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Ms. Toad

(38,765 posts)

118. They were victims because individuals intent on promoting their own twisted version of Islam

Fri Jan 9, 2015, 10:45 AM

Jan 2015

decided to murder them (and many others they perceive as not

The "I am Charlie Hebdo" meme, reposting the pictures which, in most instances, were offensive merely for the sake of being offensive, and calls from sources like the New York Times to respond to the murders by emulating the behavior of the victims, valorizes the victims. It assumes that because murder was used to police gratuitously offensive speech that our response must be to use gratuitously offensive speech to police murder.

If someone brutally murders a member of the Westboro Baptist Church in response to the hateful messages they convey while picketing funerals, I could condemn the murder without proclaiming "I am Westboro Baptist Church," or reposting their hateful sayings in opinion pieces I write or on my facebook pages. I find absolutely nothing they are doing valid. Their legal right, perhaps, but still offensive and worthy of condemnation. But - if someone did murder one of them, I can pretty much guarantee that almost no one on DU would do anything other than dance with glee, and talk about how they got what they deserved. Certainly there would be no one proclaiming, "I am Westboro Baptist Church."

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We should not kill people for speech. But I am not Charlie Hebdo. [View all] Ms. Toad Jan 2015 OP

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Jan 2015 #1

What was the stated reason for the alert? cyberswede Jan 2015 #5

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Jan 2015 #7

Well, that was illuminating. Not. cyberswede Jan 2015 #13

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Jan 2015 #15

I hope you realize my smiley was directed at the alert & empty juror comments. cyberswede Jan 2015 #19

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Jan 2015 #39

I get the gist of your experiment post, KMOD Jan 2015 #33

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Jan 2015 #40

hypocrisy on freedom of speech KMOD Jan 2015 #49

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Jan 2015 #59

it's a magazine that only has 30,000 subscribers, so who do you think is funding it? NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #77

Oh sure, there's no doubt that if big money KMOD Jan 2015 #79

That's not the only reason big money funds media. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #81

I absolutely agree with you. KMOD Jan 2015 #85

If the message is foolish, the people won't buy it? are you sure? i think there are NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #87

Well, obviously it sells with some. KMOD Jan 2015 #88

are christian fundamentalists a majority in the US? NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #89

No. KMOD Jan 2015 #97

my point exactly NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #103

I'm sorry, I'm not exactly following your point. KMOD Jan 2015 #142

The actual title of the piece is 'Killing in Egypt". "The Koran is shit" is referring to the murder of Luminous Animal Jan 2015 #24

No, I didn't buy into any outrage... cyberswede Jan 2015 #35

Sorry! Misread it! Thanks, so much, for the clarification. Luminous Animal Jan 2015 #36

yes, and it is neither funny nor enlightening in any way reorg Jan 2015 #61

It is provocative and even mean-spirited, and I think its creators would be the first to agree. nomorenomore08 Jan 2015 #76

+1 Go Vols Jan 2015 #138

I condemn these cold blooded murders and support their right to publish the cartoons. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #2

Then you are misinformed Albertoo Jan 2015 #3

I take serious issue with that as well. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #4

Your point is spot on, but sadly you won't get a response from the OP cleanhippie Jan 2015 #22

And they were racist. The ones aimed at Blacks eg, would never have been published sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #128

I already proved to you no Charlie Hebdo cartoon was ever racist Albertoo Jan 2015 #129

Would some of those cartoons have been published here without outrage? sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #132

What does it matter if there was outrage? Glengoolie Jan 2015 #154

Do you think then that it was wrong to fire Imus for his remarks? Should we allow any kind of speech sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #155

Depends on who you mean when you say "we" SickOfTheOnePct Jan 2015 #166

Exactly... Glengoolie Jan 2015 #192

I stand with freedom of speech against the armed psychopaths who would rip it from us. Kurska Jan 2015 #6

Je Suis Charlie. 840high Jan 2015 #51

"I am against murderous religious bigots, BUT ...." Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #8

My opposition to those who attacked Charlie Hebbdo is unqualified. Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #9

No you qualified it. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #10

I'm not qualifying my response to a brutal massacre Kurska Jan 2015 #12

Some of the cartoons I've seen were really nasty and disgusting... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #98

It is a response to all of the posts which insist Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #14

Relating the cartoonist/writers to the KKK? RobertEarl Jan 2015 #25

It is an analogy to make a point. Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #38

Please post any racist quote by Charlie Hebdo. riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #44

Not all offensive behavior is satire. Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #53

So you can't. riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #57

Has anyone said that YOU have to identify with Charlie Hebdo? Or have they said THEY do? Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #67

There's a few folk saying if you don't then yr justifying the murders... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #102

Totally. Telling someone to fuck right the hell off is a totally reasonable, free-speech response. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #104

I used to love the Onion... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #106

Oh, wow. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #109

Warren, there was a jury hide earlier of a post Denzil_DC Jan 2015 #143

here, hidden and now flagged for review. And thank you for your post. you are not alone. uppityperson Jan 2015 #144

Woah. Denzil_DC Jan 2015 #145

The fact that a jury hid it, tells you something right there. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #149

What does it tell me? Denzil_DC Jan 2015 #152

It "tells you" that you are incorrect in characterizing that particular sentiment as a "whole Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #163

"It 'tells you' that you are incorrect in characterizing that particular sentiment as a 'whole Denzil_DC Jan 2015 #164

"I've seen you add considerably to that undercurrent" --Oh, you have, have you? Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #169

which is quite clear, but expect continued wilfull misunderstanding. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #82

"You've just equated satire to murder." cyberswede Jan 2015 #16

Thank you! hrmjustin Jan 2015 #29

Well done, cs Cha Jan 2015 #74

Good reply, cyberswede. nt brer cat Jan 2015 #75

it's a pretty basic concept, but seems quite beyond the understanding of some posters. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #84

Exactly. Blue_In_AK Jan 2015 #167

So one has to change their views about the material? kcr Jan 2015 #157

The material is irrelevant. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #158

Wow moment here kcr Jan 2015 #159

I agree with you that we can condemn these murders but not associate ourselves with these cartoons hrmjustin Jan 2015 #11

...but why would we want to? brooklynite Jan 2015 #20

They may dish it out equally but I don't have to care for it. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #21

Indeed you don't... brooklynite Jan 2015 #30

I admire their courage and they did nothing to deserve death or physical harm. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #32

Dishing it out equally is not necessarily equal treatment starroute Jan 2015 #41

I disagree that the Muslim faith is "vulnerable" brooklynite Jan 2015 #46

Your nuance is mostly wasted here, I'm afraid. But please consider me an admirer. - nt KingCharlemagne Jan 2015 #56

Thank you. n/t Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #62

+100. and there's also the issue, in these times, of hidden players and agendas. since NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #86

Please point out, exactly, what was offensive. cleanhippie Jan 2015 #23

... cwydro Jan 2015 #37

Tiny font: killing is bad mkay BUT IF PEOPLE WOLD JUST ACQUIESCE TO THE DEMANDS OF FUNDAMENTALISTS Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #65

Too bad there is no longer an Unrecc, because I would Unrecc your OP. MicaelS Jan 2015 #17

You're entitled to your opinion, but you might ask yourself, Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #31

+100... (political messaging, jim...) NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #90

If only the KKK had been guilty of nothing more than simple offensive satire. RedCappedBandit Jan 2015 #114

So substitute the Westboro Baptist Church Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #119

That's a fair enough point and I respect that perspective. RedCappedBandit Jan 2015 #124

Hint: they're equal opportunity offenders... brooklynite Jan 2015 #18

I think that's exactly what she's saying. cleanhippie Jan 2015 #27

Not really CrawlingChaos Jan 2015 #28

Why would it matter, don't you think this is a false flag Kurska Jan 2015 #34

Oh nice try CrawlingChaos Jan 2015 #42

So do you believe it was a false flag? Do you consider that possibility realistic? n/t Kurska Jan 2015 #43

Did you read my posted links? Particularly the first one? CrawlingChaos Jan 2015 #47

"All I will confidently say is that I believe there is more to the story that is not being widely Kurska Jan 2015 #48

So no substantive rebuttal then CrawlingChaos Jan 2015 #52

No real answer Kurska Jan 2015 #60

i think there's more to the story too. there always is. you sure are confident that NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #91

Of course there is more, what we're referencing is a thread that presented a narrative that way Kurska Jan 2015 #95

if i were doing a bombing, i wouldn't bring my ID. and if I did bring my ID, I wouldn't NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #96

911 truther and massacre truther in the same post Kurska Jan 2015 #112

remarkably stupid terrorists and thanks for the personal attack; just what i'd expect NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #134

"remarkably stupid terrorists" EX500rider Jan 2015 #146

I'm expecting average intelligence. It's odd so many terrorists bring their passports and NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #147

You expect avg intelligence from someone willing to blow themselves up and.. EX500rider Jan 2015 #148

I think people who are taken in by propaganda are kind of stupid too. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #151

From reports, it sounded like they sought martyrdom. Denzil_DC Jan 2015 #156

are you a regular reader of Charlie Hebdo? reorg Jan 2015 #54

No. I'm saying that I do not unite with or support Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #63

And talk of "occasion" and "stoking the embers"- call it what it is. Blaming the victim. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #66

I haven't seen any Charlie Hebdo cartoons that are racist or hate speech. Vattel Jan 2015 #26

You must not have looked at very many. They depicted a black French official as a monkey, ffs. LeftyMom Jan 2015 #55

Thank you. n/t Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #58

Sounds like they were trying to pass off some ugly, racist hate speech as "satire". n/t whathehell Jan 2015 #70

that so many democrats here declare themselves to be one with 'charlie' makes one wonder. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #92

You are right. I hadn't looked at very many. And the ones you mention are obviously racist. Vattel Jan 2015 #115

How about this one? CrawlingChaos Jan 2015 #93

"don't touch our welfare check!" -- because 'satire' directed against minorities and the poor NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #94

That's not where the satire is directed melman Jan 2015 #116

why don't you enlighten me; though i already know what you're going to say NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #133

I see you haven't received an answer yet. Denzil_DC Jan 2015 #181

Thanks for posting this! swilton Jan 2015 #45

all these letters,words, & sentences are violating my religious beliefs. please stop immediately n msongs Jan 2015 #50

bullying of oppressed groups- like people who get shot for publishing a cartoon? Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #64

Like I basically said up above, there's no sensible or valid equivalency between the two. nomorenomore08 Jan 2015 #78

Indeed. If people want to talk about what sorts of things said, are or or aren't offensive Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #83

I do too. It trivializes a horrific, and indeed terroristic, act. n/t nomorenomore08 Jan 2015 #100

I agree with that. I have seen some of the cartoons, some aimed at Blacks, others at Muslims, sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #68

Agreed. Criticizing the cartoons is NOT condoning the murders. n/t whathehell Jan 2015 #72

You are correct. The cartoon on the girls kidnapped by Boko Haram was disgusting. kelliekat44 Jan 2015 #111

See post 181 GoneOffShore Jan 2015 #195

I agree, and feel the same way. n/t whathehell Jan 2015 #69

Sabrina, leftymum, whatthehell, Charlie Hebdo has never been accused of racism Albertoo Jan 2015 #71

Really? Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #161

Really Albertoo Jan 2015 #197

You didn't say they weren't racist - you said they had never been accused of racism. Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #198

Post removed Post removed Jan 2015 #199

I agree, Ms. Toad brer cat Jan 2015 #73

Thank you. Fawke Em Jan 2015 #80

knr Douglas Carpenter Jan 2015 #99

Je suis Charlie. nt longship Jan 2015 #101

I condemn rape, but she shouldn't have worn a short skirt. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #105

Not analagous to what I said. Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #113

Perfect analogy to this thread. nt Albertoo Jan 2015 #117

I am - concede to this demand, and when you say that it's wrong to stone homosexuals Yo_Mama Jan 2015 #107

They have every right to publish their cartoons, 6000eliot Jan 2015 #108

Correct - Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #122

I was agreeing with your post. 6000eliot Jan 2015 #123

"valorising victims" = oxymoron joshcryer Jan 2015 #110

They were victims because individuals intent on promoting their own twisted version of Islam Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #118

Fair enough. joshcryer Jan 2015 #121

How about if the South Park creators were murdered? oberliner Jan 2015 #126

I don't know enough about the content of South Park Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #130

I don't agree with comparing Westboro Baptist Church to Charlie Hedbo oberliner Jan 2015 #131

If you can't say the same about the Westboro Baptist Church Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #135

Westboro Baptist Church isn't a group of satirical cartoonists oberliner Jan 2015 #137

A group of individuals were attacked and killed for their speech. Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #139

"They happened to be cartoonists" oberliner Jan 2015 #141

At least we know where you stand. Taitertots Jan 2015 #120

Please point out where I opposed freedom of speech. Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #140

You can finesse it all you want, but you're still blaming the victims. Paladin Jan 2015 #125

Please point out where I said Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #136

Disliking or disagreeing with media does not mean it is racist. alarimer Jan 2015 #127

If you're not Charlie Hebdo Hutzpa Jan 2015 #150

Rather ironic if the whole point of the "I am Charlie Hebdo" meme Blue_In_AK Jan 2015 #168

You probably fail at comprehension Hutzpa Jan 2015 #171

My comprehension is fine, thank you. Blue_In_AK Jan 2015 #172

My reasoning behind that statement is simple Hutzpa Jan 2015 #174

Unless I'm reading you wrong, Blue_In_AK Jan 2015 #176

Not racist and not 'islamaphoic' but they certainly are accurate... Glengoolie Jan 2015 #153

K&R very well said azurnoir Jan 2015 #160

Thanks. Not my words, Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #162

I am not them, either. Blue_In_AK Jan 2015 #165

Which are the ones you condone and which are the ones you don't? oberliner Jan 2015 #173

I probably should have bookmarked the ones I saw yesterday Blue_In_AK Jan 2015 #175

Thanks for sharing that oberliner Jan 2015 #177

Thank you. Blue_In_AK Jan 2015 #178

My view on the subject oberliner Jan 2015 #179

I see both sides to this issue, as do you. Blue_In_AK Jan 2015 #180

I don't think you're humor impaired, I just think you aren't French riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #194

Thank you, Rider. Blue_In_AK Jan 2015 #196

I agree with this OP. NaturalHigh Jan 2015 #170

The point isn't what offends, or what disgusts, or what you just don't cotton to. NOT THE POINT. WinkyDink Jan 2015 #187

I get that. Chill. NaturalHigh Jan 2015 #193

See my avatar. GoneOffShore Jan 2015 #182

Opinions are neither right nor wrong. Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #183

Not quite true. Some people are of the opinion that the world is flat. WinkyDink Jan 2015 #189

Fact is capable of objective verification. Opinion is not. Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #190

Exactly. And doesn't quite "get" what freedom of speech and of the press means. WinkyDink Jan 2015 #188

But. Iggo Jan 2015 #184

"But" is a response to the meme, Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #185

Post removed Post removed Jan 2015 #200

"you�re not standing up for freedom of speech. You�re valorising hate speech and bullying of WinkyDink Jan 2015 #186

There are no absolutes. There never have been. randome Jan 2015 #191