Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

onenote

(46,135 posts)
53. Not saying almost anything you say I'm saying
Fri Jan 2, 2015, 06:18 PM
Jan 2015

First, this isn't about threats. Its about booing and heckling and turning one's back on someone. Not threats.If someone theatens someone with violence, that's not commenting on a matter of public concerns and its not protected. But blaming your boss for murder (figuratively, not literally) isn't a threat and its protected speech.

Let's pause a moment on that concept, which you and others seem not to grasp: the First Amendment protects against "state" (i.e., governmental) action directed against a speaker to censor or punish speech.

It doesn't protect against private action. That's why the courts have been clear -- and I've been clear -- that public employees ARE treated differently than everyone else in the sense that a private employee can be censored or punished for his or her speech by his or her private employer. The state can't punish that private employee, however. Which is why the state, when it is an employer, can't punish or censor its employees: Otherwise, someone who works for the government would be required to subject themselves to state-mandated censorship that no private person can be subjected to.

So are subject to different treatment than "everyone else"? If by everyone else you mean people not employed by the state, the answer is yes. If you mean other people empoyed by the state, such as teachers, and agency staff, etc.: no, they're not treated differently. THey're treated the same, meaning that just as the court has protected school employees from state-imposed punishment when they criticized the elected members of the school board, so too the courts will protect the police when they criticize the elected mayor.

No deBlasio isn't responsible fpr the bloodshed that occurred as result of a lunatic with a gun. But if someone wants to be of the opinion that he was, that opinion is protected speech. The Supreme Court has held that even when a public employee levels a factually inaccurate criticism against a public official, the employee's speech is protected unless it meets the almost unattainable bar of being knowlingly false. And since the statements about deBlasio aren't literal, but hyperbolic and figurative, they can't be shown to be knowingly false - like many criticisms, they are a mixture of fact and opinion.

What concerns me the most is that the authors and proponents of First Amendment protection for public employees are the progressive justices on the court. Justice Marshall wrote the majority opinion in the leading case. Justice Douglas concurred, indicating he would have provided even greater protection than the majority. In 2006, the Court issued a heavily criticized 5-4 decision that took a unexpectedly narrow view of the scope of protections afforded a public employee. The majority: Roberts, Scalia, Alito, Thomas and Kennedy. The dissenters: Ginsburg, Stevens Souter and Breyer.

Just last term, however, the court seemed to back away somewhat from its 2006 decision and reaffirmed the importance of protecting the free speech rights of public employees.

Maybe that's not the Constitution you want. Maybe you think that if the government can punish those who work for it for expressing themselves critically regarding elected officials, that it will only use that power against those with whom you disagree. I, on the other hand, am much more certain that if the government can silence its employees, it will come back to bite us in the ass.

This isn't that hard. The case law is out there to be read.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

He needs to start firing cops AgingAmerican Dec 2014 #1
The police don't work for the mayor. And the first amendment protects speech. onenote Dec 2014 #4
How rogue must they go AgingAmerican Dec 2014 #5
If you don't thinking booing is speech, what do you think speech is? onenote Dec 2014 #7
Is murdering black guys AgingAmerican Dec 2014 #8
Murdering anyone isn't protected expression onenote Dec 2014 #9
The mayor should fire the commissioner AgingAmerican Dec 2014 #10
Is not doing your job AgingAmerican Dec 2014 #11
Is the DU jury system AgingAmerican Dec 2014 #12
You really need to learn about the First Amendment onenote Dec 2014 #13
The first amendment doesn't apply to the workplace AgingAmerican Dec 2014 #14
If you went to law school, you need to ask for your money back. onenote Jan 2015 #15
If I did these things at work I would be fired AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #16
if you booed the mayor or turned your back on him at an event you attended as a public employee onenote Jan 2015 #17
If we heckled and booed a graduation speaker at work AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #28
maybe yes, maybe no onenote Jan 2015 #30
We would be fired AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #32
You want to impose your lousy working conditions on eveyone else? former9thward Jan 2015 #34
I love my job AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #36
You call booing and turning your back being an asshole onenote Jan 2015 #37
Your FIRED! AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #40
Cool. I win the lawsuit onenote Jan 2015 #42
Most civil service positions have a "code of conduct" requirement. NutmegYankee Jan 2015 #19
Unenforceable if the conduct in question is protected expressive speech onenote Jan 2015 #20
NOPE. NutmegYankee Jan 2015 #22
Show me an example. I guarantee it's unenforceable if applied to booing/turning one's back onenote Jan 2015 #23
Teachers have been fired for making porn films MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #44
Because making a porn film isn't commenting on a matter of public concern onenote Jan 2015 #45
Pretending to comment on a matter of public concern MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #48
and what would that be? onenote Jan 2015 #49
This is exactly right AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #29
It very much depends on the the nature and extend of the speech and circumstances. branford Jan 2015 #38
+1 onenote Jan 2015 #46
The people overwhelmingly elected de Blasio based on his policies, which included POLICE REFORM. sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #24
Getting elected by one vote a 10 million votes doesn't immunize one from criticism or disrespect onenote Jan 2015 #27
When anyone threatens a public official, they not only can be fired, they should be fired. sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #52
Not saying almost anything you say I'm saying onenote Jan 2015 #53
Staten Island is NYC. former9thward Jan 2015 #35
A great many liberals in NYC just like to pretend Staten Island is not part of NYC, branford Jan 2015 #39
Who does the Police Commissioner report to? nt MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #43
The police commissioner reports to the mayor. branford Jan 2015 #47
Time for a Scott Walker law in NYC, that will only apply to the police "unions" bluestateguy Dec 2014 #2
NYPD Chief Bratton needs to start kicking some NYPD ass or KingCharlemagne Dec 2014 #3
Pink Slips 1step Dec 2014 #6
I'd bet this is more about De Blasio and his wife... HipChick Jan 2015 #18
The New York Pigs' scab union needs to be busted. backscatter712 Jan 2015 #21
"Who do you complain to when it's the police THEMSELVES who are the problem?" 1step Jan 2015 #25
keep it up, assholes.. frylock Jan 2015 #26
Time to step down. chickenfairy Jan 2015 #31
hopefully someone other than myself is willing to risk a hide and will tell you where to go... KittyWampus Jan 2015 #33
Ahehe, hehe MrScorpio Jan 2015 #41
I think you meant NYC Cops and righties rbrnmw Jan 2015 #50
Who do you think did a better job? Rhiannon12866 Jan 2015 #54
This was earlier in the week Depaysement Jan 2015 #51
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»NYPD Disrespect Continues...»Reply #53