec 2014 #37
This reminds me of all the talking heads during the 2000 contested election Hissyspit Dec 2014 #28
No tanks in the streets, just the NSA in every house, on every cell. CrispyQ Dec 2014 #31
Whats that about no tanks in the streets? Erose999 Dec 2014 #46
Duh. CrispyQ Dec 2014 #47
Armored personal carriers & armored trucks are not tanks. EX500rider Dec 2014 #60
I don't agree with you or the President (nt) bigwillq Dec 2014 #32
Maybe a little vengeance bouncing would wake up the average American who doesn't bother to vote, CrispyQ Dec 2014 #33
No. The 'original sin' here was the pardon of Nixon by Ford. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Dec 2014 #34
Like Ferguson: No consequences => Blowback tblue Dec 2014 #35
"No more" - ah, how quaint derby378 Dec 2014 #36
You are forgetting or ignoring that the U.S. is a signatory to the KingCharlemagne Dec 2014 #38
How do you propose to enforce this? Savannahmann Dec 2014 #48
Your 'this' is one hell of an unclear pronoun reference. To what exactly KingCharlemagne Dec 2014 #49
You're wasting your breath LordGlenconner Dec 2014 #62
Very shallow. earthside Dec 2014 #39
We can't hold elected officials accountable for breaking the most egregious of laws, Maedhros Dec 2014 #43
The idea of accepting the dirty tricks and unethical behavior began in Italy Savannahmann Dec 2014 #51
Yes, Clinton should have been held accountable for bombing an aspirin factory. Maedhros Dec 2014 #59
Truth and reconciliation always the best route frazzled Dec 2014 #44
The "peaceful change of power" is just for show. The real power is the MIC. These abuses continued Erose999 Dec 2014 #45
Disagree in strongest possible terms. Law isn't a tool of revenge. It is a tool of justice. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2014 #50
Ok, but here's a question Savannahmann Dec 2014 #52
Then cooperate with a UN war crime tribunal. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2014 #57
That would be the ICC Savannahmann Dec 2014 #58
This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Dec 2014 #53
Ok, so how do we prosecute? Savannahmann Dec 2014 #56
Prosecuting torturers would be like prosecuting murderous cops. stone space Dec 2014 #54
As much as I hope george war bush rots in hell, I tend to agree. Hoyt Dec 2014 #55
I think the scoundrels should have been taken to task for their misdeeds tiredtoo Dec 2014 #61
I strongly disagree rock Dec 2014 #63
I was the first 'rec' on this OP. NanceGreggs Dec 2014 #64
But has Obama actually made such a statement? ucrdem Dec 2014 #65
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