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F4lconF16

(3,747 posts)
159. Cultures can and should be criticized.
Fri Jan 9, 2015, 02:21 PM
Jan 2015

In doing so, we may have to attack the religion itself. Yes, religions advance, but they rarely do so without large numbers of people raising awareness about their injustices.

The point is attack the issue, not the religion.

But the issue is part of the religion. The idea that the Catholic Church's homophobia is somehow separate from their other beliefs is wrong. Each idea, each belief, is part of a larger set of beliefs that defines the religion. In many cases, there are bigoted and hateful beliefs that are part of a religion's doctrine. When I criticize the Catholic Church for their homophobic practices, I am doing so in the hopes that their set of beliefs will change. However, I do criticize the church--not just homophobia. That's because the church continues to push their bigotry (and this is critical) as part of their religious doctrine. When the Church practices something I find morally repugnant, I will criticize the church--not just each individual idea.

This is not to say that we should attack religion in a manner that is hateful. In reference to the Charlie Hebdo criticism, while I think the points they made were good, I don't like the way they do it. They use stereotypes and caricatures of cultures and people that I think perpetuate ignorance and unbased hatred. (Standard disclaimer, because it's necessary now: they had every right to say it, I do not blame them in any way for the shooting. They are not responsible for stupid people doing terrible things because of their stupidity).

People are born into and raised in a religion, and it is part of their culture. It is not merely the beliefs about God and the religious doctrines.

This makes no difference whatsoever in regards to criticizing religion. I don't care how ingrained your belief is; if it's bigoted, I will attack. Full stop.

It does, however, mean that it's necessary to criticize it in such a way that the audience will listen. As pretty much any atheist will tell you, it's very challenging to talk with a believer about their beliefs. Because it's so ingrained, it is hard to communicate with them without angering them. When you tell someone that you think the foundation of their core beliefs about the world are not only wrong, but non-existent and harmful, they tend to shut you off, no matter how politely you phrase it. This is why, in one-on-one conversations with people who are my friends and open to new ideas, I have a discussion. When I discuss religion in a general sense, I attack, because people refuse to listen when you're polite. I am a full advocate for "in your face atheism", just as I am for "in your face homosexuality" or massive protests that shut down highways in response to police brutality and overt racism. Yeah, these tactics piss some people off. But they're often the only way to get people to listen.

Every culture has a religion. Most of them were sexist, homophobic, as society generally was. They may be slower to progress, but they eventually do.

That's nice for the religions and their believers. Unfortunately for the rest of us in the meantime, they can and do cause great amounts of harm. We should fight them, loudly and hard, whenever they are injust and bigoted.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

I do not condone killing ... [View all] 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 OP
The answer is more free speech and protest. CJCRANE Jan 2015 #1
Yes. Jackpine Radical Jan 2015 #3
The way to fight offensive speech is with more speech. eom MohRokTah Jan 2015 #2
Post removed Post removed Jan 2015 #4
Oh yes, by all means, let's have more hate CrawlingChaos Jan 2015 #21
If you have a different idea of what constitutes stupidity, by all means explain it. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #51
Stupidity is buying into the demonization of Muslims CrawlingChaos Jan 2015 #58
Your talking points are like a square tire, in reference to "the big picture." demosincebirth Jan 2015 #61
Could you possibly be more cryptic? CrawlingChaos Jan 2015 #64
So we disagree with those things treestar Jan 2015 #146
Cultures can and should be criticized. F4lconF16 Jan 2015 #159
We can, but we shouldn't. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #173
Alrighty then. rug Jan 2015 #45
And the purpose of ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #48
People who do the right thing because they're afraid of burning in hell are stupid. QuestionableC Jan 2015 #50
You're assuming that people ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #62
If people are irrational in one area phil89 Jan 2015 #77
You are making the assumption ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #79
Did it occur to you that sometimes people who want to help others are attracted to sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #130
I think you misunderstood what the poster was saying. F4lconF16 Jan 2015 #160
Well, here's the thing. I get very nervous when I see people making statements about sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #164
Conversely, many liberal ideas are opposed by many religions* Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #52
I understand your point. NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #67
Thank you, Nance. brer cat Jan 2015 #69
"No True Scotsman" fallacy. F4lconF16 Jan 2015 #153
Ironically ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #188
Why does there need to be a purpose? Codeine Jan 2015 #72
Yes! So true!! bravenak Jan 2015 #76
My query was about the purpose ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #88
Except not just religion was denigrated...whole races and classes of human beings with very little kelliekat44 Jan 2015 #96
You have every right to be offended/Insulted, but you do NOT HAVE THE RIGHT to be PREVENTED bobalew Jan 2015 #5
Not asking the government to censor the deliberate denigration of others by some person/organization kelly1mm Jan 2015 #6
You don't have to tolerate it. Lobo27 Jan 2015 #7
Witty barbs at a hundred paces. CJCRANE Jan 2015 #8
If only! SomethingFishy Jan 2015 #16
How appropriate, you fight ... dawg Jan 2015 #124
I don't know if that will work anymore. Fox and RW radio have brainwashed people into believing that Dark n Stormy Knight Jan 2015 #109
Satire can be dangerous. Freedom of speech comes with risks. Rex Jan 2015 #9
It does come with risks. Lobo27 Jan 2015 #10
And each religion has fundamentalists, and the vast majority of christians might not start randys1 Jan 2015 #165
Yes, in this country. Am I'm glad. Inkfreak Jan 2015 #11
"the deliberate denigration of others because you do not agree with their expression of faith." oberliner Jan 2015 #12
Yes ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #84
Post removed Post removed Jan 2015 #94
No, neither my feeling {sic}, nor my butt was hurt ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #105
I do Boudica the Lyoness Jan 2015 #155
Good for you ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #156
Yes I do. Boudica the Lyoness Jan 2015 #161
Yeah ... right. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #162
Ignoring the poster you were responding to F4lconF16 Jan 2015 #166
Yes, thank you. Boudica the Lyoness Jan 2015 #170
I'm glad you've done so well. F4lconF16 Jan 2015 #171
Well put ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #176
Seems like a slippery slope to me oberliner Jan 2015 #102
Yes, self-censorshipin the name of civility and tolerance ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #108
Would that include not making fun of Republicans? oberliner Jan 2015 #110
I'm re-thinking that as well ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #111
Fair enough oberliner Jan 2015 #114
Whu in the world should religion be different?? HERVEPA Jan 2015 #152
Why should religion be different? F4lconF16 Jan 2015 #167
So would you then agree that all religions should not be able to denigrate gay people? Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #13
I completely agree that no religion should denigrate anyone ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #14
You know... TexasMommaWithAHat Jan 2015 #44
Some religions are based on denigrating others... Humanist_Activist Jan 2015 #101
I have no issue with satire aimed at "expressions of faith". Spider Jerusalem Jan 2015 #15
I'm working through this; but, ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #17
I feel like I should vomit Kurska Jan 2015 #19
So ... before, or immediately after, you vomit ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #22
People gunned down by machine guns for publishing cartoons should not "own the result" Kurska Jan 2015 #24
If you deliberately say something you know will offend me ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #31
Being offensive is not on the same level of murder Kurska Jan 2015 #34
So it does turn on the violence. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #39
When you respond to speech with violence, you lose any moral authority you had n/t Kurska Jan 2015 #83
Agreed. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #86
Let's turn this around... Luminous Animal Jan 2015 #36
So, it does turns on the violence. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #38
Of course. There are many ways to protest when you've felt denigrated other Luminous Animal Jan 2015 #40
More precisely, it turns on the infringement of rights. Jim Lane Jan 2015 #90
"It's sensible to criticize a robbery victim for not locking his door" F4lconF16 Jan 2015 #169
There's something in between victim-blaming and useful advice. Jim Lane Jan 2015 #182
The big difference between your examples F4lconF16 Jan 2015 #183
Nobody is saying that it was justified. Nobody on this board has said that it's justified. NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #132
If gay people were trying to murder the Phelpses, or black people were bombing Klan offices... Spider Jerusalem Jan 2015 #42
Seems to me you're 840high Jan 2015 #87
Absolutely agree with you OnePercentDem Jan 2015 #104
Much of what is said on DU really pisses off conservatives Fumesucker Jan 2015 #20
Good point, but ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #26
People do it all the time on DU Fumesucker Jan 2015 #30
And ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #37
Evidently not Fumesucker Jan 2015 #41
Sounds like blaming the victim. Spider Jerusalem Jan 2015 #23
Just come out and say it, for crying out loud. nt Dreamer Tatum Jan 2015 #27
So, you consider what the KKK thinks before speaking out, right? jeff47 Jan 2015 #47
I don't mock the klan. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #85
Arguing for equality is mocking the Klan. (nt) jeff47 Jan 2015 #125
No ... It's not ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #126
They don't see it that way... haikugal Jan 2015 #149
You are correct 1SBM, with rights come responsibilities. We must begin to accept this as a whole Dont call me Shirley Jan 2015 #54
"Speak and act in the ways of non-violence" like Charlie Hebdo did, you mean? Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #55
Yes, non-violence, like Dr King and Ghandi. Dont call me Shirley Jan 2015 #59
I disagree with you Marrah_G Jan 2015 #66
But the hateful and intolerant are usually pretty unreasonable about what offends them cemaphonic Jan 2015 #68
I have expressed views that agree with yours and been the target of insult myself. NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #92
And, this ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #137
If you don't like free speech, ignore it or battle it with more free speech. Brickbat Jan 2015 #18
K&R CrawlingChaos Jan 2015 #25
Yes, you certainly appear to. Dreamer Tatum Jan 2015 #28
Doesn't condone killing Kurska Jan 2015 #29
Yes, "own the results" pretty much sews it up. nt Dreamer Tatum Jan 2015 #32
Religion is a philosophy and adhering to that philosophy is not innate. Luminous Animal Jan 2015 #33
"does your free speech right mean I have to tolerate your intolerance?" cherokeeprogressive Jan 2015 #35
You "don't know how you come down" on the murders in Paris? Really? Nye Bevan Jan 2015 #43
Such righteous indignation whatchamacallit Jan 2015 #57
Your ignoring what I actually said ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #82
Yes, we got it, you aren't a fan of free speech, why don't you practice what you preach and.. Humanist_Activist Jan 2015 #91
I mostly stand with staunch defenders of free speech, but I understand your concern whatchamacallit Jan 2015 #46
No, you haven't misrepresented what I am saying ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #81
You teach your daughter well, 1Strong. sheshe2 Jan 2015 #184
Those saying I advocate/condone ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #185
But you do implicitly blame the victims, and that's nearly as bad. N.T. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #49
Yes, my free speech might piss you off. Yours might piss me off. riqster Jan 2015 #53
I'm in agreement but in France JustAnotherGen Jan 2015 #60
i haven't looked into it much but the limits seem to be about actual historical events and actual JI7 Jan 2015 #89
Go a step further JustAnotherGen Jan 2015 #95
Point, but the magazine knew the laws well and how to be in compliance. riqster Jan 2015 #112
In total agreement on that too JustAnotherGen Jan 2015 #116
A question to throw in the mix JustAnotherGen Jan 2015 #56
And, Oscars ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #134
Does it hinge on the level of reaction from the offended? ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jan 2015 #63
depends on what you mean by tolerate, you have a right to criticize with words, protest, and other JI7 Jan 2015 #65
Yes, free speech means precisely and exactly that. Codeine Jan 2015 #70
And I do not accept that the right to free speech Codeine Jan 2015 #71
Let's assume Charlie was awful DonCoquixote Jan 2015 #73
This is not even a close call to me. Silent3 Jan 2015 #74
You defend religious privilege... MellowDem Jan 2015 #75
If your life or your family was being threatened would you be willing to kill an attacker ... spin Jan 2015 #78
As I see it swilton Jan 2015 #80
Anti-Semitism is an entirely different matter one would for example never see a caricature of Moses Behind the Aegis Jan 2015 #97
+10000 JustAnotherGen Jan 2015 #131
And right there in your OP, you imply an equivalence between "offensive" speech, and murder. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #93
Some philosophies are more acceptable than others. Behind the Aegis Jan 2015 #98
Free speech means you have to accept that things you don't like will be said Lee-Lee Jan 2015 #99
"does your free speech right mean I have to tolerate your intolerance?" Behind the Aegis Jan 2015 #100
Let me help you out OnePercentDem Jan 2015 #103
The fact that you think giving offense weighs seriously against mass murder True Blue Door Jan 2015 #106
The Muslim world is going to take our insults and LIKE THEM, goddamnit! randome Jan 2015 #107
I agree. HappyMe Jan 2015 #115
finally.... politicman Jan 2015 #117
Charlie Hebdo itself should be ridiculed for its tastelessness. randome Jan 2015 #119
So do you think Martin Scorsese should be ridiculed for his tastelessness? Paris, Oct 1988, Saint Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #120
The gunmen's motives were not what they claimed. They just found an excuse to kill. randome Jan 2015 #147
The people who firebombed the Last Temptation thought it was inflammatory and tasteless. Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #168
Of course everyone has their own definition of what is tasteless. randome Jan 2015 #174
I think you probably do condone the killing deep down somewhere. LexVegas Jan 2015 #113
I thank you for NOT speculating ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #121
I'm not seeing that in 1Strong's post . . . JustAnotherGen Jan 2015 #135
Well... haikugal Jan 2015 #157
I'm a UU - ten years now JustAnotherGen Jan 2015 #158
"does your free speech right mean I have to tolerate your intolerance?" NCTraveler Jan 2015 #118
Fair enough. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #122
I hear you, but you cannot kill people just because you are offended. bemildred Jan 2015 #123
Nobody is saying that. Nobody on this board has said that it's justified. NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #127
Thanks for clearing that up. nt bemildred Jan 2015 #128
+100 JustAnotherGen Jan 2015 #136
What do you think I meant when I wrote ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #138
I think you meant that you don't condone the killing. bemildred Jan 2015 #143
What do you mean by "tolerate"? RedCappedBandit Jan 2015 #129
So you are "okay" with ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #140
If by "okay with" RedCappedBandit Jan 2015 #141
that cover was over the line in ugly, imo. the issue of freedom of speech, allows me, and society seabeyond Jan 2015 #133
I didn't see that ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #142
the long time duer was not you. this is the jury i sat on. seabeyond Jan 2015 #144
Amen to it all JustAnotherGen Jan 2015 #148
It means you don't have a right to kill someone because he has disrespected your or your idol./NT DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2015 #139
I'd sympathize with them had they opposed it by more speech. treestar Jan 2015 #145
Yes, picketing the outside of the place is the answer, not killing. When I worked near ARAMCO, which freshwest Jan 2015 #187
In a Word RobinA Jan 2015 #150
it's coming to a point of survival samsingh Jan 2015 #151
Shit, that's practically the very definition of membership in the Middle East. randome Jan 2015 #154
"Maybe someday they'll grow up"? F4lconF16 Jan 2015 #186
My free speech right and your beliefs are the intersection we are talking about, and it is randys1 Jan 2015 #163
Well put ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #175
It is an issue that seems to hit real close to home for many people, and I have one other randys1 Jan 2015 #177
True ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #178
Do you know who Mark Thompson is, Sirius Radio? randys1 Jan 2015 #179
Don't have Sirius. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #180
People can and should have the right to engage in most any speech they want BainsBane Jan 2015 #172
Are you conflating deliberate denigration with broadcasting controversial ideas? LiberalAndProud Jan 2015 #181
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