General Discussion

teleharmonium

(77 posts)

129. this sounds like a specious argument

Thu Jan 8, 2015, 05:54 PM

Jan 2015

unless you are then willing to argue that it's French culture to attack veiled women when they walk alone.

It seems to me that adjusting is a two way street. I've occasionally been around Muslims wearing veils, or others in different kinds of what I take to be religious clothes, here in the US. Somehow, it was never a burden to me to have them around, and I never felt the need to harass or attack them. People that do that aren't French, they are bigots.

Personally, if I moved somewhere, there are things that I would adjust to, and things that I wouldn't. I'm not religious, but if I was I'm sure that would be in the latter category.

Re: your last statement, I made no such claim. This sort of discussion is better for everybody if you don't just make stuff up and pretend I said it.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

215 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Satire Does Not Always Involve Humor. The Most Powerful Satire Never Does. [View all] MineralMan Jan 2015 OP

Well said. Some satire is supposed to make your skin crawl. nt msanthrope Jan 2015 #1

Indeed. Satire is only effective if it angers its targets. MineralMan Jan 2015 #2

Last night I pulled out my copy of the Jerry Falwell Campari ad. It's still disgusting. And I msanthrope Jan 2015 #5

I remember that one, too. MineralMan Jan 2015 #8

So I go to law school, and in my ConLaw class, we read the case. There's no picture..... msanthrope Jan 2015 #13

The Muslim world is genuinely unfunny and unlikely to appreciate satire. randome Jan 2015 #3

All the more reason to satirize. MineralMan Jan 2015 #6

I agree completely. The more we are free to satirize and criticize, the better. For us. randome Jan 2015 #11

One sentence says it all albino65 Jan 2015 #52

Mindy Kaling is of Hindu background Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #60

I'd forgotten all about that film. I have no idea if any conclusions were reached. randome Jan 2015 #110

Al Franken didn't do that movie geardaddy Jan 2015 #128

Dave Chappelle. He's a comedian and Muslim JonLP24 Jan 2015 #214

Exactly. Satire is not a synonym for humor. immoderate Jan 2015 #4

Rec! LostOne4Ever Jan 2015 #7

Exactly. It was decidedly not funny. MineralMan Jan 2015 #19

Sinclair Lewis. Samuel Butler Downwinder Jan 2015 #21

"Or is there some humor in suggesting people eat the children of the poor that I don't get?" F4lconF16 Jan 2015 #55

You? Satiric? No! elias49 Jan 2015 #9

WHO is "BLAMING" Charlie Hebdo for the violence that took place? Who? I'd like to know. MADem Jan 2015 #10

That inability is everywhere, too, on so many topics, and not just here at DU. arcane1 Jan 2015 #14

Bingo--you got it. MADem Jan 2015 #38

Well one poster in the religion forum pretty much said they should LostOne4Ever Jan 2015 #15

Well, I mean, really--duh. They didn't publish that stuff to have people go "Ho hum." MADem Jan 2015 #29

There are others posts blaming them all over this forum LostOne4Ever Jan 2015 #40

I agree. F4lconF16 Jan 2015 #71

Sure thing F4lconF16 LostOne4Ever Jan 2015 #95

I agree... Wgles Jan 2015 #123

Everyone keeps saying that, and they can only come up with one post that MADem Jan 2015 #145

There has definitely been victim vilifying oberliner Jan 2015 #199

Its more than one post LostOne4Ever Jan 2015 #206

TL/DR. MADem Jan 2015 #209

TLDR? LostOne4Ever Jan 2015 #211

I see you're the type of poster that snarks "classy" when someone tells you the truth MADem Jan 2015 #212

You are the one who started with the snark LostOne4Ever Jan 2015 #213

I was simply telling you the truth. It was TLDR. MADem Jan 2015 #215

Agreed. Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #16

Judging what is offensive is a personal matter. MineralMan Jan 2015 #22

My point is that no one here is saying that anyone is "entitled to respond by killing the MADem Jan 2015 #33

But a number of people have said that the victims "should have expected" MineralMan Jan 2015 #39

Well of course they "should have expected" it. For chrissake--are we expected to MADem Jan 2015 #62

Some people hide from conflict. Others do not. MineralMan Jan 2015 #65

Sure. I think the truth is always best. I favor speech as a response to speech. MADem Jan 2015 #74

Of course there is an insunuation of at least part blame on the victim LiberalLovinLug Jan 2015 #93

I cannot disagree more strongly. MADem Jan 2015 #113

Well of course she "should have expected it". Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #137

Apparently you don't. You're confusing understanding risk with victim blaming. MADem Jan 2015 #141

No, he's not confused. you're deflecting. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #144

No--I'm staying right on point. MADem Jan 2015 #146

Like calling them careless, for their vile cartoons? AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #150

Again--since you aren't taking the point, you want to censor a single DUer for stating MADem Jan 2015 #154

No, I don't want to censor him. I want him to fucking know better than to post that shit. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #167

No, you don't want to censor him--you want to bully him into censoring himself? MADem Jan 2015 #175

Stop right there. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #177

The content of the magazine is what necessitates the lock on the 'f-ing' door. MADem Jan 2015 #179

A lock on the door does the dead guy in the street a lot of good. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #181

You're missing the fact that the "guy on the street" wasn't the target of those guys. MADem Jan 2015 #186

Oh please. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #195

Oh, please, yourself. You've done nothing but try to create a false association. MADem Jan 2015 #197

In all my time on internet forums, one thing I've found to be true, every time... AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #200

Well,golly, victory is yours, then.... MADem Jan 2015 #208

You have a 'nice day' too. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #210

I agree I have a right to wear whatever I want and that's no excuse for raping me treestar Jan 2015 #192

We know that men cannot control their impulses. So dress appropriately. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #194

You're doing just what I said treestar Jan 2015 #202

I wouldin't have a problem with it if they said they were offended, and there was no escalation AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #205

You seem to be confused by the difference in the boundary between speech, and the sound barrier AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #196

No, I'm not treestar Jan 2015 #203

This post is a winner! That last paragraph is a home run! nt MADem Jan 2015 #198

Actually, the OP isn't even saying that anyone is saying... Pacifist Patriot Jan 2015 #41

Thank you. I said no such thing at all, or at any time. MineralMan Jan 2015 #44

But no one is blaming the victim--and that is the point of the OP. MADem Jan 2015 #63

No one is saying it. It is always the off the handle accusation when you say the cartoons ARE Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #57

Did I say I blamed the victims? Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #47

I agree deutsey Jan 2015 #104

You are making the same distinctions I am. Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #109

I thought the same thing when I saw a similar thread earlier today... Pacifist Patriot Jan 2015 #18

Charlie Hebdo desired a strong response--that's why they published that material. MADem Jan 2015 #34

Fine line Pacifist Patriot Jan 2015 #37

They did ask for a conversation with their stuff. They weren't in the "Art for Art's Sake" MADem Jan 2015 #69

I haven't made it a point to include that. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jan 2015 #26

Thank you. It is possible to be disgusted by images yet not be a proponent of mass murder as an expr uppityperson Jan 2015 #43

Here's some. Someone you know, no less. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #48

Here is a post from the main story christx30 Jan 2015 #54

Saying they were "careless" is "victim blaming?" MADem Jan 2015 #97

I said 'frantically' because, in his own words... AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #106

It's an opinion. In a telling irony, the publisher himself "predicted" violence. MADem Jan 2015 #115

That's a ridiculous stretch. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #131

No, he's not. If he wanted to say they should not have done it, MADem Jan 2015 #133

It's not a cheap shot. You're defending him. And he did. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #134

If it's "hard to show with all those self deletes" then it is that--hard to show. MADem Jan 2015 #140

The poster below my initial objection offered more links to other posters. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #143

Why keep hauling out one guy and berating him? There hasn't been a great avalanche MADem Jan 2015 #151

Another interesting deflection. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #152

I'm sorry-- I don't "know" him like you seem to--even though you keep insisting I do. MADem Jan 2015 #156

You know him by screen name. That's as far as I meant that. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #168

Skip has lost his way of late. nt Codeine Jan 2015 #148

Typical DU these days treestar Jan 2015 #189

But poor satire does rather invite criticism. Orsino Jan 2015 #12

Yes, some satire is neither funny, necessary or in any sense "important" whathehell Jan 2015 #20

Interesting. How do you feel about the Charlie Hebdo MineralMan Jan 2015 #23

The few I've seen look, cursorily, puerile and mean. Orsino Jan 2015 #30

Yes, they were. That was intentional. MineralMan Jan 2015 #32

I think it all depends on HappyMe Jan 2015 #73

Those cartoons were not making fun of anyone's religious beliefs. MineralMan Jan 2015 #79

I said that I personally do not make fun of people's beliefs. HappyMe Jan 2015 #101

Here's what I think: whathehell Jan 2015 #50

In some cases, however, religion is the very core of some societies. MineralMan Jan 2015 #53

I understand, but in those cases, whathehell Jan 2015 #142

I have always thought that good satire pennylane100 Jan 2015 #17

Satire does not have to entertain. MineralMan Jan 2015 #24

I must disagree. pennylane100 Jan 2015 #42

That doesn't change the fact that there are people out there that will The2ndWheel Jan 2015 #25

I didn't imply that such things don't happen. MineralMan Jan 2015 #31

And just being deliberately offensive doesn't make what you say or draw satire, either. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jan 2015 #27

That also. eom uppityperson Jan 2015 #45

Exactly.. whathehell Jan 2015 #166

I think that finding the Hebdo "satire" offensive ... ananda Jan 2015 #28

Oddly enough, though, it is not western societies MineralMan Jan 2015 #35

Seriously? Google christian religious violence. It is indeed by a tiny minority but not "just 1" uppityperson Jan 2015 #49

Northern Ireland, Croatia, Ukraine, domestic terror.....it just does not get the media coverage. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #91

The conflict in Northrn Ireland involved two communities of different religions but whathehell Jan 2015 #170

Rep. Steve King agrees with you, it was politics, but quite a few dead innocents do not and of Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #183

Sure. Saying it was politically-based means Steve & I are buds & I'm good with "dead innocents" whathehell Jan 2015 #193

CAR, anti-Balaka militia, christian and animist militiasattacking Muslim Fulani herders uppityperson Jan 2015 #126

Just one religion? Only if you ignore most of the others... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #185

Good op. NCTraveler Jan 2015 #36

Good point. The Velveteen Ocelot Jan 2015 #46

I wouldn't use that type of satire, for many reasons, but mostly MineralMan Jan 2015 #51

satire is an extremely generous term here. Or maybe just wrong. teleharmonium Jan 2015 #56

"Satire" is the wrong word being thrown about. Does it meet the definition, because satire is Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #61

I think you misunderstand the meaning of "topical." MineralMan Jan 2015 #72

I disagree. It is satire. Not my style of satire, but MineralMan Jan 2015 #64

Why, then, poke the bear, what do you think the danger might be? Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #70

You're defining satire based on only part of the actual MineralMan Jan 2015 #75

But you could argue everything is topical then, from evolution to the theory of relativity. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #77

Current events. MineralMan Jan 2015 #84

Then "topical" has no meaning....the theory of gravity was once topical, now it is just a topic. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #86

At this point, your argument has become specious, so MineralMan Jan 2015 #92

and also teleharmonium Jan 2015 #100

terms and bears teleharmonium Jan 2015 #80

And no one is implying or saying the victims deserved it, quite the opposite. One can be horrified Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #85

I gave my interpretation of it in post #81 nt riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #89

The three clerics in the second comic are saying exactly what you are saying: Charlie goes to far! Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #77

question teleharmonium Jan 2015 #90

That cartoon is about a specific event. When people kill each other and they are all claiming to be Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #111

relevance teleharmonium Jan 2015 #114

The thing is, I get that viewpoint of the satire in that cover riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #81

perhaps teleharmonium Jan 2015 #99

You're deciding then that "someone" has to an arbiter riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #102

don't assign your arguments to me teleharmonium Jan 2015 #107

As to your analogy, its flawed because the Muslims are in France riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #116

not sure you are the spokesman teleharmonium Jan 2015 #120

I'm surely not the spokesman but I have a degree in Modern European history riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #127

this sounds like a specious argument teleharmonium Jan 2015 #129

Go read some French history and get back to me then riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #130

are you telling me teleharmonium Jan 2015 #132

Anyone who attacks people is a criminal. Period. riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #135

straw man teleharmonium Jan 2015 #204

Thanks for a very well reasoned post. Denzil_DC Jan 2015 #88

Great post! I think what bugs me the most is my sense that satirists should be going KingCharlemagne Jan 2015 #108

Thank you. yellerpup Jan 2015 #58

You're too kind. MineralMan Jan 2015 #66

Thank you for making both these points ... Scuba Jan 2015 #59

Thanks, Scuba. MineralMan Jan 2015 #67

Good Post jalan48 Jan 2015 #68

IMO, satire is most powerful/relevant when it targets ingroups, especially those with real power. Denzil_DC Jan 2015 #76

exactly teleharmonium Jan 2015 #105

Sadly, the cartoon you linked to is inaccessible, but I get the gist. Denzil_DC Jan 2015 #112

right teleharmonium Jan 2015 #117

I think it is this cartoon... MADem Jan 2015 #119

Thanks. Denzil_DC Jan 2015 #122

The most effective satire is not funny Gothmog Jan 2015 #82

Agreed. K&R nt riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #83

Well said. Example: " A Modest Proposal". riqster Jan 2015 #87

As I recall, it pissed of a lot of the right people, too. MineralMan Jan 2015 #96

S'truth. I may just pick it up again. riqster Jan 2015 #136

Well Said! cer7711 Jan 2015 #94

No need to pardon the alliteration. MineralMan Jan 2015 #98

How about just crudeness and stupidity? Brigid Jan 2015 #103

Don't get mad, get even Pantagruelsmember Jan 2015 #118

Very true! Satire can be scorn or outright mockery. Sardonic in nature. Rex Jan 2015 #121

Would you consider this cartoon satire? PADemD Jan 2015 #124

Given all the other octopus images, yes. MineralMan Jan 2015 #138

That's some anti-Semitic 'satire' if I've ever seen some.... MADem Jan 2015 #147

I agree. PADemD Jan 2015 #164

Oh, certainly, I concur. I think where people are going wrong is MADem Jan 2015 #165

Another point of view PADemD Jan 2015 #171

That link was a damn interesting read! Lots to chew on, there! nt MADem Jan 2015 #176

You would have to just about be leftynyc Jan 2015 #125

Art Buchwald wrote some powerful satire Art_from_Ark Jan 2015 #139

"Satire is a means ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #149

Outstanding post. Zorra Jan 2015 #153

Agreed. NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #155

Exactly. nt Zorra Jan 2015 #178

Ok. I'll bite. Modern day evangelical Christians are a circle jerk of hypocrisy riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #158

If the cartoon was meant ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #159

Jesus is getting fucked as well. riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #161

The actions of those ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #162

Exactly! Agreed! So you see what Charlie Hebdo did? riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #163

"Their satire is meant to inspire conversation." NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #169

Just as an fyi, I am Irish and no, I would never kill over that stereotype nt riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #172

And I am a Jew ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #174

Quit blaming the victim, Nance. LAGC Jan 2015 #184

I'm just saying, if you know your husband gets punchy when dinner isn't ready, DawgHouse Jan 2015 #157

I always like to refer people to dictionaries Dyedinthewoolliberal Jan 2015 #160

Exactly. MineralMan Jan 2015 #187

Thanks for your BPE... GReedDiamond Jan 2015 #173

Thanks. I'm nothing if not variable in post quality. MineralMan Jan 2015 #188

"A Modest Proposal" by Jonathan Swift is one of history's most outrageous examples. Mark Twain... Hekate Jan 2015 #180

Somewhere upthread, I mentioned Gulliver's Travels. MineralMan Jan 2015 #190

Fascinating thesis. MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #182

Thinking is always a good thing, certainly. MineralMan Jan 2015 #191

K&R.... daleanime Jan 2015 #201

nota bene: A Modest Proposal annabanana Jan 2015 #207