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In reply to the discussion: Do you believe the civil disobedience methods of Gandhi and MLK would have worked against Hitler? [View all]Johnny Rico
(1,438 posts)69. "The Last Article", by Harry Turtledove.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Article
Germany's success in World War II has led to their invasion of the British Raj, and rather than struggling for independence from the Crown, Gandhi and Nehru find themselves in the position of resisting Nazi occupation using the techniques that were successfully employed against the British. Although Nehru has a general concept of the inherent immoral nature of Nazism, Gandhi thinks they still can be persuaded, not heeding the warning from a Jew named Wiesenthal, who was able to flee Poland to India.
The Nazis, however, led by Field Marshal Walther Model, are completely unmoved by Gandhi's strategy. They view themselves as a master race and have no moral qualms about killing those who resist non-violently (or even those who do not resist at all, if they are of a certain race). In the end the movement collapses as it proves unable to deal with the savagery of Nazism.
The story then takes what could be deemed an intensely bleak tone. For instance, Gandhi draws a moral equivalence between the Nazis and British imperialists, something the other elements of the narrative are critical of, are Gandhi's real-world assertions. Model points out that his loyalty is to his own people, which do not include the Indians. That loyalty is rewarded when Gandhi hears a German radio broadcast commend Model's leniency after he perpetrated the Qtub road massacre.
In large part the story concerns the weakness inherent in Gandhi's, and later Martin Luther King, Jr.'s, non-violence movement requirement upon exposing the alleged hypocrisy of the communities that oppressed them. This was a plausible strategy against British imperialism or American institutional racism, as these oppressions were seemingly hypocritical given that the United Kingdom and United States societies espoused freedom and equality for all citizens, and would have been impossible in an antebellum United States. In essence, the fiction posits that violent resistance to things like Nazism, such as the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto, is more likely to succeed than a Gandhi approach, although the Warsaw uprising, as was pointed out by Model in the story, was likewise a failure.
In a conversation, Field Marshal Model compares the alternate-world Nazi empire with ancient Rome, facing the early Christians, pointing out that their collapse came as a result of their tolerance. But, the history does not characterize Model as a bloodthirsty savage; he is a professional at conquest, and Turtledove provides the SS officer responsible for the Warsaw Ghetto massacre to provide contrast between that officer's mindless savagery and Model's purposeful violence.
Germany's success in World War II has led to their invasion of the British Raj, and rather than struggling for independence from the Crown, Gandhi and Nehru find themselves in the position of resisting Nazi occupation using the techniques that were successfully employed against the British. Although Nehru has a general concept of the inherent immoral nature of Nazism, Gandhi thinks they still can be persuaded, not heeding the warning from a Jew named Wiesenthal, who was able to flee Poland to India.
The Nazis, however, led by Field Marshal Walther Model, are completely unmoved by Gandhi's strategy. They view themselves as a master race and have no moral qualms about killing those who resist non-violently (or even those who do not resist at all, if they are of a certain race). In the end the movement collapses as it proves unable to deal with the savagery of Nazism.
The story then takes what could be deemed an intensely bleak tone. For instance, Gandhi draws a moral equivalence between the Nazis and British imperialists, something the other elements of the narrative are critical of, are Gandhi's real-world assertions. Model points out that his loyalty is to his own people, which do not include the Indians. That loyalty is rewarded when Gandhi hears a German radio broadcast commend Model's leniency after he perpetrated the Qtub road massacre.
In large part the story concerns the weakness inherent in Gandhi's, and later Martin Luther King, Jr.'s, non-violence movement requirement upon exposing the alleged hypocrisy of the communities that oppressed them. This was a plausible strategy against British imperialism or American institutional racism, as these oppressions were seemingly hypocritical given that the United Kingdom and United States societies espoused freedom and equality for all citizens, and would have been impossible in an antebellum United States. In essence, the fiction posits that violent resistance to things like Nazism, such as the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto, is more likely to succeed than a Gandhi approach, although the Warsaw uprising, as was pointed out by Model in the story, was likewise a failure.
In a conversation, Field Marshal Model compares the alternate-world Nazi empire with ancient Rome, facing the early Christians, pointing out that their collapse came as a result of their tolerance. But, the history does not characterize Model as a bloodthirsty savage; he is a professional at conquest, and Turtledove provides the SS officer responsible for the Warsaw Ghetto massacre to provide contrast between that officer's mindless savagery and Model's purposeful violence.
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Do you believe the civil disobedience methods of Gandhi and MLK would have worked against Hitler? [View all]
ZombieHorde
Apr 2012
OP
i didn't make any comparison. i said our own regime slaughters innocents & has all through its
HiPointDem
Apr 2012
#87
unless, of course, the weak are puppies and the 'powerful' are their owners. then there will be
HiPointDem
Apr 2012
#91
Oh, of course, as always puppies, kittehs, and pretty blond girls are excluded...
Egalitarian Thug
Apr 2012
#96
no because the overwhemling majority of german christians loved hitler. he was NOT like the brits in
msongs
Apr 2012
#5
No. The more brutal the regime, the more brutal are the methods required to overthrow it
Kaleva
Apr 2012
#11
Depends on how many people participated, but under certain circumstances it could work
Bjorn Against
Apr 2012
#13
Given that Gandhi said the Jews should have committed mass suicide....
Behind the Aegis
Apr 2012
#26
Yes, I read somewhere that Ghandi said that no more would have died if we had never gone to war.
jwirr
Apr 2012
#64
I believe Bashar Al Assad is a great example of being shot for demonstrating peacefully.
Selatius
Apr 2012
#27
Who do you propose would be committing CD against Hitler? The German
coalition_unwilling
Apr 2012
#28
I think sometimes people become enamored of a tactic and forget the goal, which can lead to
jtuck004
Apr 2012
#103
It's really worth watching. DVD's are in many libraries, though not available on Netflix.
mahina
Apr 2012
#32
Why are you asking a stupid question you already know the answer to?
UnrepentantLiberal
Apr 2012
#34
On a side note: I think MLK and Ghandi succeeded *because* of a credible threat of violence.
redgreenandblue
Apr 2012
#36
A leader must fear what the world thinks or that his rep will be distroyed before it can work.
jwirr
Apr 2012
#67
Is this a thinly veiled attempt to drum up support for another "peacekeeping invasion"?
redgreenandblue
Apr 2012
#37
While true in one sense, the problem with your argument is that Hitler wasnt even Hitler at first.
stevenleser
Apr 2012
#71
The closest thing to Hitler's Poland invasion during the last decades was the invasion of Iraq.
redgreenandblue
Apr 2012
#99
I am with you on this one. The negotiations left Germany with nothing to fall back on. They were
jwirr
Apr 2012
#68
Their method of dealing with dissent was to kill everyone, not just one or two
lunatica
Apr 2012
#41
Have you read Daniel Goldhagen's "Hitler's Willing Executioners"? If not,
coalition_unwilling
Apr 2012
#93
Cooperation might make things easier, but lack of cooperation wouldn't necessarily stop the crime
4th law of robotics
Apr 2012
#78
Maybe, the world didn't know during the Olympic games that Germany was toxic. Peaceful ...
uponit7771
Apr 2012
#55
Civil disobedience requires a free press and something like an adherence to the law
4th law of robotics
Apr 2012
#70
Like many others, I think it depends on a regimes fear of world opinion and their appetite for death
stevenleser
Apr 2012
#72
If I can flip that over, Would 'Dancing with the Stars' have worked against Ghandi?
KurtNYC
Apr 2012
#77
nope. hitler & gandhi's methods only work when there's a gov't that feels it needs to respond
HiPointDem
Apr 2012
#80