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karynnj

(60,735 posts)

122. Qaddafi threatened to kill everyone in the city "like rats" before ANY foreign power intervened

Fri Jan 9, 2015, 12:13 PM

Jan 2015

I agree that it was very much in response to the actions and goals of the rebels.

The question is whether a government can threaten to bomb one of its own cities. This is where the comparisons to Rwanda come in. It is a very tricky area. Had the US coalition just taken away air power from Qaddafi - preventing him from taking that action - and done nothing else, would you have had a problem?

Then (as others mention), there were other heavy weapons - like tanks. What if the US coalition both used its no fly control -- AND demanded there be no tank movements. As they would then be the sole air power, they could make movement of tanks very costly in terms of lives and material by saying that they would bomb any moving tank. Would you then have a problem?

This is what I meant by the slow/subtle shift between preventing a massacre and changing the balance of power. Yet looking at the two questions - where I would have had no problem being for both - it does show the very slippery issues of entering a civil war. ( I strongly suspect that this has influenced Obama's position on Syria - where like Quaddafi, Assad has done awful things.)

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For all the cheerleaders who thought overthrowing Qaddafi was such a great idea [View all] eridani Jan 2015 OP

Utter chaos and dissolution of any national identity was always a part of the plan for Iraq, Libya, kelliekat44 Jan 2015 #1

The moron who thought this up was promoted to UN Ambassador AngryAmish Jan 2015 #2

The moron who thought this up may be promoted to President leveymg Jan 2015 #62

It was Neocon mission accomplished...nt Jesus Malverde Jan 2015 #78

The point is permanent intra-Islamic warfare. The result is blowback leveymg Jan 2015 #87

Qaddafi was in the midst of massacring his own people from the air. True Blue Door Jan 2015 #3

FFS malaise Jan 2015 #5

Yes, actually we are. Because we stopped this one. True Blue Door Jan 2015 #6

Yep like the million Iraqis malaise Jan 2015 #9

Post removed Post removed Jan 2015 #10

ROFL malaise Jan 2015 #15

..... Lochloosa Jan 2015 #17

He says while he cuts and pastes anti-American bullshit from years ago. True Blue Door Jan 2015 #69

Par for the course Desert805 Jan 2015 #141

Malaise, a Republican? If so, he or she has fooled me for years! karynnj Jan 2015 #66

She...and don't forget malaise Jan 2015 #71

You aren't a troll but your attempt to drag Iraq into the argument is a FAIL. KittyWampus Jan 2015 #79

Iraq was in the OP, & its certainly relevant to the general argument. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #99

She -- and I will remember karynnj Jan 2015 #90

The Republicans were playing their part in the game, that's all. Most of them sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #110

^^^ This ^^^ tblue Jan 2015 #124

You know what's really sad malaise Jan 2015 #129

+1.000.000 NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #131

who is in a position to discuss human rights ? JI7 Jan 2015 #58

Us. I'd like to get started on that. True Blue Door Jan 2015 #70

There was no 'air massacre of his own people' by khaddafi. that's the right wing NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #97

He said that he would do that -- should we have waited until it actually happened? karynnj Jan 2015 #126

From the same site linked in the op. NCTraveler Jan 2015 #56

Link please? MattSh Jan 2015 #12

What claim are you asking be cited? True Blue Door Jan 2015 #14

Actually, the FIRST call to action was Just to prevent the massacre karynnj Jan 2015 #65

Except we didn't cause the regime change. jeff47 Jan 2015 #74

I would love to believe you, but I read the accounts of what we were doing while they happened karynnj Jan 2015 #86

How, exactly, did we "take an offensive position against Gaddafi"? jeff47 Jan 2015 #98

I am not defending Qaddafi - he should have ended up at the Hague karynnj Jan 2015 #105

My point is we had that thumb on the scale from the beginning jeff47 Jan 2015 #116

I see your points karynnj Jan 2015 #123

The supposed 'massacre' was a response to interference by foreign powers and rebels. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #102

Qaddafi threatened to kill everyone in the city "like rats" before ANY foreign power intervened karynnj Jan 2015 #122

US generals planned to kill citizens in the streets as an anti-ussr measure. They can do NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #133

Non answer. Desert805 Jan 2015 #142

got a little list, have you? i noted a few things about you too, but i can't say them. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #143

you have the gall to talk about bullshit? NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #95

I blocked your mail. If you have a question, feel free to ask it publicly. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #101

That's what we were told. A whole lot of people, around the world, knew better. sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #103

The Global Disaster Capitalists "piggy-backed" on the legitimate.... bvar22 Jan 2015 #138

+1000 Blue_Tires Jan 2015 #135

Leave the dictators alone! oberliner Jan 2015 #4

or maybe not fuck around in parts of the world where we are ignorant AngryAmish Jan 2015 #7

So when people living under an oppressive dictatorship cry out for help.... oberliner Jan 2015 #11

Who died and left the USA the boss of the world? MattSh Jan 2015 #13

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh malaise Jan 2015 #16

That is a different question oberliner Jan 2015 #19

Not at the point of a gun zipplewrath Jan 2015 #125

No one. When people need help we all have a decision to make. pampango Jan 2015 #28

Very intelligent post. What is it doing in this thread? HERVEPA Jan 2015 #57

Thanks. n/t pampango Jan 2015 #80

Wait, are you saying we must not see the world in black and white? LordGlenconner Jan 2015 #88

"we all" don't make any decisions. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #104

Not for a national government but many want our government to act as a liberal individual might act pampango Jan 2015 #121

what we might want is irrelevant. our government doesn't do what we want for the NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #148

"Morality doesn't have a goddamn thing to do with any of it ..." It should. That's my point. pampango Jan 2015 #153

Saudi Arabia, under "S", on a long list reddread Jan 2015 #18

Agreed oberliner Jan 2015 #20

easier caused than prevented reddread Jan 2015 #22

Potentially admirable is not a core foreign policy driver I have the slightest interest in. TheKentuckian Jan 2015 #38

Rwanda is often used as the counter example of where "we" could have intervened karynnj Jan 2015 #82

Clinton says it was his biggest regret as POTUS oberliner Jan 2015 #89

I have read that karynnj Jan 2015 #93

that's the official storyline, yes. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #106

Yes. AngryAmish Jan 2015 #32

Our usual response is to install our own puppet dictator. Fuddnik Jan 2015 #40

You have to discriminate. bemildred Jan 2015 #68

Humanitarian aid doesn't always get to the people who need it oberliner Jan 2015 #91

Yeah, and it will be appropriated and misused, but you do what you can. bemildred Jan 2015 #100

Because if we don't no one else will? It's about time others stepped up to the plate... L0oniX Jan 2015 #96

+1. How many times has the US been criticized for supporting a dictator? treestar Jan 2015 #45

Sure like the Saudis, the Bahrainis the UAE, Jordan, morocco. Jesus Malverde Jan 2015 #84

Exactly oberliner Jan 2015 #94

+100. we have always loved dictatorial governments. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #107

Some countries sadly need a dictator Reter Jan 2015 #118

A lot of Libyans thought it was a good idea. pampango Jan 2015 #8

But not enough without massive NATO firepower. CJCRANE Jan 2015 #21

Yeah, it'd look like Syria right now. joshcryer Jan 2015 #24

Syria has had massive foreign intervention too. CJCRANE Jan 2015 #25

Not to any remotely similar extent. joshcryer Jan 2015 #29

My point stands that is not a "popular uprising" if they need outside support CJCRANE Jan 2015 #36

That's rather arbitrary. joshcryer Jan 2015 #39

It depends on your point of view. How do you know what is a popular uprising CJCRANE Jan 2015 #44

Only 2% are necessary to overthrow a government. joshcryer Jan 2015 #55

Not necessarily. Would you support a Tea Party uprising? CJCRANE Jan 2015 #72

So if 2% want overthrow and 98% don't or are apathetic, that's a popular uprising? NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #109

didn't the United StaTes get some outside help in getting JI7 Jan 2015 #42

Libya was already independent. When it comes to insurrection it depends on your point of view CJCRANE Jan 2015 #46

yeah. from my point of view I wouldn't call Libyan under gaddafi JI7 Jan 2015 #49

It was an independent country, IIRC the richest in Africa. CJCRANE Jan 2015 #53

That is why they changed the name from Freedom Fries JEB Jan 2015 #50

And France had to help us during the American Revolution mythology Jan 2015 #59

+100. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #108

With dictators controlling large, modern armies I am not sure that the definition of "popular" that pampango Jan 2015 #30

If it's popular enough, they will defect. CJCRANE Jan 2015 #37

Liberals should not give dictators a pass as long as his army and security forces remain loyal. pampango Jan 2015 #67

No, they will continue to protect their privileges. jeff47 Jan 2015 #81

The hatred for the Libyan people knows no bounds. joshcryer Jan 2015 #27

How about the genocide of black Libyans at the hands of our allies? Jesus Malverde Jan 2015 #85

Just the saudis, emiratis and kuwaities need distators. convenient that. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #111

Nope. joshcryer Jan 2015 #145

and the west props them all up, and has for a long time. authoritarian governments NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #146

That's what is said of Latin America. joshcryer Jan 2015 #154

The US propped up Latin American dictatorships for more than a century. And the NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #155

You pick the most pleasant scenario. joshcryer Jan 2015 #156

Pick an unpleasant one. Venezuela is all you got. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #157

1.7 million Libyans jamzrockz Jan 2015 #34

A No Fly Zone would not be warranted against a dictator on the basis of large crowds demonstrating pampango Jan 2015 #77

"These countries were targeted for war" and long ago and we knew it. PNAC, PNAC. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #112

thought this was interesting, the Occidental Petroleum seem to be comfy reddread Jan 2015 #23

Hillary smirked like a chimpanzee nilesobek Jan 2015 #26

Yup jamzrockz Jan 2015 #33

The ANC (African National Congress) nilesobek Jan 2015 #35

Do you have any evidence jamzrockz Jan 2015 #52

I'd have to look it up, I'm working 2 jobs nilesobek Jan 2015 #61

+1,000,000,000 and a lot of old, good information: polly7 Jan 2015 #41

yes, i remember that; it was disgusting. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #113

These argument ignore reality: Schema Thing Jan 2015 #31

Basically. joshcryer Jan 2015 #43

Why do scoff at the possibility of worse and on what actual basis? TheKentuckian Jan 2015 #51

Libya is NOT worse off at this point Schema Thing Jan 2015 #64

Rubbish jamzrockz Jan 2015 #76

Yes, Libya would be a fantastic place...as long as you liked the dictator. jeff47 Jan 2015 #92

I actually agree with you on some jamzrockz Jan 2015 #117

The problem is "help" was already given. jeff47 Jan 2015 #137

I would note that "propping up Gaddafi" was not an option then. Schema Thing Jan 2015 #128

in the past? we're propping up dictators right now. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #132

Dude, you are ignoring reality Schema Thing Jan 2015 #127

"I rather be free (in Syria) than comfortable (in Libya)" joshcryer Jan 2015 #144

+100 NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #115

I recall another DU faction treestar Jan 2015 #47

Cameron and Hollande led on pushing for the intervention. CJCRANE Jan 2015 #48

We support some dictators, attack others. JEB Jan 2015 #54

Must watch for anyone who wants to understand jamzrockz Jan 2015 #60

By the same logic, those opposed to intervention in other countries mythology Jan 2015 #63

You cannot be blamed for anything jamzrockz Jan 2015 #73

unless the person intervening paid the guy who's doing the beating NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #119

du rec Jesus Malverde Jan 2015 #75

reccing this. KG Jan 2015 #83

Libya is made up of a combination of seperate provinces. Kaleva Jan 2015 #114

Hawaii didn't become a state until the 50s either. Not sure what your point is. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #120

Nothing ever works right unless the people that live in a given area do it The2ndWheel Jan 2015 #130

So do we blame wikileaks and Chelsea Manning for starting the Arab Spring? Calista241 Jan 2015 #134

we loved AQ then, and in Syria (heck, Israel's upping its support for Nusra), but only south of the MisterP Jan 2015 #136

Disastrous, huge mistake but keep angering people..it works out so well our foreign policy. n/t Jefferson23 Jan 2015 #139

A colleague in Niger drmeow Jan 2015 #140

wow. that sounds kind of apocalyptic. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #149

The quote was from the article drmeow Jan 2015 #158

So the country is fracturing; sometimes that happens bhikkhu Jan 2015 #147

setting Syria on fire. much worse decision.... quadrature Jan 2015 #150

Perhaps, but both are instances of fucking around with countries that we don't understand eridani Jan 2015 #151

exactly right. you wrote it better than I could ...nt quadrature Jan 2015 #152