General Discussion

teleharmonium

(77 posts)

107. don't assign your arguments to me

Thu Jan 8, 2015, 05:03 PM

Jan 2015

I didn't say that. I don't believe there has to be one valid interpretation or that there could be an objective arbiter.

There are a lot of free speech purists, the last couple of days. I can relate to that, but at the same time, free speech always has a limit. We're talking about where that limit is, not whether it exists.

What exactly are the flaws you see in the analogy ? It's a pretty simple set of variables. You have a person symbolic of a religion, a holy book, the context of a recent mass murder of civilians, and bullets flying through the holy book and the person who is now dead. And then there are captions calling that holy book shit and pointing out that believing in it did not save the lives of it's believers.

I'm a person that thinks it is terrible to poke fun of recent mass murders and the beliefs of people who laid down their lives for a cause (which I would point out was democracy as well as Islamism, in the case of Egypt) in that way.

What makes this less applicable to one minority group than another ?

Maybe we should try another version. A cartoon comes out tomorrow morning, showing a guy wearing glasses that looks like Charbo. He's holding up a sketchbook and a pen, and bullets are going through them and through him, and he has crosses for eyes. The captions say "Charlie Hebdo is shit" and that sketches don't stop bullets.

Still satire ?

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Satire Does Not Always Involve Humor. The Most Powerful Satire Never Does. [View all] MineralMan Jan 2015 OP

Well said. Some satire is supposed to make your skin crawl. nt msanthrope Jan 2015 #1

Indeed. Satire is only effective if it angers its targets. MineralMan Jan 2015 #2

Last night I pulled out my copy of the Jerry Falwell Campari ad. It's still disgusting. And I msanthrope Jan 2015 #5

I remember that one, too. MineralMan Jan 2015 #8

So I go to law school, and in my ConLaw class, we read the case. There's no picture..... msanthrope Jan 2015 #13

The Muslim world is genuinely unfunny and unlikely to appreciate satire. randome Jan 2015 #3

All the more reason to satirize. MineralMan Jan 2015 #6

I agree completely. The more we are free to satirize and criticize, the better. For us. randome Jan 2015 #11

One sentence says it all albino65 Jan 2015 #52

Mindy Kaling is of Hindu background Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #60

I'd forgotten all about that film. I have no idea if any conclusions were reached. randome Jan 2015 #110

Al Franken didn't do that movie geardaddy Jan 2015 #128

Dave Chappelle. He's a comedian and Muslim JonLP24 Jan 2015 #214

Exactly. Satire is not a synonym for humor. immoderate Jan 2015 #4

Rec! LostOne4Ever Jan 2015 #7

Exactly. It was decidedly not funny. MineralMan Jan 2015 #19

Sinclair Lewis. Samuel Butler Downwinder Jan 2015 #21

"Or is there some humor in suggesting people eat the children of the poor that I don't get?" F4lconF16 Jan 2015 #55

You? Satiric? No! elias49 Jan 2015 #9

WHO is "BLAMING" Charlie Hebdo for the violence that took place? Who? I'd like to know. MADem Jan 2015 #10

That inability is everywhere, too, on so many topics, and not just here at DU. arcane1 Jan 2015 #14

Bingo--you got it. MADem Jan 2015 #38

Well one poster in the religion forum pretty much said they should LostOne4Ever Jan 2015 #15

Well, I mean, really--duh. They didn't publish that stuff to have people go "Ho hum." MADem Jan 2015 #29

There are others posts blaming them all over this forum LostOne4Ever Jan 2015 #40

I agree. F4lconF16 Jan 2015 #71

Sure thing F4lconF16 LostOne4Ever Jan 2015 #95

I agree... Wgles Jan 2015 #123

Everyone keeps saying that, and they can only come up with one post that MADem Jan 2015 #145

There has definitely been victim vilifying oberliner Jan 2015 #199

Its more than one post LostOne4Ever Jan 2015 #206

TL/DR. MADem Jan 2015 #209

TLDR? LostOne4Ever Jan 2015 #211

I see you're the type of poster that snarks "classy" when someone tells you the truth MADem Jan 2015 #212

You are the one who started with the snark LostOne4Ever Jan 2015 #213

I was simply telling you the truth. It was TLDR. MADem Jan 2015 #215

Agreed. Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #16

Judging what is offensive is a personal matter. MineralMan Jan 2015 #22

My point is that no one here is saying that anyone is "entitled to respond by killing the MADem Jan 2015 #33

But a number of people have said that the victims "should have expected" MineralMan Jan 2015 #39

Well of course they "should have expected" it. For chrissake--are we expected to MADem Jan 2015 #62

Some people hide from conflict. Others do not. MineralMan Jan 2015 #65

Sure. I think the truth is always best. I favor speech as a response to speech. MADem Jan 2015 #74

Of course there is an insunuation of at least part blame on the victim LiberalLovinLug Jan 2015 #93

I cannot disagree more strongly. MADem Jan 2015 #113

Well of course she "should have expected it". Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #137

Apparently you don't. You're confusing understanding risk with victim blaming. MADem Jan 2015 #141

No, he's not confused. you're deflecting. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #144

No--I'm staying right on point. MADem Jan 2015 #146

Like calling them careless, for their vile cartoons? AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #150

Again--since you aren't taking the point, you want to censor a single DUer for stating MADem Jan 2015 #154

No, I don't want to censor him. I want him to fucking know better than to post that shit. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #167

No, you don't want to censor him--you want to bully him into censoring himself? MADem Jan 2015 #175

Stop right there. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #177

The content of the magazine is what necessitates the lock on the 'f-ing' door. MADem Jan 2015 #179

A lock on the door does the dead guy in the street a lot of good. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #181

You're missing the fact that the "guy on the street" wasn't the target of those guys. MADem Jan 2015 #186

Oh please. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #195

Oh, please, yourself. You've done nothing but try to create a false association. MADem Jan 2015 #197

In all my time on internet forums, one thing I've found to be true, every time... AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #200

Well,golly, victory is yours, then.... MADem Jan 2015 #208

You have a 'nice day' too. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #210

I agree I have a right to wear whatever I want and that's no excuse for raping me treestar Jan 2015 #192

We know that men cannot control their impulses. So dress appropriately. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #194

You're doing just what I said treestar Jan 2015 #202

I wouldin't have a problem with it if they said they were offended, and there was no escalation AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #205

You seem to be confused by the difference in the boundary between speech, and the sound barrier AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #196

No, I'm not treestar Jan 2015 #203

This post is a winner! That last paragraph is a home run! nt MADem Jan 2015 #198

Actually, the OP isn't even saying that anyone is saying... Pacifist Patriot Jan 2015 #41

Thank you. I said no such thing at all, or at any time. MineralMan Jan 2015 #44

But no one is blaming the victim--and that is the point of the OP. MADem Jan 2015 #63

No one is saying it. It is always the off the handle accusation when you say the cartoons ARE Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #57

Did I say I blamed the victims? Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #47

I agree deutsey Jan 2015 #104

You are making the same distinctions I am. Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #109

I thought the same thing when I saw a similar thread earlier today... Pacifist Patriot Jan 2015 #18

Charlie Hebdo desired a strong response--that's why they published that material. MADem Jan 2015 #34

Fine line Pacifist Patriot Jan 2015 #37

They did ask for a conversation with their stuff. They weren't in the "Art for Art's Sake" MADem Jan 2015 #69

I haven't made it a point to include that. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jan 2015 #26

Thank you. It is possible to be disgusted by images yet not be a proponent of mass murder as an expr uppityperson Jan 2015 #43

Here's some. Someone you know, no less. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #48

Here is a post from the main story christx30 Jan 2015 #54

Saying they were "careless" is "victim blaming?" MADem Jan 2015 #97

I said 'frantically' because, in his own words... AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #106

It's an opinion. In a telling irony, the publisher himself "predicted" violence. MADem Jan 2015 #115

That's a ridiculous stretch. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #131

No, he's not. If he wanted to say they should not have done it, MADem Jan 2015 #133

It's not a cheap shot. You're defending him. And he did. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #134

If it's "hard to show with all those self deletes" then it is that--hard to show. MADem Jan 2015 #140

The poster below my initial objection offered more links to other posters. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #143

Why keep hauling out one guy and berating him? There hasn't been a great avalanche MADem Jan 2015 #151

Another interesting deflection. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #152

I'm sorry-- I don't "know" him like you seem to--even though you keep insisting I do. MADem Jan 2015 #156

You know him by screen name. That's as far as I meant that. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #168

Skip has lost his way of late. nt Codeine Jan 2015 #148

Typical DU these days treestar Jan 2015 #189

But poor satire does rather invite criticism. Orsino Jan 2015 #12

Yes, some satire is neither funny, necessary or in any sense "important" whathehell Jan 2015 #20

Interesting. How do you feel about the Charlie Hebdo MineralMan Jan 2015 #23

The few I've seen look, cursorily, puerile and mean. Orsino Jan 2015 #30

Yes, they were. That was intentional. MineralMan Jan 2015 #32

I think it all depends on HappyMe Jan 2015 #73

Those cartoons were not making fun of anyone's religious beliefs. MineralMan Jan 2015 #79

I said that I personally do not make fun of people's beliefs. HappyMe Jan 2015 #101

Here's what I think: whathehell Jan 2015 #50

In some cases, however, religion is the very core of some societies. MineralMan Jan 2015 #53

I understand, but in those cases, whathehell Jan 2015 #142

I have always thought that good satire pennylane100 Jan 2015 #17

Satire does not have to entertain. MineralMan Jan 2015 #24

I must disagree. pennylane100 Jan 2015 #42

That doesn't change the fact that there are people out there that will The2ndWheel Jan 2015 #25

I didn't imply that such things don't happen. MineralMan Jan 2015 #31

And just being deliberately offensive doesn't make what you say or draw satire, either. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jan 2015 #27

That also. eom uppityperson Jan 2015 #45

Exactly.. whathehell Jan 2015 #166

I think that finding the Hebdo "satire" offensive ... ananda Jan 2015 #28

Oddly enough, though, it is not western societies MineralMan Jan 2015 #35

Seriously? Google christian religious violence. It is indeed by a tiny minority but not "just 1" uppityperson Jan 2015 #49

Northern Ireland, Croatia, Ukraine, domestic terror.....it just does not get the media coverage. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #91

The conflict in Northrn Ireland involved two communities of different religions but whathehell Jan 2015 #170

Rep. Steve King agrees with you, it was politics, but quite a few dead innocents do not and of Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #183

Sure. Saying it was politically-based means Steve & I are buds & I'm good with "dead innocents" whathehell Jan 2015 #193

CAR, anti-Balaka militia, christian and animist militiasattacking Muslim Fulani herders uppityperson Jan 2015 #126

Just one religion? Only if you ignore most of the others... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #185

Good op. NCTraveler Jan 2015 #36

Good point. The Velveteen Ocelot Jan 2015 #46

I wouldn't use that type of satire, for many reasons, but mostly MineralMan Jan 2015 #51

satire is an extremely generous term here. Or maybe just wrong. teleharmonium Jan 2015 #56

"Satire" is the wrong word being thrown about. Does it meet the definition, because satire is Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #61

I think you misunderstand the meaning of "topical." MineralMan Jan 2015 #72

I disagree. It is satire. Not my style of satire, but MineralMan Jan 2015 #64

Why, then, poke the bear, what do you think the danger might be? Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #70

You're defining satire based on only part of the actual MineralMan Jan 2015 #75

But you could argue everything is topical then, from evolution to the theory of relativity. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #77

Current events. MineralMan Jan 2015 #84

Then "topical" has no meaning....the theory of gravity was once topical, now it is just a topic. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #86

At this point, your argument has become specious, so MineralMan Jan 2015 #92

and also teleharmonium Jan 2015 #100

terms and bears teleharmonium Jan 2015 #80

And no one is implying or saying the victims deserved it, quite the opposite. One can be horrified Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #85

I gave my interpretation of it in post #81 nt riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #89

The three clerics in the second comic are saying exactly what you are saying: Charlie goes to far! Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #77

question teleharmonium Jan 2015 #90

That cartoon is about a specific event. When people kill each other and they are all claiming to be Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #111

relevance teleharmonium Jan 2015 #114

The thing is, I get that viewpoint of the satire in that cover riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #81

perhaps teleharmonium Jan 2015 #99

You're deciding then that "someone" has to an arbiter riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #102

don't assign your arguments to me teleharmonium Jan 2015 #107

As to your analogy, its flawed because the Muslims are in France riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #116

not sure you are the spokesman teleharmonium Jan 2015 #120

I'm surely not the spokesman but I have a degree in Modern European history riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #127

this sounds like a specious argument teleharmonium Jan 2015 #129

Go read some French history and get back to me then riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #130

are you telling me teleharmonium Jan 2015 #132

Anyone who attacks people is a criminal. Period. riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #135

straw man teleharmonium Jan 2015 #204

Thanks for a very well reasoned post. Denzil_DC Jan 2015 #88

Great post! I think what bugs me the most is my sense that satirists should be going KingCharlemagne Jan 2015 #108

Thank you. yellerpup Jan 2015 #58

You're too kind. MineralMan Jan 2015 #66

Thank you for making both these points ... Scuba Jan 2015 #59

Thanks, Scuba. MineralMan Jan 2015 #67

Good Post jalan48 Jan 2015 #68

IMO, satire is most powerful/relevant when it targets ingroups, especially those with real power. Denzil_DC Jan 2015 #76

exactly teleharmonium Jan 2015 #105

Sadly, the cartoon you linked to is inaccessible, but I get the gist. Denzil_DC Jan 2015 #112

right teleharmonium Jan 2015 #117

I think it is this cartoon... MADem Jan 2015 #119

Thanks. Denzil_DC Jan 2015 #122

The most effective satire is not funny Gothmog Jan 2015 #82

Agreed. K&R nt riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #83

Well said. Example: " A Modest Proposal". riqster Jan 2015 #87

As I recall, it pissed of a lot of the right people, too. MineralMan Jan 2015 #96

S'truth. I may just pick it up again. riqster Jan 2015 #136

Well Said! cer7711 Jan 2015 #94

No need to pardon the alliteration. MineralMan Jan 2015 #98

How about just crudeness and stupidity? Brigid Jan 2015 #103

Don't get mad, get even Pantagruelsmember Jan 2015 #118

Very true! Satire can be scorn or outright mockery. Sardonic in nature. Rex Jan 2015 #121

Would you consider this cartoon satire? PADemD Jan 2015 #124

Given all the other octopus images, yes. MineralMan Jan 2015 #138

That's some anti-Semitic 'satire' if I've ever seen some.... MADem Jan 2015 #147

I agree. PADemD Jan 2015 #164

Oh, certainly, I concur. I think where people are going wrong is MADem Jan 2015 #165

Another point of view PADemD Jan 2015 #171

That link was a damn interesting read! Lots to chew on, there! nt MADem Jan 2015 #176

You would have to just about be leftynyc Jan 2015 #125

Art Buchwald wrote some powerful satire Art_from_Ark Jan 2015 #139

"Satire is a means ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #149

Outstanding post. Zorra Jan 2015 #153

Agreed. NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #155

Exactly. nt Zorra Jan 2015 #178

Ok. I'll bite. Modern day evangelical Christians are a circle jerk of hypocrisy riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #158

If the cartoon was meant ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #159

Jesus is getting fucked as well. riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #161

The actions of those ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #162

Exactly! Agreed! So you see what Charlie Hebdo did? riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #163

"Their satire is meant to inspire conversation." NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #169

Just as an fyi, I am Irish and no, I would never kill over that stereotype nt riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #172

And I am a Jew ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #174

Quit blaming the victim, Nance. LAGC Jan 2015 #184

I'm just saying, if you know your husband gets punchy when dinner isn't ready, DawgHouse Jan 2015 #157

I always like to refer people to dictionaries Dyedinthewoolliberal Jan 2015 #160

Exactly. MineralMan Jan 2015 #187

Thanks for your BPE... GReedDiamond Jan 2015 #173

Thanks. I'm nothing if not variable in post quality. MineralMan Jan 2015 #188

"A Modest Proposal" by Jonathan Swift is one of history's most outrageous examples. Mark Twain... Hekate Jan 2015 #180

Somewhere upthread, I mentioned Gulliver's Travels. MineralMan Jan 2015 #190

Fascinating thesis. MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #182

Thinking is always a good thing, certainly. MineralMan Jan 2015 #191

K&R.... daleanime Jan 2015 #201

nota bene: A Modest Proposal annabanana Jan 2015 #207