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Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
94. You emphasize public review but you're OK with fast track, which drastically curtails that review.
Sun Dec 28, 2014, 01:56 PM
Dec 2014

Unlike some progressives, I'm not upset about the no-amendments aspect of fast track. A multilateral agreement has to be negotiated once, then approved or rejected by each country (unless rejections lead to a multilateral renegotiation). If the U.S. (through Congressional action) could amend the deal, then each other country could do so as well, and each amendment anywhere would nullify all prior approvals.

The real drawback of fast track is the "fast" part. It's not realistic to say that any problems in the final deal can be brought out in the public discussion when that discussion would be so constricted. Let's suppose that Obama gets the fast-track authority that he's asked for. The actual deal (which you insist we wait for) is then finally made public for the first time and Obama asks for its approval. Here's the process:


If the President transmits a fast track trade agreement to Congress, then the majority leaders of the House and Senate or their designees must introduce the implementing bill submitted by the President on the first day on which their House is in session. (19 U.S.C. § 2191(c)(1).) Senators and Representatives may not amend the President’s bill, either in committee or in the Senate or House. (19 U.S.C. § 2191(d).) The committees to which the bill has been referred have 45 days after its introduction to report the bill, or be automatically discharged, and each House must vote within 15 days after the bill is reported or discharged. (19 U.S.C. § 2191(e)(1).)

In the likely case that the bill is a revenue bill (as tariffs are revenues), the bill must originate in the House (see U.S. Const., art I, sec. 7), and after the Senate received the House-passed bill, the Finance Committee would have another 15 days to report the bill or be discharged, and then the Senate would have another 15 days to pass the bill. (19 U.S.C. § 2191(e)(2).) On the House and Senate floors, each Body can debate the bill for no more than 20 hours, and thus Senators cannot filibuster the bill and it will pass with a simple majority vote. (19 U.S.C. § 2191(f)-(g).) Thus the entire Congressional consideration could take no longer than 90 days.


(Source: the "Procedure" section of the Wikipedia article on Fast track)

One thing we do already know for sure is that this will be a huge and complicated proposal, with ramifications in many areas. Understanding those ramifications could not be achieved within the deadlines of fast track. (At least, it couldn't be achieved by Congress, by NGOs, or by the public. Big-business interests have been involved in the negotiations and already know what's in it, while we've been shut out, as Senator Ron Wyden has pointed out.)

I've never seen any cogent argument for why fast track is necessary -- other than the obvious one that, if there's a full and fair opportunity for Congress and the public to analyze the proposal, there's a greater chance it will be rejected. I hope you agree with me that that, at least, is an illegitimate argument.

Yes, I've been a union member, but a collective bargaining agreement isn't comparable. I've never seen one that was anywhere near as long as the TPP. Furthermore, a CBA is generally just a markup of the previous deal. The union members have to evaluate a few changes, and those few relate to a subject they know personally.

You express confidence in Krugman. He also hasn't seen the final agreement. (Why are all objections waved away as based merely on leaked proposals, but any comment in support is given full credence?) More important is that he's an economist. His analysis is of the economic impact but there are many other considerations. As a lawyer (am I right that you're one, too?), I know more about law than Krugman does. Other TPP critics also know more their areas of expertise than Krugman does -- such as the AFL-CIO on labor issues, the Electronic Frontier Foundation on internet freedom, and the Sierra Club on the environment. I think Krugman's argument was that trade agreements don't have a big macroeconomic impact (unemployment rate, trade deficit, etc.). That may be true but macroeconomics isn't everything. Suppose a state or local government bans fracking but then can't enforce that ban against a foreign corporation. Maybe the fracking employment just replaces conventional oil-drilling employment elsewhere. OK, so the macroeconomic impact is negligible, but there are now some people who can set their drinking water on fire. A few of us crackpot leaflover environmentalists think that's a big concern.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Well, after all, those are the people he has most in common with. djean111 Dec 2014 #1
Please tell me why? Obama folks here who upaloopa Dec 2014 #2
Obama LIED in 2008. And Obama LIED again in 2012. blkmusclmachine Dec 2014 #8
Yep. nt RiverLover Dec 2014 #17
How is it against what he promised? True Blue Door Dec 2014 #12
It hurts working class Americans upaloopa Dec 2014 #32
How does it hurt working class Americans? True Blue Door Dec 2014 #41
Read this thread and google TPP upaloopa Dec 2014 #60
You will never get an answer. treestar Dec 2014 #69
If you have a min wage and a Chinese company can go to their in house negotiator court and win damages Vincardog Dec 2014 #86
Moves jobs overseas - TBF Dec 2014 #92
Why would you oppose a trade deal ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #30
How do you know what is in it? Even Congress cannot see this 'global deal' which is an outrage. The sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #36
Have you asked that question of the ant-TPP folks? 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #47
What we've learned (no scare quotes) is OBAMA's discreditable negotiating position Jim Lane Dec 2014 #79
You mean the end of the process (with F/T) where congress 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #88
You emphasize public review but you're OK with fast track, which drastically curtails that review. Jim Lane Dec 2014 #94
I disagree ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #97
It COULD be a lot less than that, if I read the excerpt correctly. Buns_of_Fire Dec 2014 #98
15 days is more than enough time to review 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #99
Considering that they don't seem to be doing much else, you're probably right. Buns_of_Fire Dec 2014 #100
That's totally unrealistic Jim Lane Dec 2014 #110
Okay. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #111
What debate can be had in the 88 seconds per senator time limit allowed? Vincardog Dec 2014 #103
Okay ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #105
FAST TRACK Authority does not allow any committees. Quit Blowing smoke. Vincardog Dec 2014 #107
The agreement would go through committee but with restrictions. Jim Lane Dec 2014 #115
Why then should we grant it Fast Track and disallow any debate about it? Vincardog Dec 2014 #87
Are you or have you ever been in a union ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #89
Union membership holds a vote to accept or decline a contrat. Without that vote there is no contract Bluenorthwest Dec 2014 #95
And Congress votes to accept or decline the trade agreement ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #96
If as you state "The time to debate/comment on the agreement is the time between when the trade Vincardog Dec 2014 #102
Paid to be obtuse? ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #104
Then answer at least one of the factual objections raised. Vincardog Dec 2014 #106
This is why MFrohike Dec 2014 #62
Please name a modern trade deal that has benefitted American workers BrotherIvan Dec 2014 #64
There hasn't been a modern trade deal that has benefitted American workers ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #67
Alright then, I will no longer waste my time BrotherIvan Dec 2014 #75
??? ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #80
It is a fact labor is cheaper in those countries treestar Dec 2014 #71
Apparently you don't know how trade agreements work and who they benefit BrotherIvan Dec 2014 #77
I think there is just a knee jerk thing against "trade agreements" treestar Dec 2014 #84
I'm wishing him a major fail on the TPP. This is a horrible bit of legislation, IMHO. n/t CaliforniaPeggy Dec 2014 #3
Sad, isn't it? So much good will built up, particularly over the past month or so. arcane1 Dec 2014 #9
Same here Populist_Prole Dec 2014 #58
I can't wait to come on to DU and read about how this is supposed to be a good thing. arcane1 Dec 2014 #4
I bet you won't have to wait long. The third way has been summoned! benz380 Dec 2014 #11
Like how every superb liberal thing he does is instantly forgotten or denigrated? True Blue Door Dec 2014 #13
You don't have to wait, I just responded to such a post above. The Third Way is ready for anyone sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #38
You've just admitted you do not want to hear both sides of an argument treestar Dec 2014 #65
How does "can't wait to read" translate into "not want to hear"? arcane1 Dec 2014 #70
Intellectualism is not defined by giving the same old bullshit credence each time it is uttered. TheKentuckian Dec 2014 #108
Same can be said regarding any disagreement treestar Dec 2014 #112
Question about "snide remarks" Jim Lane Dec 2014 #113
I hate this! cilla4progress Dec 2014 #5
Fuck.. WillyT Dec 2014 #6
Obama is an '80s Republican. He's said so himself on more than one occassion. blkmusclmachine Dec 2014 #7
Tough One For The Obama Bots To Defend colsohlibgal Dec 2014 #10
"Obama Bots"...isn't that a teabagger term? True Blue Door Dec 2014 #14
Let the teabaggers use whatever terminology they want. The point is that Obama is trying totodeinhere Dec 2014 #23
I thought the complaint du jour was that TPP was being negotiated secretively. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #25
I would like to know also. nt babylonsister Dec 2014 #26
We progressives have multiple complaints, which aren't inconsistent Jim Lane Dec 2014 #34
Okay. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #37
Why progressives continue to complain about the TPP Jim Lane Dec 2014 #44
Yes, of course that is a complaint. Are you suggesting that our elected officials in Congress have sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #39
I would like Congress to play more of a role in negotiations True Blue Door Dec 2014 #40
I guess you have't been following this over the past few years. Congress would like, in fact they sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #42
If they've been denied access, they can refuse to pass the results. True Blue Door Dec 2014 #43
Trade deals are NOT treaties aspirant Dec 2014 #45
'Hysteria, paranoia'! That says it all. You clearly refuse to accept the FACTS which you are sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #56
Negotiated in secret ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #48
Plus they are having it both ways treestar Dec 2014 #73
I know ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #78
No one's ever tried to argue for the treaty. treestar Dec 2014 #68
I'd love to hear the argument for fast track. Jim Lane Dec 2014 #114
Here we go again aspirant Dec 2014 #15
Blast from the Past -- Obama 2008 RiverLover Dec 2014 #16
Exposure aspirant Dec 2014 #18
"I said any trade agreement I would support had to contain real, enforceable standards for workers." pampango Dec 2014 #29
I do not find you creditable because you post things from Tea Party speakers markme88 Dec 2014 #90
Thats the guy I voted for DJ13 Dec 2014 #33
Me, too. Octafish Dec 2014 #55
Looks like Obama and his GOP partners are going to succeed in getting fast track. How nice for them. pa28 Dec 2014 #19
Then we have to listen to right wingers blaming the Democratic party for the next 30 yrs. B Calm Dec 2014 #116
Yay! Bipartisanship we can believe in! neverforget Dec 2014 #20
From the link Boreal Dec 2014 #21
You've got to love the rhetoric about worker protections. pa28 Dec 2014 #22
"all fixed" Boreal Dec 2014 #31
Ive been reading about this extensively Ramses Dec 2014 #24
"Empower corporate entities while stripping the people" PumpkinAle Dec 2014 #27
"Democrats keep losing because we don't defend government actions enough!" (or something like that) MisterP Dec 2014 #28
"Enlist GOP" AgingAmerican Dec 2014 #35
This could mean a pay cut for 90% of US workers, of course Democrats don't want it. RiverLover Dec 2014 #46
Just another example of having to play defense against a Democratic president. Broward Dec 2014 #49
600 corps have seen the TPP in full, along with some unions. Here's what the unions think~ RiverLover Dec 2014 #50
Anyone feeling betrayed yet? 99Forever Dec 2014 #51
I like Obama, but when he backs republicans and their free trade B Calm Dec 2014 #93
Obama stabbing us in the back, again. Odin2005 Dec 2014 #52
Never forget - HILLARY helped write this, HILLARY is shilling this. n/t djean111 Dec 2014 #53
K&R It is the desire of Wall St supporters and investors, it will happen. nt raouldukelives Dec 2014 #54
Contact your Senator and tell him to vote no! yortsed snacilbuper Dec 2014 #57
As long as we get those 2 dollar a day salaries. It will be cause to celebrate more American Katashi_itto Dec 2014 #59
The Audacity of Collaborating with the Republicans. Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2014 #61
Answering the question, "Why did the Democrats tank the midterms twice?" BrotherIvan Dec 2014 #63
Well, that might tank it. Cerridwen Dec 2014 #66
Money trumps politics n2doc Dec 2014 #74
Yeah, I know. Wishful thinking. I engage it in sometimes. n/t Cerridwen Dec 2014 #76
Holy Crap%*!@ Just read full article linked...This started out as a George W Bush deal. RiverLover Dec 2014 #72
as I suspected,the BOG is now pimping this atrocity Doctor_J Dec 2014 #81
this is not news. we knew Pres Obama was riversedge Dec 2014 #82
Right, but that isn't what this story is about. Its about his own party being ag it and needing GOP RiverLover Dec 2014 #83
"Obama Ran Twice on Anti-NAFTA Free Trade; He was Lying to Us. Big TPP Push" RiverLover Dec 2014 #85
Just like NAFTA, republicans will pass it then sit on their hemorrhoid asses and point B Calm Dec 2014 #91
The key is to get it done long enough before the election Turbineguy Dec 2014 #101
He'd better use a really long spoon rock Dec 2014 #109
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