General Discussion

EFerrari

(163,986 posts)

74. The point of civil disobedience is not that you use it instead of an army

Mon Apr 23, 2012, 03:17 PM

Apr 2012

but that it's what the people have when there is no army at their disposal, isn't it?

Maybe it depends what you mean by "work". Oskar Schindler saved a lot of people. Dietrich Bonhoeffer's departure from his pacifist principles only got people killed, himself included.

I suppose it could be argued that the absence of civil disobedience allowed Hitler to turn Europe into a personal death cult. By the time the Allies got there, it was too late for millions of people so you could say that violence failed to work against Hitler's death factories, too.

WW2 is not an argument against civil disobedience but rather, why civil disobedience must be taught and practiced by people who would rather not be forced to hope that an army will arrive in time to save them.

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Do you believe the civil disobedience methods of Gandhi and MLK would have worked against Hitler? [View all] ZombieHorde Apr 2012 OP

No, only physical power. elleng Apr 2012 #1

Agreed Rittermeister Apr 2012 #2

No, Sir, They Would Not The Magistrate Apr 2012 #3

No. Daniel537 Apr 2012 #4

our own regime slaughters innocents & few people make peep one. HiPointDem Apr 2012 #81

Comparing our "regime" to the ones listed is cliffordu Apr 2012 #85

i didn't make any comparison. i said our own regime slaughters innocents & has all through its HiPointDem Apr 2012 #87

Exactly. We have never really cared too much about the powerful Egalitarian Thug Apr 2012 #89

unless, of course, the weak are puppies and the 'powerful' are their owners. then there will be HiPointDem Apr 2012 #91

Oh, of course, as always puppies, kittehs, and pretty blond girls are excluded... Egalitarian Thug Apr 2012 #96

no because the overwhemling majority of german christians loved hitler. he was NOT like the brits in msongs Apr 2012 #5

Are you talking about Germans themselves or the international community? RZM Apr 2012 #6

No. steve2470 Apr 2012 #7

In some respect that might have worked Joe Shlabotnik Apr 2012 #33

I think Ghandi and MLK would win chollybocker Apr 2012 #8

LOL n/t RZM Apr 2012 #19

Those in his inner circle were sadistic and ruthless. lpbk2713 Apr 2012 #9

This was a different situation. Cleita Apr 2012 #10

No. The more brutal the regime, the more brutal are the methods required to overthrow it Kaleva Apr 2012 #11

Interesting assessment RZM Apr 2012 #20

Yes, but many many people would have died. roody Apr 2012 #12

Depends on how many people participated, but under certain circumstances it could work Bjorn Against Apr 2012 #13

no JI7 Apr 2012 #14

No way, the SS would have ended them before they got started. MrSlayer Apr 2012 #15

Hitler or the people who gave him power? lunasun Apr 2012 #16

No, the protesters would have all been shot instantly. limpyhobbler Apr 2012 #17

no. marasinghe Apr 2012 #18

A few tried - White Rose Society - they were executed. leveymg Apr 2012 #21

There was a short story written Yupster Apr 2012 #22

I read that short story. lunatica Apr 2012 #42

"The Last Article", by Harry Turtledove. Johnny Rico Apr 2012 #69

I think the best approach Permanut Apr 2012 #23

Well, we know for sure civil obedience did not work. nt EFerrari Apr 2012 #24

Thank you. mahina Apr 2012 #30

No, they would not have worked Kennah Apr 2012 #25

Given that Gandhi said the Jews should have committed mass suicide.... Behind the Aegis Apr 2012 #26

Yes, I read somewhere that Ghandi said that no more would have died if we had never gone to war. jwirr Apr 2012 #64

I believe Bashar Al Assad is a great example of being shot for demonstrating peacefully. Selatius Apr 2012 #27

Who do you propose would be committing CD against Hitler? The German coalition_unwilling Apr 2012 #28

They did work against Hitler, in one case. mahina Apr 2012 #29

Not exactly accurate. The free school teachers and students, and others, jtuck004 Apr 2012 #82

I guess it depends on your definition of nonviolent resistance. mahina Apr 2012 #95

I think sometimes people become enamored of a tactic and forget the goal, which can lead to jtuck004 Apr 2012 #103

word mahina Apr 2012 #105

Albert Einstein Institution, Gene Sharp, 198 Methods of Nonviolent Resistance mahina Apr 2012 #31

It's really worth watching. DVD's are in many libraries, though not available on Netflix. mahina Apr 2012 #32

Why are you asking a stupid question you already know the answer to? UnrepentantLiberal Apr 2012 #34

Three words: The White Rose cali Apr 2012 #35

On a side note: I think MLK and Ghandi succeeded *because* of a credible threat of violence. redgreenandblue Apr 2012 #36

A leader must fear what the world thinks or that his rep will be distroyed before it can work. jwirr Apr 2012 #67

Is this a thinly veiled attempt to drum up support for another "peacekeeping invasion"? redgreenandblue Apr 2012 #37

While true in one sense, the problem with your argument is that Hitler wasnt even Hitler at first. stevenleser Apr 2012 #71

The closest thing to Hitler's Poland invasion during the last decades was the invasion of Iraq. redgreenandblue Apr 2012 #99

Since you didn't address any of my points, I won't address yours. nt stevenleser Apr 2012 #102

Do you believe that intelligent negotiations at Versailles at the end of WWI ... Jim__ Apr 2012 #38

I am with you on this one. The negotiations left Germany with nothing to fall back on. They were jwirr Apr 2012 #68

No Cirque du So-What Apr 2012 #39

It is a question of timing quaker bill Apr 2012 #40

Their method of dealing with dissent was to kill everyone, not just one or two lunatica Apr 2012 #41

Nope. Have to be a semi decent society for those tactics to work. CBGLuthier Apr 2012 #43

Yes, I do. If nobody had cooperated with Hitler closeupready Apr 2012 #44

except many people in Germany and outside of it, DID cooperate with Hitler cali Apr 2012 #45

Many Germans who cooperated did not know closeupready Apr 2012 #47

uh, so what? they all knew he was a war mongerer. they all fucking knew about the cali Apr 2012 #49

If you don't tone down your disrespect, I'm going to put you on ignore. closeupready Apr 2012 #52

LOL snooper2 Apr 2012 #63

Have you read Daniel Goldhagen's "Hitler's Willing Executioners"? If not, coalition_unwilling Apr 2012 #93

And actually, I've been to Auschwitz, and one of the closeupready Apr 2012 #46

oh please. most European Jews, by the time the death camps were in full operation cali Apr 2012 #50

Then you should write the Auschwitz museum's caretakers, closeupready Apr 2012 #51

with all due respect, what one might be told by a guide at Auschwitz cali Apr 2012 #54

I'll concede that there are likely different views. closeupready Apr 2012 #60

Cooperation might make things easier, but lack of cooperation wouldn't necessarily stop the crime 4th law of robotics Apr 2012 #78

True, but think about the numbers involved in the Holocaust. closeupready Apr 2012 #79

Negative to google degree. YellowRubberDuckie Apr 2012 #48

Or guillotined or hung with piano wire. cali Apr 2012 #56

Ghandi might agree: GeorgeGist Apr 2012 #53

Maybe, the world didn't know during the Olympic games that Germany was toxic. Peaceful ... uponit7771 Apr 2012 #55

the Nuremberg laws were passed in 1935. cali Apr 2012 #57

Hitler Was Regarded As The Champion Of Anti-Communism, Sir The Magistrate Apr 2012 #58

Who are you suggesting would have committed civil disobedience? Recursion Apr 2012 #59

Obviously, we'll never know, but boxman15 Apr 2012 #61

It depends on timing. sudopod Apr 2012 #62

excellent observation. cali Apr 2012 #66

I wonder if you are right about the 20s. ZombieHorde Apr 2012 #73

I'm afraid you're right n/t Yo_Mama Apr 2012 #65

Civil disobedience requires a free press and something like an adherence to the law 4th law of robotics Apr 2012 #70

Like many others, I think it depends on a regimes fear of world opinion and their appetite for death stevenleser Apr 2012 #72

The point of civil disobedience is not that you use it instead of an army EFerrari Apr 2012 #74

Your last sentence is exactly right. closeupready Apr 2012 #75

What civil disobedience and when? struggle4progress Apr 2012 #76

If I can flip that over, Would 'Dancing with the Stars' have worked against Ghandi? KurtNYC Apr 2012 #77

nope. hitler & gandhi's methods only work when there's a gov't that feels it needs to respond HiPointDem Apr 2012 #80

Nonviolent resistance only works when Freddie Stubbs Apr 2012 #83

I don't know, it seemed to work well enough in the final days of the old Soviet Union. LAGC Apr 2012 #106

perhaps early yes dembotoz Apr 2012 #84

No, only military disobedience. tabasco Apr 2012 #86

this comes to mind.... spanone Apr 2012 #88

It didn't. Egalitarian Thug Apr 2012 #90

Nope datasuspect Apr 2012 #92

There's an alternate history story that follows this Old Troop Apr 2012 #94

"The Last Article", by Harry Turtledove. Johnny Rico Apr 2012 #104

no arely staircase Apr 2012 #97

Non-violence/civil disobedience undergroundpanther Apr 2012 #98

What he said. lonestarnot Apr 2012 #100

Nope bermudat Apr 2012 #101

Hard to tell. Most of the population were "good Germans" when the opportunity first appeared. mmonk Apr 2012 #107