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In reply to the discussion: We should not kill people for speech. But I am not Charlie Hebdo. [View all]Denzil_DC
(9,139 posts)181. I see you haven't received an answer yet.
And I get the feeling you're genuinely curious.
I've made some of my feelings about this whole isssue known elsewhere on this thread and others (condemn the murderers outright, not a fan of the depictions), but I did find this Quora discussion which may be food for thought:
http://www.quora.com/What-was-the-context-of-Charlie-Hebdos-cartoon-depicting-Boko-Haram-sex-slaves-as-welfare-queens
Here's one person there's explanation of that particular cartoon (the link has some background on others, too):
This cover is mixing two unrelated elements which made the news at about the same time:
- Boko Haram victims likely to end up sex slaves in Nigeria
- Decrease of French welfare allocations
In France, as in probably every country who has welfare allocations, some people criticize this system because some people might try to game it (e.g., "welfare queens" idea). Note that if we didn't had it there would probably be much more people complaining because the ones who really need it would end up in extreme poverty.
Charlie Hebdo is known for being left-wing attached and very controversial, and I think they wanted to parody people who criticize "welfare queens" by taking this point-of-view to the absurd, to show that immigrant women in France are more likely to be victims of patriarchy than evil manipulative profiteers.
And of course if we only stay on the first-degree approach, it's a terrible racist and absurd cover.
- Boko Haram victims likely to end up sex slaves in Nigeria
- Decrease of French welfare allocations
In France, as in probably every country who has welfare allocations, some people criticize this system because some people might try to game it (e.g., "welfare queens" idea). Note that if we didn't had it there would probably be much more people complaining because the ones who really need it would end up in extreme poverty.
Charlie Hebdo is known for being left-wing attached and very controversial, and I think they wanted to parody people who criticize "welfare queens" by taking this point-of-view to the absurd, to show that immigrant women in France are more likely to be victims of patriarchy than evil manipulative profiteers.
And of course if we only stay on the first-degree approach, it's a terrible racist and absurd cover.
Similarly, the "chimp" cartoon is explained like this:
The first clue that all is not what it seems is that the cartoon was drawn by Charb - the editor himself. He was a Communist, and his girlfriend's parents were North African. A funny kind of racist. Next you have to note that the text next to that cartoon says "Rassemblement Bleu Raciste". This is a play on "Rassemblement Bleu Marine", the slogan of Marine Le Pen's national front, and the tricolor flame next to it is the party logo.
So, what you then need to know is that the cartoon was published after a National Front politician Facebooked a photoshop of the woman in the cartoon as a monkey, and then said on French TV that she should be "in a tree swinging from the branches rather than in government".
So, what you then need to know is that the cartoon was published after a National Front politician Facebooked a photoshop of the woman in the cartoon as a monkey, and then said on French TV that she should be "in a tree swinging from the branches rather than in government".
I've seen other French people elsewhere discussing this who evidently didn't get these references, or if they did, didn't think they were worthwhile, and have a different take on Charlie Hebdo's politics, feeling that they went for shock value in order to boost sales.
My problem with people outside France simply reproducing these particular cartoons as part of "Je suis Charlie Hebdo" - which they're obviously free to do - is that they're removed from their context, which makes them ambiguous - to non-French audiences, probably not even ambiguous, but incomprehensible, if not downright offensive to some, and cheeringly offensive in a non-liberal way to others (like those who love to circulate cartoons of Obama as a monkey, for instance). Again, they're obviously entirely free to do so, but how many understand what they're circulating, and how many who see them understand what they portray?
On the other hand, I don't think there's similar ambiguity about a number of the other cartoons about religious figures or French politicians. They're often scatological or sexually explicit. There's a long tradition of that in satire, not just in France (the British 19th-century cartoonist Rowlandson, among others, is definitely NSFW at times). I also find some of the depictions of Jews and Muslims very stereotyped - which may be part of the joke, but is a bit sophisticated for something that's going to sit on a newsstand and be visible to people who aren't necessarily going to take the time to parse it.
I'm not sure which cover cartoons are being most widely circulated now outside France. It might be interesting to know. It was apparently the ones of Mohammed that the murderers used as their "justification."
As I said above, from what I've been reading, even some French people who presumably keep up with current affairs don't get these references and/or don't appreciate some of the cartoons, so they're unlikely to travel well.
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I hope you realize my smiley was directed at the alert & empty juror comments.
cyberswede
Jan 2015
#19
it's a magazine that only has 30,000 subscribers, so who do you think is funding it?
NewDeal_Dem
Jan 2015
#77
If the message is foolish, the people won't buy it? are you sure? i think there are
NewDeal_Dem
Jan 2015
#87
The actual title of the piece is 'Killing in Egypt". "The Koran is shit" is referring to the murder of
Luminous Animal
Jan 2015
#24
It is provocative and even mean-spirited, and I think its creators would be the first to agree.
nomorenomore08
Jan 2015
#76
I condemn these cold blooded murders and support their right to publish the cartoons.
hrmjustin
Jan 2015
#2
And they were racist. The ones aimed at Blacks eg, would never have been published
sabrina 1
Jan 2015
#128
Do you think then that it was wrong to fire Imus for his remarks? Should we allow any kind of speech
sabrina 1
Jan 2015
#155
I stand with freedom of speech against the armed psychopaths who would rip it from us.
Kurska
Jan 2015
#6
Has anyone said that YOU have to identify with Charlie Hebdo? Or have they said THEY do?
Warren DeMontague
Jan 2015
#67
There's a few folk saying if you don't then yr justifying the murders...
Violet_Crumble
Jan 2015
#102
Totally. Telling someone to fuck right the hell off is a totally reasonable, free-speech response.
Warren DeMontague
Jan 2015
#104
here, hidden and now flagged for review. And thank you for your post. you are not alone.
uppityperson
Jan 2015
#144
It "tells you" that you are incorrect in characterizing that particular sentiment as a "whole
Warren DeMontague
Jan 2015
#163
"It 'tells you' that you are incorrect in characterizing that particular sentiment as a 'whole
Denzil_DC
Jan 2015
#164
"I've seen you add considerably to that undercurrent" --Oh, you have, have you?
Warren DeMontague
Jan 2015
#169
it's a pretty basic concept, but seems quite beyond the understanding of some posters.
NewDeal_Dem
Jan 2015
#84
I agree with you that we can condemn these murders but not associate ourselves with these cartoons
hrmjustin
Jan 2015
#11
I admire their courage and they did nothing to deserve death or physical harm.
hrmjustin
Jan 2015
#32
Your nuance is mostly wasted here, I'm afraid. But please consider me an admirer. - nt
KingCharlemagne
Jan 2015
#56
+100. and there's also the issue, in these times, of hidden players and agendas. since
NewDeal_Dem
Jan 2015
#86
Tiny font: killing is bad mkay BUT IF PEOPLE WOLD JUST ACQUIESCE TO THE DEMANDS OF FUNDAMENTALISTS
Warren DeMontague
Jan 2015
#65
If only the KKK had been guilty of nothing more than simple offensive satire.
RedCappedBandit
Jan 2015
#114
So do you believe it was a false flag? Do you consider that possibility realistic? n/t
Kurska
Jan 2015
#43
"All I will confidently say is that I believe there is more to the story that is not being widely
Kurska
Jan 2015
#48
i think there's more to the story too. there always is. you sure are confident that
NewDeal_Dem
Jan 2015
#91
Of course there is more, what we're referencing is a thread that presented a narrative that way
Kurska
Jan 2015
#95
if i were doing a bombing, i wouldn't bring my ID. and if I did bring my ID, I wouldn't
NewDeal_Dem
Jan 2015
#96
remarkably stupid terrorists and thanks for the personal attack; just what i'd expect
NewDeal_Dem
Jan 2015
#134
I'm expecting average intelligence. It's odd so many terrorists bring their passports and
NewDeal_Dem
Jan 2015
#147
You expect avg intelligence from someone willing to blow themselves up and..
EX500rider
Jan 2015
#148
And talk of "occasion" and "stoking the embers"- call it what it is. Blaming the victim.
Warren DeMontague
Jan 2015
#66
You must not have looked at very many. They depicted a black French official as a monkey, ffs.
LeftyMom
Jan 2015
#55
Sounds like they were trying to pass off some ugly, racist hate speech as "satire". n/t
whathehell
Jan 2015
#70
that so many democrats here declare themselves to be one with 'charlie' makes one wonder.
NewDeal_Dem
Jan 2015
#92
You are right. I hadn't looked at very many. And the ones you mention are obviously racist.
Vattel
Jan 2015
#115
"don't touch our welfare check!" -- because 'satire' directed against minorities and the poor
NewDeal_Dem
Jan 2015
#94
why don't you enlighten me; though i already know what you're going to say
NewDeal_Dem
Jan 2015
#133
all these letters,words, & sentences are violating my religious beliefs. please stop immediately n
msongs
Jan 2015
#50
bullying of oppressed groups- like people who get shot for publishing a cartoon?
Warren DeMontague
Jan 2015
#64
Like I basically said up above, there's no sensible or valid equivalency between the two.
nomorenomore08
Jan 2015
#78
Indeed. If people want to talk about what sorts of things said, are or or aren't offensive
Warren DeMontague
Jan 2015
#83
I agree with that. I have seen some of the cartoons, some aimed at Blacks, others at Muslims,
sabrina 1
Jan 2015
#68
You are correct. The cartoon on the girls kidnapped by Boko Haram was disgusting.
kelliekat44
Jan 2015
#111
Sabrina, leftymum, whatthehell, Charlie Hebdo has never been accused of racism
Albertoo
Jan 2015
#71
You didn't say they weren't racist - you said they had never been accused of racism.
Ms. Toad
Jan 2015
#198
I am - concede to this demand, and when you say that it's wrong to stone homosexuals
Yo_Mama
Jan 2015
#107
They were victims because individuals intent on promoting their own twisted version of Islam
Ms. Toad
Jan 2015
#118
The point isn't what offends, or what disgusts, or what you just don't cotton to. NOT THE POINT.
WinkyDink
Jan 2015
#187
Exactly. And doesn't quite "get" what freedom of speech and of the press means.
WinkyDink
Jan 2015
#188
"you’re not standing up for freedom of speech. You’re valorising hate speech and bullying of
WinkyDink
Jan 2015
#186