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reorg

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86. Okay, a smattering of logical thinking might also be helpful

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 03:49 PM

Dec 2014

Look, I'm not a member of the destroying forces as some of you admittedly are, never fired a missile, never even fired a slingshot at human beings, so a bunch of posters here clearly have me at an advantage experience-wise.

I take it from the picture below that on such a plane you can fit quite a few bombs and missiles? So, when it says "Empty aircraft, kg 9.500"; "Normal take-off, kg 14.600", "Maximum take-off, kg 17.600", we can get an idea about the possible weight of such a load, something between 5 and 8 tons? And can we also agree that the weight of an air-to-air missile is relatively insignificant in comparison?

SU25 with lots of bays for bombs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-73_%28missile%29
Air-to-air missile, 102 kg

And you are seriously trying to tell me a plane that can fly - without weapons - as high as 10,000 meters cannot fly high enough - if loaded with one or two 100-kg missiles - to shoot said missiles at a plane travelling at similar height? Try again.

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Highlight:

MH17 was the, "Wrong plane," says Ukrainian fighter pilot after shootdown. [View all] another_liberal Dec 2014 OP

The free and independent Russian press is right on top of things. hack89 Dec 2014 #1

I wasn't posting this for you . . . another_liberal Dec 2014 #9

I guess we are supposed to believe you upaloopa Dec 2014 #51

We do agree on something Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #54

And hope you have a great new year upaloopa Dec 2014 #79

Thanks, you too Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #83

Thanks upaloopa Dec 2014 #84

It's all over the world press. Only the Corporate Media has stopped reporting on that sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #98

It also suggests a completely implausible explanation for the shootdown NuclearDem Dec 2014 #101

the rational view - Russia didn't ask for this & Putin has high approval in his country WillYourVoteBCounted Dec 2014 #163

And the free and independent American press is snoozing right through it. MattSh Dec 2014 #90

That's why I go to European news sites to get my news on Russia. nt hack89 Dec 2014 #93

The difference is.. RT is Putin's Propaganda Outlet and US Media is GOPropaganda. And, most of us Cha Dec 2014 #105

Yup - TBF Dec 2014 #108

4 "investigating" Countries Agreed Not to Disclose Key Details in Downing of MH17 WillYourVoteBCounted Dec 2014 #161

MH17 - 4 Countries Agreed Not to Disclose Key Details in Downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 WillYourVoteBCounted Dec 2014 #164

Here we go again. hobbit709 Dec 2014 #2

How many different explanations is this now? I lost count. Next thing we'll know Putin Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2014 #5

When the alibi changes every 5 minutes, somebody's lying. hobbit709 Dec 2014 #6

"Consciousness of guilt," I think the term is. "Muddying the waters," also comes to mind. Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2014 #7

Putin will need to wait until OJ is finished finding the real hackers for North Korea Trekologer Dec 2014 #15

The truth matters . . . another_liberal Dec 2014 #10

A source that's been discredited more than Shrub needs an open minded approach? hobbit709 Dec 2014 #19

what source has been discredited? reorg Dec 2014 #26

Post removed Post removed Dec 2014 #23

Must not confuse people with facts YA know newfie11 Dec 2014 #27

"BUK missile don't shoot machine gun fire." Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #28

I have no previous incrantion Boreal Dec 2014 #30

Duckhunter refers to his Air Defense job in the Military. GGJohn Dec 2014 #33

correct, thank you Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #35

duckhunter Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #34

Maybe you might want to think about apologizing to Duckhunter935? GGJohn Dec 2014 #39

He or she can PM me but can't reply Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #55

Didn't see that. GGJohn Dec 2014 #56

I would not either Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #60

I don't know much about BUK warheads... MattSh Dec 2014 #92

WOW NuclearDem Dec 2014 #32

not to mention calling many fellow DU members Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #36

Russians are a 'race' now? nt Erich Bloodaxe BSN Dec 2014 #81

What we need to keep an open mind about are fruit loops snooper2 Dec 2014 #46

Peeps, too. OilemFirchen Dec 2014 #69

But it was reported to an official communist party organ. Igel Dec 2014 #38

It's slang... OilemFirchen Dec 2014 #71

"I'm for the truth no matter who speaks it" WillYourVoteBCounted Dec 2014 #162

"A witness, who chose to remain anonymous, told Komsomolskaya Pravda (KP) daily" Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2014 #3

This is not about President Putin . . . another_liberal Dec 2014 #11

What's the Russian word for Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2014 #13

I imagine . . . another_liberal Dec 2014 #14

Probably the same but the Russian word for shit is "Dermo" hobbit709 Dec 2014 #18

Same "news" outlet that faked up a satellite photo of the shooting down... Archae Dec 2014 #4

I have never heard of that . . . another_liberal Dec 2014 #12

Soitenly. Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2014 #16

"Channel One News" is the source, or so it would appear . . . another_liberal Dec 2014 #21

MSNBC and Fox are not state-run. Archae Dec 2014 #75

That is debatable . . . another_liberal Dec 2014 #96

No it is not Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #150

You are incorrect. That wasn't RT. Karmadillo Dec 2014 #57

LOL. FSogol Dec 2014 #8

There are also conservative "media reports" and "studies" that show climate change is a hoax. pampango Dec 2014 #17

So? another_liberal Dec 2014 #22

My point? "That is the way the game is played..RT story is not a surprise." "Some people tell lies." pampango Dec 2014 #41

I think it is something which needs to be investigated . . . another_liberal Dec 2014 #97

Please do tell how a ground attack aircraft NuclearDem Dec 2014 #99

I'll leave all that to a team of unbiased, neutral international experts to explore . . . another_liberal Dec 2014 #102

They already did, and found it was brought down by a surface to air missile. NuclearDem Dec 2014 #104

Malaysian press charges Ukraine government shot down MH 17 Karmadillo Dec 2014 #110

This is why Robert Parry isn't a defense expert. NuclearDem Dec 2014 #111

Sez you. I'd like to see the evidence the US is hiding before Karmadillo Dec 2014 #119

I'll take the conclusion of defense experts around the workd NuclearDem Dec 2014 #121

On what are those conclusions based? The satellite evidence the US Karmadillo Dec 2014 #122

Knowledge of how surface to air and air to air missiles work, and photographs of the wreckage. NuclearDem Dec 2014 #123

And yet there are those who would disagree with you. Karmadillo Dec 2014 #125

First WSWS, now Global Research. NuclearDem Dec 2014 #131

I'd cite oligarchy media, but they tend not to print Karmadillo Dec 2014 #144

"Chances are the rebels locked onto MH-17 while trying to lock onto the Su-25 and fired." Adsos Letter Dec 2014 #145

So you admit it reorg Dec 2014 #147

facts just do not matter to you, do they Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #151

facts that matter h4364r Dec 2014 #156

... NuclearDem Dec 2014 #157

Welcome to DU gopiscrap Dec 2014 #158

Welcome to DU... zappaman Dec 2014 #160

Oh FFS... SidDithers Dec 2014 #20

Media Boreal Dec 2014 #24

Do you think the rest of the world gets their US news from here? NCTraveler Dec 2014 #25

Terrible reporting. blackspade Dec 2014 #29

So, an anonymous source that hasn't been vetted or verified NuclearDem Dec 2014 #31

"provided by an eye-witness" jberryhill Dec 2014 #37

The Earth IS flat. randome Dec 2014 #40

the "anonymous person on the internet" - that would be you reorg Dec 2014 #45

I am not advancing a supposed "eyewitness report" jberryhill Dec 2014 #47

None of what you said changes these facts: NuclearDem Dec 2014 #49

are you an eyewitness? reorg Dec 2014 #52

It's frankly irrelevant which kind of Su-25 was used NuclearDem Dec 2014 #58

amazing, posted links Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #61

But I mean, really... NuclearDem Dec 2014 #64

"I read it on the internets" Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #66

not what it says at the link reorg Dec 2014 #67

10,000 meters unloaded. NuclearDem Dec 2014 #72

Those darn facts again Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #74

so once again Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #73

so what kind of SU25 can fly loaded at 33k Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #59

How dare you introduce facts and stats to disprove a comment. GGJohn Dec 2014 #63

I am curious what the answer is Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #65

can you read? reorg Dec 2014 #70

Can you also read Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #76

Okay, a smattering of logical thinking might also be helpful reorg Dec 2014 #86

Here, read up before you keep going: NuclearDem Dec 2014 #89

Two, 100-kg missiles are enough to drop the max ceiling by quite a bit, actually NickB79 Dec 2014 #91

How much? reorg Dec 2014 #126

...or the untrained rebels accidentally locked onto MH-17 instead of the Su-25 NuclearDem Dec 2014 #130

amazing the backbending and twisting required Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #135

You can not target a missile to a cockpit Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #133

So it might have had a proximity warhead, interesting n/t reorg Dec 2014 #146

you seem to be forgetting the other dozen Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #149

That R-73 missile you say did the shootdown Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #132

He's just grasping at straws at this point. NuclearDem Dec 2014 #134

I know Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #136

Those pesky facts again. GGJohn Dec 2014 #137

A little knowledge of aircraft performance also helps Major Nikon Dec 2014 #165

Even if the Su-25 could claw it's way up to 33,000.... Adrahil Dec 2014 #141

Not according to this expert reorg Dec 2014 #148

I work in aviation... And have for 30 years. Adrahil Dec 2014 #152

and we have the closed mind? Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #154

The closest I ever came to the aviation industry reorg Dec 2014 #167

I have no sound Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #153

Still flogging this shit? Give it a rest. HERVEPA Dec 2014 #42

The performance and designed role of the SU-25 makes this story unlikely Lurks Often Dec 2014 #43

or perhaps not reorg Dec 2014 #50

Thanks for posting links Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #62

None of your links appear to disprove my comments Lurks Often Dec 2014 #80

See post 141. This story is complete fantasy. n/t Adrahil Dec 2014 #142

Sorry, but we prefer the word of the City on a Hill that will soon release Karmadillo Dec 2014 #44

I believe in the karmadillo! randome Dec 2014 #48

Actually, Russia's attempt to make the shootdown look like an attempted assassination of Putin NuclearDem Dec 2014 #53

+ $5 Billion nationalize the fed Dec 2014 #113

Are you still pushing that ridiculous meme? NuclearDem Dec 2014 #116

'Those of you who still have an open mind' Rex Dec 2014 #68

Snark, right only pointing out facts=snark Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #77

Kewl story bro! Rex Dec 2014 #115

The "haranguing" is over the complete technical implausibility of the story. NuclearDem Dec 2014 #78

or so you claim, not caring reorg Dec 2014 #87

"The source is not anonymous" NuclearDem Dec 2014 #88

He is not anonymous like some "experts" trying to tell us how the world works reorg Dec 2014 #120

Alright, if you're just going to recycle the exact same bullshit NuclearDem Dec 2014 #124

"self-defense forces in eastern Ukraine" Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #138

This message was self-deleted by its author GGJohn Dec 2014 #128

Rockets and missiles are 2 completely different weapons, GGJohn Dec 2014 #129

Yes, keep an open mind for Putin! zappaman Dec 2014 #82

"Those of you who still have an open mind" nichomachus Dec 2014 #85

In the last 6 months, you've started 111 threads in GD... SidDithers Dec 2014 #94

What's it to you? another_liberal Dec 2014 #95

Wow. zappaman Dec 2014 #143

Oh look, Putin's shill is back... Adrahil Dec 2014 #100

Doesn't have to pay anything. Archae Dec 2014 #107

The Su-25 does not have an air to air radar. Adrahil Dec 2014 #103

Everything you say may be accurate . . . another_liberal Dec 2014 #106

You can look up the Su-25's capabilities yourself. Adrahil Dec 2014 #118

"Russia�s Investigative Committee is to investigate a Russian newspaper" Sunlei Dec 2014 #109

$5 Billion Dollars buys a lot of things nationalize the fed Dec 2014 #112

...over 20 years. NuclearDem Dec 2014 #117

They forget that part Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #139

"$5 Billion Dollars buys a lot of things" EX500rider Dec 2014 #166

how long you think Putin has? arely staircase Dec 2014 #114

I think the point has been missed. PeoViejo Dec 2014 #127

Probably correct Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #140

If I remember correctly PeoViejo Dec 2014 #155

System probably had IFF Duckhunter935 Dec 2014 #159