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GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)

212. "Sustainable" is a very slippery term because most people don't attach a time period to it.

Sat Jan 3, 2015, 01:10 PM

Jan 2015

I prefer a definition that goes something like this:

A sustainable system is an open system whose characteristics can be preserved ("sustained&quot for a given period, assuming no change in the system's environment.

This requires us to evaluate both the time period in question and the environment the system is operating in. In other words, it requires us expand the system boundaries to include its environment, and to to evaluate that larger system as a dynamic process within a bounded time frame.

Using an approach like that it's possible to understand how we could have arrived at estimates for a sustainable human population that range all the way from our current 7.2 billion all the way down to less than 10 million people living a hunter-gatherer lifestyle. It's even possible to conclude that human beings are an inherently unsustainable species, as per the opinion of evolutionary biologist Ernst Mayr, who said that intelligence is a lethal mutation.

From: http://www.paulchefurka.ca/Sustainability.html

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Why Is Population Growth Seldom Discussed? [View all] yellowwoodII Jan 2015 OP

You're right that it's an important marym625 Jan 2015 #1

US and Europe have decreased having as many children yeoman6987 Jan 2015 #84

It's a taboo subject dumbcat Jan 2015 #2

Lack of consensus that there's a problem MH1 Jan 2015 #42

+++100 Duppers Jan 2015 #88

+1000 smirkymonkey Jan 2015 #126

I've never reproduced. safeinOhio Jan 2015 #3

My 2 sons will not be fathers, their choice. dixiegrrrrl Jan 2015 #66

People don't want to discuss it NV Whino Jan 2015 #4

Because it isnt REALLY a problem, except for xenophobes and Republicans reddread Jan 2015 #5

So, since we here in America are OK dumbcat Jan 2015 #8

We have very little influence over other country's demographics, but we in the Ed Suspicious Jan 2015 #34

Bingo. ucrdem Jan 2015 #10

In your opinion, what is the carrying capacity of the planet? 1 Trillion? MH1 Jan 2015 #44

It is REALLY at the heart of our most difficult problems. earthside Jan 2015 #63

THANK YOU. Nobody ever wants to hear this, but it is so true. raccoon Jan 2015 #72

The issue of population growth is not only about physical space. NYC Liberal Jan 2015 #68

You're wrong tabasco Jan 2015 #220

This message was self-deleted by its author reddread Jan 2015 #221

Prolly cause the topic raises the notion of genocide as a solution.. Jesus Malverde Jan 2015 #6

Really? You think there are about 2.4 million new undocumented immigrants every year? muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #23

Thank you! Duppers Jan 2015 #92

Fairly obvious to anyone who lives in a city... Jesus Malverde Jan 2015 #105

So you're the kind of person who automatically thinks 'illegal' when they hear 'immigrant' muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #111

.. Jesus Malverde Jan 2015 #112

Because we've pretty much found the solution, it just takes time Recursion Jan 2015 #154

How much time do you think we have? GliderGuider Jan 2015 #155

Quite a bit Recursion Jan 2015 #156

Thanks, that explains it. nt GliderGuider Jan 2015 #160

Like global warming rock Jan 2015 #7

And They Are Basically Two Sides Of The Same Coin DallasNE Jan 2015 #27

"Mother Earth can only hold so many." Malthus was wrong in 1798 and he's still wrong. ucrdem Jan 2015 #9

When i go back and read comments based on Malthus, they generally are of hedgehog Jan 2015 #36

So you're saying the opposite, "Mother Earth can hold an infinite number"? MH1 Jan 2015 #45

Those aren't the only two options FBaggins Jan 2015 #60

Seriously? TM99 Jan 2015 #96

Seriously. People dress it up all kinds of ways ucrdem Jan 2015 #159

You have obviously not read this work TM99 Jan 2015 #169

LOL. Malthus also declares his false assumptions "obvious." nt ucrdem Jan 2015 #171

In other words, TM99 Jan 2015 #189

Just cutting to the chase. ucrdem Jan 2015 #201

Good progressives would be talking about it as among the top five priorities. NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #11

exactly! More density = More progressive policies. reddread Jan 2015 #28

Progressives favor plenty of things that aren't already in place MH1 Jan 2015 #46

Because a practical implementation would unbridle the arrogance of humanity. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2015 #12

Civilization and every institution we've built in it is based on more people doing more things The2ndWheel Jan 2015 #13

Go forth and multiply...preferably white and cute. Tierra_y_Libertad Jan 2015 #14

"white and cute"? whaaa? nt alp227 Jan 2015 #158

Because you're not willing to say that you shouldn't exist. Dreamer Tatum Jan 2015 #15

^^^^^ mopinko Jan 2015 #33

Plenty say "let it begin with me" as far as not reproducing. MH1 Jan 2015 #48

Wha?? You're conflating population control with genocide? CrawlingChaos Jan 2015 #167

Because any discussion is going to put it into a severely negative light and TheKentuckian Jan 2015 #16

Because it's a pointless subject. Igel Jan 2015 #17

Maybe because it isn't our job to police other people's reproduction? Demeter Jan 2015 #18

The US "did our part" is wrong. The US is overpopulated. Jim Lane Jan 2015 #86

Oh please! AlbertCat Jan 2015 #19

What should "we" do, though? delta17 Jan 2015 #39

that is what I told my youngest daughter Kalidurga Jan 2015 #81

This sums it up: Maedhros Jan 2015 #94

NEARLY half of all people now live in countries where women, on average, give birth to fewer than NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #20

This has been a concern of mine since learning about it in grade school and seeing it up front joanbarnes Jan 2015 #21

Good question. Basic LA Jan 2015 #22

Because population growth adieu Jan 2015 #24

Plus the global decline in birthrates as well. (nt) Posteritatis Jan 2015 #29

"A steep decline in deaths." LWolf Jan 2015 #211

I did not reproduce. The Green Manalishi Jan 2015 #25

Lol! CrispyQ Jan 2015 #58

love it! Duppers Jan 2015 #98

That sounds like you have a small circle of acquaintances FrodosPet Jan 2015 #195

Negative on h. sapiens in general The Green Manalishi Jan 2015 #205

+1 I hear ya! GliderGuider Jan 2015 #207

Population growth is most accurately chervilant Jan 2015 #26

a.f.m Duppers Jan 2015 #101

Actually, most populations are best represented by a logistic function. GliderGuider Jan 2015 #208

Thank you, Paul!! chervilant Jan 2015 #213

Population growth and carrying capacity GliderGuider Jan 2015 #214

You are right - human population increase is the fundamental problem Cassidy Jan 2015 #30

Educating men is also a direct way to reduce human population and to have fewer children. appalachiablue Jan 2015 #56

I'm skeptical metalbot Jan 2015 #147

"Educating women" doesn't refer to educating them on birth control; it refers to DebJ Jan 2015 #163

I understand that. Women are far more than walking uteruses. Men must also receive general and appalachiablue Jan 2015 #192

Maybe because it seems to be a problem that is solving itself as long hedgehog Jan 2015 #31

Very interesting Responses So Far yellowwoodII Jan 2015 #32

you missed the most important one, made more than once. mopinko Jan 2015 #35

Who do I think I am? the same person who has the right to tell you MH1 Jan 2015 #50

do you now? mopinko Jan 2015 #53

Not strip mining. More like carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. MH1 Jan 2015 #57

plenty of more wasteful sources of carbon out there than children. mopinko Jan 2015 #106

"maybe you took a wrong turn somewhere" - LOL MH1 Jan 2015 #108

Man, your posts are a perfect example of the completely tuned out bubble big chunks of this place Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #118

Seems to me you're more the one in a tuned out bubble muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #122

Im not saying ignore the world outside the USA, I'm saying global population isnt fungible. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #136

Maybe that would be better discussed without the words muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #165

Yeah, the 'reasonable' guy making vaguely violent-sounding noises about what 'they' will do to 'you' Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #166

And if people took that approach with the parts of the world that actually do have problems with Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #116

So true. polly7 Jan 2015 #144

And look at what happened with what should have been a manageable ebola outbreak. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #148

Eventually, nature will make the choice for us. Cassidy Jan 2015 #59

Fallacy of the excluded middle Jim Lane Jan 2015 #87

We haven't done absolutely nothing. We've given people the tools to make their own reproductive Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #119

We haven't done nothing, but also haven't done all we could. Jim Lane Jan 2015 #121

Either we're saying the same thing, or we aren't. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #134

If you refer to a "so-called population problem" then we're probably not saying the same thing. Jim Lane Jan 2015 #182

You're damn right I put it in quotes. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #198

Growth is a real problem, and so is the current high population. Jim Lane Jan 2015 #200

Yes, I lean towards the technological fix school of thought, if I can be ascribed to any "school" Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #202

We shouldn't put all our eggs in the technological fix basket. Jim Lane Jan 2015 #204

So yes, you yourself acknowledge that there's a rather large gap between the 1st world Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #206

The Third World has higher population growth, but we also have an overpopulation problem. Jim Lane Jan 2015 #217

And round and round and round we go, like I said, either we're saying the same thing or we aren't. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #218

Jury results: 0-7 to LEAVE IT. I kid you not. Your post was alerted. Cerridwen Jan 2015 #107

oy. mopinko Jan 2015 #109

It's okay, we can easily solve the over-population problem. tclambert Jan 2015 #37

Weird Coincidence.. I was just about to post an OP how the Reich Wing used this issue to their 2banon Jan 2015 #38

Very interesting points. Agree it seems that more thoughtful, caring liberals behaved in a appalachiablue Jan 2015 #64

My One Child is now an adult in her 40's.. She and her Wife got married several years ago 2banon Jan 2015 #70

How wonderful for you, two grandgirls. Agree we need serious catchup in population nos.for the left appalachiablue Jan 2015 #80

agreed. and the superrich have more kids than the middle classes do, on average. and they NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #97

I think it pits the developed world against the developing world etherealtruth Jan 2015 #40

THANK YOU. nt raccoon Jan 2015 #73

^^^^The correct answer^^^^ Starry Messenger Jan 2015 #145

Because you cannot support reproductive freedom and choice.. MicaelS Jan 2015 #41

Some people just wake up in the morning pissed off that they can't tell everyone else what to do. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #120

we don't live as isolated islands on this planet Duppers Jan 2015 #127

And I thought it was only right wing fundamentalists who were anti-choice. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #137

What happened to yellowwood1? Starry Messenger Jan 2015 #43

his parents have a time machine. they realized their error. nt mopinko Jan 2015 #54

I don't want any children so I'm selfishly doing my part. I think? the problem is BlueJazz Jan 2015 #47

Because... sendero Jan 2015 #49

People are selfish PasadenaTrudy Jan 2015 #51

Because the problem is solving itself. jeff47 Jan 2015 #52

Look at the latest predictions exboyfil Jan 2015 #62

Hey, it looks a lot like the earlier predictions that didn't come to pass. jeff47 Jan 2015 #129

And what about the natural carrying capacity for non-human species ffr Jan 2015 #74

Why do you have to lie to make your point? jeff47 Jan 2015 #132

Doesn't dignify a response. n/t ffr Jan 2015 #162

Neither did your lies. (nt) jeff47 Jan 2015 #178

Yes - what I was going to say: bhikkhu Jan 2015 #75

"We haven't had disaster and doom..." Who is included in "we"? Cassidy Jan 2015 #90

I bring it up as often as I can on DU and with everyone I speak to ffr Jan 2015 #55

The Optimum Population Trust ffr Jan 2015 #65

Population growth is essential to understanding the rise of global neoliberal economics and climate appalachiablue Jan 2015 #61

So how do we get Asians and Africans to quit reproducing? FrodosPet Jan 2015 #67

Assumption yellowwoodII Jan 2015 #69

You know what happens when you assume, right? FrodosPet Jan 2015 #194

Why? Iggo Jan 2015 #71

Because in the 4 hrs since this thread started, 76,000 more humans were added ffr Jan 2015 #78

Is that gross or net? Iggo Jan 2015 #79

Google! Damn it. As soon as I type a number it goes up. ffr Jan 2015 #82

Lol...take it easy! Iggo Jan 2015 #83

Lol...good luck ffr Jan 2015 #85

Wars will be fought over water in the near future. Calista241 Jan 2015 #175

I Don't Think that We "Get" Anyone To Do Anything yellowwoodII Jan 2015 #100

It does get discussed, but not as often or in the way it should be. SheilaT Jan 2015 #76

+1 You hit it dead on. ffr Jan 2015 #95

Thank you. SheilaT Jan 2015 #102

Identifying the problem is of little use unless you have a solution. surrealAmerican Jan 2015 #77

First step toward a solution: "Every child a wanted child." Jim Lane Jan 2015 #89

Anyone who wants to talk about sustainabilty but won't talk about population issues is a hypocrite. Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #91

isn't this something that is more connected to poverty, lack of education and other rights for JI7 Jan 2015 #93

Parental Procreation Permit seveneyes Jan 2015 #99

You're right. Need to crash our population nicely, before nature and war does it for us badly on point Jan 2015 #103

Then why is the US fertility rate stable, or even declining? Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #115

Answ: Because of education and pressure on women in occupations. on point Jan 2015 #193

Anyone can throw numbers out and claim them as authoritative. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #197

Because birth control is against many religion's policies. Dont call me Shirley Jan 2015 #104

Well, here are some reasons. rogerashton Jan 2015 #110

Because in economically developed countries where people are free and have access to contraception Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #113

They're not separate issues The2ndWheel Jan 2015 #176

Saying it will have to be addressed no matter what is not the same thing as saying they're linked. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #199

several reasons DonCoquixote Jan 2015 #114

humans quadrupled in only 1/2 a century. The mass-extinction was underway at least 15 yrs ago. stuntcat Jan 2015 #117

its an old chestnut reddread Jan 2015 #123

Webster Tarpley? You're going to quote a Lyndon LaRouche supporter who says we should follow Genesis muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #125

im pointing to an old ruse from the same interests, and got a rise out of you reddread Jan 2015 #128

It's usually not a safe subject. ozone_man Jan 2015 #124

contoversial topic Liberal_in_LA Jan 2015 #130

Here are a couple of population-related graphics worth thinking about: GliderGuider Jan 2015 #131

The context missing in your first graphic jeff47 Jan 2015 #138

At the bottom I note that replacement TFR is 2.1 GliderGuider Jan 2015 #140

Um...1.0 would be horrific. jeff47 Jan 2015 #141

Retirement problems we can figure out. Missing keystone species, not so much. GliderGuider Jan 2015 #142

No, we really can't "figure it out" jeff47 Jan 2015 #143

Actually I have thought an awful lot about it. GliderGuider Jan 2015 #149

Thinking it for a long time is not thinking about it. jeff47 Jan 2015 #177

Sounds like we should be privitizing the profits of the planet, and socializing the costs The2ndWheel Jan 2015 #180

Quick!!! CHANGE THE SUBJECT!!! jeff47 Jan 2015 #181

Currently The2ndWheel Jan 2015 #184

Unless we start converting energy into matter jeff47 Jan 2015 #185

You're not hearing me on the privatization thing The2ndWheel Jan 2015 #191

+1 GliderGuider Jan 2015 #209

Thanks for sharing. GliderGuider Jan 2015 #188

+1000 smirkymonkey Jan 2015 #133

We are well into overshoot with significant carrying capacity degradation. airplaneman Jan 2015 #135

I can't wait for posts when December articles of Stephanie Seneff, Phd. MIT Senior Scientific Staff appalachiablue Jan 2015 #139

We need more trumpeting ... JEFF9K Jan 2015 #146

I find it surprising that people actually think OnionPatch Jan 2015 #150

actually the mathematics behind a lower birth rate is pretty impressive airplaneman Jan 2015 #164

Parasites who kill their host cause their own deaths. Jamastiene Jan 2015 #151

I think it should be discussed more especially in the US davidpdx Jan 2015 #152

Because, JESUS. eom progressoid Jan 2015 #153

Because it inevitably leads to accusations "YOUR A NAZI WHO WANTS MASS GENOCIDE/STERILIZATION" alp227 Jan 2015 #157

Utopia Series 2 Episode 6 Opening Scene Jesus Malverde Jan 2015 #161

Not only is it seldom discussed CrawlingChaos Jan 2015 #168

That's because society is based on more people doing more things The2ndWheel Jan 2015 #179

People who don't have children are "screwing everyone else"? Bullshit. CrawlingChaos Jan 2015 #203

Because people do not want to hear this. RoccoR5955 Jan 2015 #170

What is a reasonable level? The2ndWheel Jan 2015 #173

That's a difficult question to answer. Jim Lane Jan 2015 #183

That's what makes it so contentious and fun The2ndWheel Jan 2015 #186

I don't agree that seven billion is sustainable just because that's the current number. Jim Lane Jan 2015 #187

It's sustainable until the spending hits $10,000 The2ndWheel Jan 2015 #190

Environmentalists who address sustainability don't give that word the broad meaning that you do. Jim Lane Jan 2015 #196

"Sustainable" is a very slippery term because most people don't attach a time period to it. GliderGuider Jan 2015 #212

Humanity is too greedy & simplistic to change its parasitic behavior Triana Jan 2015 #172

Re: food and water shortages Triana Jan 2015 #174

Because it intersects LWolf Jan 2015 #210

In fairness to the catholic church Trillo Jan 2015 #215

KICK for further discussion Homer Wells Jan 2015 #216

I've posted about it many times in the past, and will do so again. It's our most 20score Jan 2015 #219