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Bluenorthwest

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87. So if it is not about religion, it is also not about 'offending' religion and thus those attacking

Sat Jan 10, 2015, 03:21 PM

Jan 2015

the cartoonists as being religiously provocative are incorrect. It can't be both 'not about religion' and also about 'the offensive way religious figures were presented'. So people need to pick one.

Personally, I think religion is an element, just as it was when Christians fire bombed Paris theaters over Last Temptation of Christ. When extremist Christians set people on fire because they were offended at a depiction of Christ, that was in fact about religion. That does not mean 'all Christians' or that those who did it were 'real Christians' but it does mean they did it for religiously presented reasons and acted in the name of their religion. The choice of targets, the reason for the attacks, religious in nature. What do you think it was about, if not Christian religious extremism? Perhaps they just hated Willem Dafoe?

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This message was self-deleted by its author [View all] KMOD Jan 2015 OP

"about the leaders wanting power" applies to a lot of what's going on in the world today. NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #1

I really wish I could post the entire article here KMOD Jan 2015 #20

So let me get this straight... PCIntern Jan 2015 #2

You are missing the point. The terrorists are not Muslim just because they say they are. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #4

Actually, by definition, they are oberliner Jan 2015 #7

That is massive deflection. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #9

It is a basic fact oberliner Jan 2015 #35

Please proceed.......the very definition of a Muslim is saying you are one....dig deeper. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #37

Have you heard of the six articles of faith? oberliner Jan 2015 #59

dig deeper. AlbertCat Jan 2015 #79

What the article is saying is it's like saying one is a Born Again Christian during a rampage. Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2015 #75

Understood oberliner Jan 2015 #77

We have idiots here claiming to worship the Founders and the Constitution.... Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2015 #100

If a crazy person kills because he says a Beatles song played backwards told him to do it GoneFishin Jan 2015 #160

Right, like when they claimed Marilyn Manson was responsible for Columbine.... Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2015 #172

Yes---they are. Were they excommunicated? Cast out? msanthrope Jan 2015 #8

Apparently if you just say "I am an alien from a different planet" that makes you obviously an alien from Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #12

lol, right. But, tell me this, Fred... how are the actions of these killers so different than those PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #16

I am not into strawmen analysis. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #17

It's the same fucked up ideology and you know it. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #21

Well, don't fault me that Islam and Christianity are self-proclaimed religions. I didn't make up msanthrope Jan 2015 #19

Well so is my alien race, self-proclaiming so it must be true. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #26

Ahem--race is immutable. Religion is not. Apples and oranges. nt msanthrope Jan 2015 #27

actually race is merely a social construct and absolutely NOT immutable. KittyWampus Jan 2015 #121

An alien would be a non-human species. We're talking about belief systems, not biology. arcane1 Jan 2015 #64

yes, yes they are Marrah_G Jan 2015 #117

The KKK are Christian because they say they are? The Westboro Church members...Christians? Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #140

Yes, of course Westboro Baptists are Christians muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #147

That was very informative of your position. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #148

You admitted in #145 that this is about religion muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #149

The KKK and Westboro are true Christians, as you insist, I get it. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #150

Yes, the KKK and Westboro are Christians. Marrah_G Jan 2015 #165

Since it's all made up fantasy.... Adrahil Jan 2015 #170

The No True Scotsman Defense is often employed by those who refuse to embrace just how much msanthrope Jan 2015 #6

The No False Scotsman argument is used to insist the actions of one or a few represent the actions of all. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #10

Except...no one's claiming that. What I see is people trying to deny the Muslim faith of the msanthrope Jan 2015 #13

Do you think the KKK is Christian? Why would anyone NOT deny their Christian faith? Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #15

Yes--because Christanity is self-proclaimed. nt msanthrope Jan 2015 #18

One poster here vehemently insists you can, only for some religions though, of course. Just Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #22

Yes--they are Christians because they say so. Take it up with Martin Luther. nt msanthrope Jan 2015 #24

Yes, I am sure MLK would worship with the self proclaiming Christians of the KKK.... Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #29

You are only off by about 500 years, give or take....nt msanthrope Jan 2015 #31

ms - I believe is writing about this man JustAnotherGen Jan 2015 #32

And my point is diluted, how? What true Christian would worship with the false asshats of the Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #33

A true Christian JustAnotherGen Jan 2015 #44

"what true muslim" --- you've just demonstrated the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy to a 'T'. X_Digger Jan 2015 #48

ML (i.e., the guy who proclaimed the 95 Theses) is NOT MLK. nt tblue37 Jan 2015 #122

there is no reason to deny their christian faith. The KKK is explicitly christian. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #102

Whereas Christianity is unified and has no sects or divisions...got it. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #103

where the fuck did I say that Fred? Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #104

To drum the KKK and all of its followers out of Christianity is dishonest, but if they were Muslims, Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #105

wtf Fred. You are just making shit up. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #106

that was weird, it was the total opposite of what you said JI7 Jan 2015 #120

Not as wierd as some folks not getting obvious sarcasm. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #141

Of course Christianity also has many sects and divisions, which is why Christian Dominionists, tblue37 Jan 2015 #124

Those are not sects....The KKK is not a sect, they are a cult...apparently Christians who murder Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #142

No--I specifically said they do NOT represent all, just as the terrorists do NOT tblue37 Jan 2015 #171

Bingo valerief Jan 2015 #30

Bongo. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #34

this. m-lekktor Jan 2015 #57

It's obvious they targeted KMOD Jan 2015 #23

What would you call the retaliation attacks on Muslims in France since the sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #50

Religion really had nothing to do with it. jeff47 Jan 2015 #52

Good post, thank you for writing that all out. These attacks also were not just about images in a uppityperson Jan 2015 #61

wonderful post jeff47 KMOD Jan 2015 #118

Religion is a tool... sendero Jan 2015 #163

exactly. m-lekktor Jan 2015 #53

The KKK analogy is perfect. Do Christians all have to stand up and shout that these asshats do not Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #3

If a KKK publication were attacked, we'd all be saying "I am the KKK" I gues jberryhill Jan 2015 #86

Good analogy. And would any one don the KKK white robes and hood in unity with free speech? Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #101

"these barbaric acts are in no way related to Islam." oberliner Jan 2015 #5

In no logical way......if you abandon logic you are correct. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #11

The objection to the cartoons has nothing to do with Islam? oberliner Jan 2015 #14

No. They have to do with power. jeff47 Jan 2015 #65

Not sure I can agree with that oberliner Jan 2015 #74

If it was about religion, they'd be directed at Iran. jeff47 Jan 2015 #95

It is a crime punishable by death in Iran to defame the prophet oberliner Jan 2015 #96

The defamation was the bomb hat. Not drawing him at all. jeff47 Jan 2015 #97

Understood oberliner Jan 2015 #98

Al Qaeda is indeed fighting Shia Muslims in Yemen muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #137

We get it whatchamacallit Jan 2015 #158

Encourage secularism and moderation oberliner Jan 2015 #159

Juan Cole had a very interesting take on these Paris attacks -- that the attackers hoped to KingCharlemagne Jan 2015 #25

Use of figs leafs is common, a lot of folks just look at the fig leaf, deeper looks are avoided. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #39

Re-establishing the Caliphate strikes you as non-religious? oberliner Jan 2015 #40

It's sort of like the distinction the German Romantic Schiller KingCharlemagne Jan 2015 #46

Interesting oberliner Jan 2015 #47

I think yours is a fair statement, but I must also tell you that I don't claim enough expertise to KingCharlemagne Jan 2015 #55

I think Cole is projecting quite a bit oberliner Jan 2015 #60

That could be. But from what I've understood, at least one of the three claimed KingCharlemagne Jan 2015 #67

You may be right oberliner Jan 2015 #73

Thank you for that. KMOD Jan 2015 #41

'the re-establishment of the Caliphate, that ambition strikes me as largely secular' freshwest Jan 2015 #45

I agree, the newspaper images were only the excuse. uppityperson Jan 2015 #62

The KKK is not a religion. kiva Jan 2015 #28

ISIS is not a religion. uppityperson Jan 2015 #63

I can see why you believe that, kiva Jan 2015 #81

Ahh, this again. Religion/god/s must be kept in an impenetrable protective bubble at all times, Arugula Latte Jan 2015 #36

The criteria for criticism is selective. Some religions have a bigger bubble than others. Throd Jan 2015 #43

It's about religion for THEM B2G Jan 2015 #38

Religion is steeped in everything the KKK does, lots of terrorist groups, what is your point? Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #42

I get it now. Lobo27 Jan 2015 #49

Is it about religion, or is it about power? KMOD Jan 2015 #56

No they were not recruiting, but weren't they taking revenge for Lobo27 Jan 2015 #58

That was certainly their excuse, at least. KMOD Jan 2015 #93

Christians SHOULD have been required to explain the burning crosses. RandySF Jan 2015 #51

Thank you KMOD, very good article and wouldn't that be nice uppityperson Jan 2015 #54

religion's a dimension to life, intersecting with the others, not a superstate MisterP Jan 2015 #66

Most of the arguments on DU which claim the attacks were about how offensive the cartoons were Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #68

You bring up some very good points. KMOD Jan 2015 #99

We can only do what we are able to do. It is time for the mainstream, moderate Muslims to world wide wally Jan 2015 #69

Here you go: bobclark86 Jan 2015 #70

YOU ARE WRONG KMOD ! Burf-_- Jan 2015 #71

Bingo! AlbertCat Jan 2015 #88

When is Bill Maher going to have Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on his show? Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2015 #72

has he ever been ? Burf-_- Jan 2015 #76

I agree! KMOD Jan 2015 #80

Actually he was heres the vid. I thought i had seen it before but i didnt recall. Burf-_- Jan 2015 #84

Thank you for that. KMOD Jan 2015 #92

Except they are about religion. AlbertCat Jan 2015 #78

except you are not wrong. Burf-_- Jan 2015 #82

So if it is not about religion, it is also not about 'offending' religion and thus those attacking Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #87

sorry bout that Burf-_- Jan 2015 #94

But you put your "not" in the wrong place. You might want to edit that. nt tblue37 Jan 2015 #129

They aren't human either AlbertCat Jan 2015 #83

Religion isn't even about religion. Adrahil Jan 2015 #85

Yes. That's why these arguments are so ridiculous. PassingFair Jan 2015 #168

not buying it.... mike_c Jan 2015 #89

Kareem is exactly right. rug Jan 2015 #90

Its about millions of disenfranchised individuals around the world project_bluebook Jan 2015 #91

Perhaps if they allowed women to be educated they would not be so vulnerable to "evil persuasion". PassingFair Jan 2015 #169

Let's see... longship Jan 2015 #107

There is some disagreement about (1). Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #108

Yes, and I've heard that, too. However... longship Jan 2015 #115

Oh I agree. I just think you could eliminate any objection to your first condition. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #153

I agree wholeheartedly, re finding fault, apologists. nt longship Jan 2015 #167

Surah 5:33 Burf-_- Jan 2015 #110

Who cares what religion that attackers think they are, it means absolutely nothing.... politicman Jan 2015 #109

Really ..... ? Burf-_- Jan 2015 #111

Muslims sure seem to have a lot of higher structure that determines their religion Fumesucker Jan 2015 #112

try this example.... politicman Jan 2015 #113

I live among a lot of stripmall storefront churches, I'm quite familiar with denomination shopping Fumesucker Jan 2015 #114

did the 2 paris attackwer not have choice in which flavor of Ilsam they followed..... politicman Jan 2015 #116

How do you know that hope is misguided? Fumesucker Jan 2015 #119

read what i actually worte... politicman Jan 2015 #123

I did read that Fumesucker Jan 2015 #125

but since they are all beliefs, how can you judge what is misguided ? it's all based on belief JI7 Jan 2015 #127

true, but... politicman Jan 2015 #133

as an Atheist let me tell you that we are respectful, and no true atheist would denigrate others JI7 Jan 2015 #128

i completely aaccept and agree with what you say. politicman Jan 2015 #130

i do condemn those who claim to be atheist when they complain about stupid shit like christmas trees JI7 Jan 2015 #132

you condemn cause you want to, what would you say if i said you are required to condemn every time politicman Jan 2015 #135

well, it is interesting that Atheists(or those who claim to be) are not doing these things as much JI7 Jan 2015 #136

No true aethiest...watch out, someone will spring the idiotic "no true Scotsman" baloney on you. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #143

It's good to know that someone is in charge of who is a true atheist and who is not Fumesucker Jan 2015 #152

Doesn't mean they all agree treestar Jan 2015 #161

This is what I was responding to.. Fumesucker Jan 2015 #164

In that area treestar Jan 2015 #166

Man, there are a LOT of True Scotsmen running around these days, aren't there. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #126

:) KMOD Jan 2015 #134

yes. the intellectual discourse on this topic is embarrassing here at DU. nt m-lekktor Jan 2015 #139

Get out the bagpipes, scotch and some more true Scotsman and let's have a logical fail party! Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #144

So what does it mean? treestar Jan 2015 #162

It's about power, not religion. If religion were to some how magically disappear from the liberal_at_heart Jan 2015 #131

The road that led from tough Paris estate to radical Yemen training muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #138

Religion, twisted and distorted as the Westobro Church twists and distorts Chrstianity is the truth. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #145

Personally, I find it false. muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #146

you are in the unsustainable pit of defining true religion. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #151

When did God select you as the arbiter of what religion really means? Fumesucker Jan 2015 #154

..... Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #155

That was my point Fumesucker Jan 2015 #156

um, yeah, they are.... KG Jan 2015 #157