General Discussion

Shemp Howard

(889 posts)

109. Absolutely right, Scoot!

Sat Jan 3, 2015, 11:00 AM

Jan 2015

It doesn't really matter what lofty goals free-trade proponents might have. All that really matters is what the results are. And that can be seen from the examination of prior free-trade agreements.

Consider the agreements in place in Europe now. All of those nations have a large middle class, with strong union protection. And all of those nations have governments that are responsive to worker abuse and environmental abuse. Free trade can work in cases like these.

Now consider NAFTA. One side has a middle class that expects a living wage, say $15 an hour plus. The other side will work for much, much less. The other side also has governments that will turn a blind eye to employer abuses. Even a dunce can predict which way the manufacturing jobs will flow.

So now I ask, is the TPP situation more like the Europe or more like NAFTA?

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Enough! Can we stop the divisive anti-TPP @#$%-stirring? [View all] MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 OP

And remember, this is 'Murika! You too can be part of that 0.1% someday. NutmegYankee Jan 2015 #1

+1000 !!!! orpupilofnature57 Jan 2015 #205

Have you noticed that ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #2

+1 Egnever Jan 2015 #9

The President is trying to keep the negotiations secret but there have been leaks. rhett o rick Jan 2015 #10

Have you noticed that... AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #16

Have you noticed the element of hysteria in their discourse lately? NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #25

I dare say "Hysteria Blvd" is a 2-way street. pampango Jan 2015 #84

That article is becoming a bit threadbare no? Union Scribe Jan 2015 #93

I'm comfortable with Krugman as a "human shield". pampango Jan 2015 #95

Krugman is "controlled opposition" Cosmic Kitten Jan 2015 #113

And Manny is going the wrong way down the boulevard! Major Hogwash Jan 2015 #180

Wrong-Way Manny! MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #194

Then REVEAL everything that is in it. If the opposition to it is 'wildly overblown', that sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #186

I wish all international negotiations were public - as Woodrow Wilson famously proposed. pampango Jan 2015 #198

Really? JDPriestly Jan 2015 #234

Thank you for your very imformed post, JD. I don't think there is much doubt sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #246

What exactly is "this atrocity" ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #30

Checkmate, liberals! beerandjesus Jan 2015 #39

I find it rather difficult ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #49

Then why are you chiming in on this thread? beerandjesus Jan 2015 #51

Well, if you know "plenty" about it ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #55

That's a cute gambit, pretending that I'm the one claiming some occult wisdom on the subject. beerandjesus Jan 2015 #57

It would seem obvious ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #65

Not playing any more beerandjesus Jan 2015 #66

I'm not on any "side". NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #69

You are most DEFINITELY on a side. stillwaiting Jan 2015 #85

Yes you are on a "side". 840high Jan 2015 #157

Here are three provisions Dem congressional members have exposed Oilwellian Jan 2015 #131

"Exposed". Do we know what that word *really* means? MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #139

Manny, please, I did not need that kind of exposure Oilwellian Jan 2015 #146

Crickets from the peanut gallery AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #160

I have responded to your inquiries at least twice as has another DUer upthread. LEAKS! sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #190

Given that nothing is finalized ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #269

SOP for the poster you replied to. grasswire Jan 2015 #230

By the way, you didn't answer my question. beerandjesus Jan 2015 #63

That's just the point. NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #67

"About the provisions of a treaty that have yet to be disclosed" AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #162

That's because THERE ARE NO ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #177

And there is no denial either AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #178

A river in Egypt called "ODS! ODS! RAND PAUL! RAND PAUL!" beerandjesus Jan 2015 #238

lol AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #239

Nobody knows, because it is secret treestar Jan 2015 #120

The fact they have to keep it secret AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #184

Even so, it will come out someday treestar Jan 2015 #204

Really ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #176

i find it difficult to understand how you know Ramses Jan 2015 #54

Oh, I know about the agreement itself. NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #74

You know it's a "Free Trade agreement," right? Scootaloo Jan 2015 #78

Even its opponents acknowledge it has little to do with "free trade" as tariffs are already low pampango Jan 2015 #87

Absolutely right, Scoot! Shemp Howard Jan 2015 #109

"free Trade" only means Free Capital.. Labor can go leap. . . .n/t annabanana Jan 2015 #129

Good point. Europe has solved that problem. Conservatives here rail against "open borders" liberals pampango Jan 2015 #136

The very fact that a trade "deal" is being kept secret from the public is whathehell Jan 2015 #100

Please check Thespian2 Jan 2015 #102

I think most of these anti-TPP posters treestar Jan 2015 #121

It was not good in the 90s JonLP24 Jan 2015 #248

Is that the only indicator? treestar Jan 2015 #249

They employed the most people JonLP24 Jan 2015 #251

then wouldn't the trade agreement treestar Jan 2015 #252

I'm not understanding what you're saying JonLP24 Jan 2015 #255

I guess the AFL-CIO is another "know-nothing" people too .... bread_and_roses Jan 2015 #128

Surely you know that our Representatives in Congress have been denied access to sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #188

You are not a serious person tkmorris Jan 2015 #42

No, I don't know the answers to those questions. NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #48

Look, the poster pulls the same clown act on every issue... grasswire Jan 2015 #231

The atrocity = the trade agreement AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #47

Oh, I am well aware ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #56

Why tie yourself in knots in denial? AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #60

Exactly what am I "denying"? NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #72

That the TTP sucks AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #75

How can I know that the TPP sucks ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #76

By reading the parts that have been made public AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #77

Exactly. Owl Jan 2015 #127

Obama will be fighting republicans on TPP more than he will Democrats. pampango Jan 2015 #92

In other words, there is a huge opportunity here to pull Republican voters over to the Democrats. w4rma Jan 2015 #155

True. Of course republicans look at this as a huge opportunity to pull Democratic voters over to pampango Jan 2015 #167

We have to BE right, in order to convince people we ARE right. And if Dems support this sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #192

That would imply that the republican majority is right in their opposition, while pampango Jan 2015 #206

Don't worry, if Corporations want this, there will be enough 'renegade' Republicans to help sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #211

So a majority of Democrats will support Obama on this? AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #156

Can't say they will, but they support him now. pampango Jan 2015 #161

A majority of Democrats support internationalization of financial deregulation? AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #163

I would hope they support the internationalization of financial regulation. pampango Jan 2015 #169

Deregulation, not regulation AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #170

Some information about "pampango" brentspeak Jan 2015 #235

Yes, because Republicans would want it to be as the market alone determined treestar Jan 2015 #253

There have been leaks out the wazoo, that is how we know. nt Mojorabbit Jan 2015 #52

Oh, "leaks". NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #59

Wikileaks AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #62

Well, you can't argue with a source like Wikileaks ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #70

Ah, so it's just a trick! AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #71

What's a trick? NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #73

Oh and Wikileaks AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #154

Hahahahaha!!!!!!!!!! Major Hogwash Jan 2015 #182

This post Capt. Obvious Jan 2015 #242

Wikileaks...Wikipedia...they're pretty much the same thing, right? QC Jan 2015 #279

She has nothing to Wikigize for Capt. Obvious Jan 2015 #280

Leaks, documents are far more than 'some people are saying'. But hey, if you sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #215

Have there been any leaks concerning the chapters on labor rights and environmental standards or pampango Jan 2015 #94

Damn, I really thought better of you than this. Katashi_itto Jan 2015 #81

Great on social issues. Not such a strong supporter on economic issues. It's a trend. nt stillwaiting Jan 2015 #86

Exactly! Like having social justice will make a difference when the country is impoverished beyond Katashi_itto Jan 2015 #88

It's called the 'Third Way�' AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #164

Liberal on social issues, rightist on economics. Libertarian, in other words. QC Jan 2015 #165

Why vote Republican, when you can vote 3rd way? Katashi_itto Jan 2015 #277

All of the greed, none of the guilt. QC Jan 2015 #278

"Disillusioning"? Puglover Jan 2015 #105

Well I was trying to be polite Katashi_itto Jan 2015 #116

Quiet, you! QC Jan 2015 #158

LOL! Puglover Jan 2015 #171

heh heh heh Capt. Obvious Jan 2015 #243

Sorry if you are disillusioned. NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #271

You can find info about it here: freedom fighter jh Jan 2015 #196

More, from Alan Grayson, who has seen it. freedom fighter jh Jan 2015 #207

LOL ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #175

IDK if the TPP can ever pass the smell test, but I tell you what we should do... randys1 Jan 2015 #227

Have you noticed that Sen Sanders and the progressive DEmocrats are against the TPP. rhett o rick Jan 2015 #22

Have YOU ever noticed ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #46

Yes, other democrats are very often non-progressive Scootaloo Jan 2015 #80

Sadly she doesn't have an argument against or for the TPP. Her attitude is "wait and see". rhett o rick Jan 2015 #225

Very nicely said, NG! yallerdawg Jan 2015 #183

I appreciate your polite response (except for the "and not with people who are too fuckin' stupid rhett o rick Jan 2015 #217

I have to use more than one post to cover all your rants. rhett o rick Jan 2015 #228

Obama abandoned his base on this one AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #64

Post removed Post removed Jan 2015 #83

Yes indeed...It's the tried and true formula that was used during the "cat food commission" outrage great white snark Jan 2015 #27

I HAVE noticed that some people will defend ANY POS policy ... 99Forever Jan 2015 #117

^^ grasswire Jan 2015 #232

+1, as usual ... n/t 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #172

We do not know 'every detail. But we have had LEAKS thanks to Wikileaks again. sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #185

+1000nt Andy823 Jan 2015 #203

Prediction: NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #272

I don't claim to know the details of the negotiations or the deal. JDPriestly Jan 2015 #221

Herein lies the problem ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #270

I'm quite knowledgeable about the NAFTA court. I expect the TPP will have a similar court. JDPriestly Jan 2015 #273

"I'm quite knowledgeable about the NAFTA court." NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #274

No provisions have been agreed upon. Then why is Obama talking about fast track. JDPriestly Jan 2015 #275

I admire your passion ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #276

Because iti s being negotiated by a bunch of international corporations JDPriestly Jan 2015 #281

You might find this exchange on the TPP illuminating..... msanthrope Jan 2015 #254

I guess that's why UPS felt it had the right to sue Canada's Post ofc for hurting its profits RiverLover Jan 2015 #3

LOOK AT ME JI7 Jan 2015 #4

Yep. bravenak Jan 2015 #5

Ok, I'm looking at you, and I see you missing the point entirely. Was that what you wanted? nt Electric Monk Jan 2015 #8

Yes look at you. You who thinks that anyone dubious of the TPP are so only because they hate Obama. rhett o rick Jan 2015 #12

there is no division in the democratic party JI7 Jan 2015 #15

Really? You must be in denial. Do you think that H. Clinton and Sen Sanders are on the same rhett o rick Jan 2015 #18

what has that got to do with whether there is a division in the party JI7 Jan 2015 #20

These differences are huge. One side hates whistle-blowers, journalists and OWS. rhett o rick Jan 2015 #26

where is the evidence for this division ? as i said, people have always had differences JI7 Jan 2015 #29

This is no "difference of opinions", this is a difference in ideology. One side favors the 99% rhett o rick Jan 2015 #36

elizabeth warren doesn't seem to have different views from hillary on wars, defense spending JI7 Jan 2015 #41

Warren voted against arming "Syrian rebels" to fight ISIS MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #89

that isn't a sign of any huge divide JI7 Jan 2015 #123

+ ellenrr Jan 2015 #82

"no division" aspirant Jan 2015 #35

Spot on. Phlem Jan 2015 #150

LOL Oilwellian Jan 2015 #264

Right you are, Dr. Pangloss MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #19

Gor blimey! BubbaFett Jan 2015 #28

It's called the 'Third Way�' AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #68

Democrats are divided against the Democratic President RiverLover Jan 2015 #99

"there is no big ideological division" bwahahaha Cosmic Kitten Jan 2015 #106

LMFAO ...ok L0oniX Jan 2015 #168

Not in front of the Klingons, eh? sibelian Jan 2015 #250

I don't even think they support the TPP per se... beerandjesus Jan 2015 #32

"... only Democrats that identify as �liberal� strongly favor the idea (of 'fast track authority for pampango Jan 2015 #98

You conflate Obama supporters with Liberal, why? Cosmic Kitten Jan 2015 #114

That was a quote from the article. That liberals support 'fast track' for Obama while conservatives pampango Jan 2015 #135

Please post the "liberal" quote... Cosmic Kitten Jan 2015 #137

No problem. Here it is. pampango Jan 2015 #138

Thank You. Phlem Jan 2015 #152

Yep. Phlem Jan 2015 #148

Why? daleanime Jan 2015 #24

LOL, coming from you this is really funny! nt Logical Jan 2015 #130

Why should I look at you. You don't have anything to say about the subject. Jakes Progress Jan 2015 #145

The "Look at Me" seeker is the one who ... grasswire Jan 2015 #233

Third Way Manny, you are gifted. Faryn Balyncd Jan 2015 #6

Hey, hey don't go encouraging him. nm rhett o rick Jan 2015 #13

I, for one welcome our new trans-pacific overlords. Snarkoleptic Jan 2015 #7

lol - gold. nt daredtowork Jan 2015 #11

Once again you put me in a bind. Whether to rec TWM or not. In either case I won't rhett o rick Jan 2015 #14

Rec *and* alert MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #23

For some strange reason, my alert button won't work. I think I burned it out on your previous TWM rhett o rick Jan 2015 #31

Button doesn't work? MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #40

Well, without getting too conspiratorial and stirring up the anti-CT Possie, I think rhett o rick Jan 2015 #240

Three cheers for: Lifelong Protester Jan 2015 #17

+1 F4lconF16 Jan 2015 #79

It Tastes Great!!! DeSwiss Jan 2015 #21

A final solution for homelessness *and* hunger MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #96

"UPS and FedEx are doing just fine. ... It's the Post Office that's always having problems". NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #33

Click on the link in the OP and find out. nt MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #37

OK, I'll say it: he's a tool. Is there any anti-labor sentiment/action he hasn't signed on to? NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #44

He doesn't support hanging union organizers. QC Jan 2015 #166

America, fuck yeah! Roy Rolling Jan 2015 #34

Thank you Roy ----- pablo_marmol Jan 2015 #43

that's right. he is not even a democrat PowerToThePeople Jan 2015 #38

Hey! You're getting the hang of it!! RobertEarl Jan 2015 #45

This needs to be seen by the White House Ramses Jan 2015 #50

Our elected representatives have to claw their way in to take a look at the document. pa28 Jan 2015 #53

It's so obviously and clearly beyond corrupt that I have no idea how some don't oppose it. stillwaiting Jan 2015 #90

"Stakeholder" is starting to wear on my nerves, like "homeland" did. Buns_of_Fire Jan 2015 #103

I know the feeling. I always considered US citizens to be "stakeholders". pa28 Jan 2015 #144

They need to change it to "The Kittyland" AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #219

The centrists are vying for medals in Sophistry BrotherIvan Jan 2015 #58

+1 beerandjesus Jan 2015 #189

I think they think it's working BrotherIvan Jan 2015 #193

Good point. This thread could be used as a teaching tool: MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #201

Or a pitiful attempt at gaslighting BrotherIvan Jan 2015 #210

The smartest psychologist I know tells me that MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #212

Interesting BrotherIvan Jan 2015 #214

From someone who stirs divisive shit here three times a week JohnnyRingo Jan 2015 #61

Are you sure about that? Number23 Jan 2015 #187

Do you have any @#$%ing idea, any idea at all, of MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #199

Well said. Andy823 Jan 2015 #209

That goes without saying. And it won't be funny to see it when it happens. It will be just as sad Number23 Jan 2015 #224

Only three times a week? Andy823 Jan 2015 #208

Explain the recs then! nt Logical Jan 2015 #236

Explain why Manny demands people stop posting opposition. JohnnyRingo Jan 2015 #241

LOL, no he did not. His point was that people do not understand how bad TPP could be. nt Logical Jan 2015 #247

Well said. nt Bobbie Jo Jan 2015 #266

Great thread Manny! Union Scribe Jan 2015 #91

Post removed Post removed Jan 2015 #97

What the fuck Manny. I clicked the blue link in your OP, the USPS can't catch a break. Autumn Jan 2015 #101

+Yup BrotherIvan Jan 2015 #191

It's the AMERICAN PEOPLE who deserve a break! MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #200

K&R for pissing off the right people. SixString Jan 2015 #104

Well done, Manny. Brilliant post! (nt) Shemp Howard Jan 2015 #107

I knew there were some trolls on DU... gregcrawford Jan 2015 #108

Greg, take a deep breath. Shemp Howard Jan 2015 #111

Please see post #141 gregcrawford Jan 2015 #151

thou knowest not our Manny. . . . n/t annabanana Jan 2015 #132

That was good! Way to go, Manny! Enthusiast Jan 2015 #110

I guess you left out the sarcasm smilie upaloopa Jan 2015 #112

You are ctsnowman Jan 2015 #115

First time I've seen the negative comments about USPS. Kermitt Gribble Jan 2015 #118

Yup.. 99Forever Jan 2015 #119

no problem, Washington will make up for the job losses and poverty by demanding whereisjustice Jan 2015 #122

+1000 abelenkpe Jan 2015 #179

Taking jobs from other countries Progressive dog Jan 2015 #124

well done! G_j Jan 2015 #125

Excellent Manny! Owl Jan 2015 #126

This is your best piece yet, Manny Oilwellian Jan 2015 #133

JFC... Not Sure Jan 2015 #134

Every trade deal for the last 25 years gave just the imthevicar Jan 2015 #140

YA GOT ME, MANNY! gregcrawford Jan 2015 #141

Nah, it was Poe's fault MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #213

Your erudition is inspiring! gregcrawford Jan 2015 #244

Don't feel bad, my initial read was the same way. nt Logical Jan 2015 #237

Well-played, sir! MindPilot Jan 2015 #142

''BANKSTER'' in Vietnamese is ''LARRY SUMMERS'' Octafish Jan 2015 #143

Fuck the TPP and JEB Jan 2015 #147

The Colbert of DU strikes again. mmonk Jan 2015 #149

LMAO Bobbie Jo Jan 2015 #159

K&R! Phlem Jan 2015 #153

All your base are belong to us. L0oniX Jan 2015 #173

OP article also praises Darrell Issa for leaking the draft chapter flogged by Jules and others: ucrdem Jan 2015 #174

This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Jan 2015 #181

This message was self-deleted by its author pbmus Jan 2015 #195

..... pbmus Jan 2015 #197

Yeah.. and about those CEO's salaries... MrMickeysMom Jan 2015 #202

Rec because just the right posters are coming Puglover Jan 2015 #216

Are you talking about the Perpetually Outraged? I love it Autumn Jan 2015 #256

You know. Puglover Jan 2015 #257

Yes.Them. It's rather sad that they hate DU and DUers so much but yet, here they are. Autumn Jan 2015 #258

I suspect they are reliving their glory days in High School. Puglover Jan 2015 #259

I had a wonderful but tiring holiday. I'm glad that things are Autumn Jan 2015 #260

I admire the self-sacrifice of spending 20-22 hours a day in a place one loathes QC Jan 2015 #262

I never thought of it like that but now I know I must appreciate them and I Autumn Jan 2015 #263

Awwww still here.... Bobbie Jo Jan 2015 #265

Are you sure they're after you? Number23 Jan 2015 #267

Heh Bobbie Jo Jan 2015 #268

I logged out to have a look Capt. Obvious Jan 2015 #261

Good Idea! 1step Jan 2015 #218

Thanks, Manny. JDPriestly Jan 2015 #220

Post removed Post removed Jan 2015 #222

Manny... RoccoR5955 Jan 2015 #223

+1000 sulphurdunn Jan 2015 #226

The sarcasm....it stings!... paleotn Jan 2015 #229

I can't believe he said that about the Post Office JonLP24 Jan 2015 #245

kick Electric Monk Jan 2015 #282