General Discussion

bemildred

(90,061 posts)

7. People are only reasonable when they want to be.

Tue Jan 13, 2015, 08:57 AM

Jan 2015

Some of the early Christian religious disputes are very illuminating about just what sort of empty babble people are willing to kill each other over. I am thoroughly on the Charlie Hebdo side, but it IS a religious disagreement, and that has always been a chancy business. Where people err in my view is in thinking that we are rational or reasonable now. Ha. You can get yourself killed very easily right here in the USA by mouthing off to the wrong people. We have Charlie Hebdo attacks all the time here, in schools.

So basically, I think it's both. Free Speech isn't worth much if it doesn't protect you when provoking assholes. The error is thinking assholes can be made to be reasonable by the law. They won't. And that our free speech rights protect us, they don't.

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Freedom of speech or provocation? [View all] oberliner Jan 2015 OP

A lot of people have a problem with freedom of ALL speech. NutmegYankee Jan 2015 #1

No, they are all fine with their own freedom of speech Fumesucker Jan 2015 #3

A rephrasing of the same thing. NutmegYankee Jan 2015 #6

The French actually have "hate speech" laws. They put people in jail for it. MADem Jan 2015 #81

Revolting. So many cowards. nt Codeine Jan 2015 #2

i think it brings up another question would we be so je suis charlie and happy theyre belzabubba333 Jan 2015 #4

I agree ... cilla4progress Jan 2015 #145

Well, since that has actually happened leftynyc Jan 2015 #151

Yes, indeed. Right now I hear Huckabee is questioning the Obama daughters morals randys1 Jan 2015 #177

I am fully in favor of freedom of speech. This is a western cultural value. Quantess Jan 2015 #5

American notions of free speech are fairly unique, branford Jan 2015 #8

People are only reasonable when they want to be. bemildred Jan 2015 #7

At the end of the article . . . JustAnotherGen Jan 2015 #9

Not to mention that the magazine's skirt was much too short. merrily Jan 2015 #10

I'm surprised that you can't believe it. LWolf Jan 2015 #11

That it's happening right here on leftynyc Jan 2015 #153

It sure as hell is. nt LWolf Jan 2015 #187

How does the author, in adjoining sentences, claim the attack has nothing to do with religion Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2015 #12

Coherency is a symptom of apostasy, to make sense is a sin. Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #17

I'm sorry but I did not UglyGreed Jan 2015 #13

this is kind of all over the place. el_bryanto Jan 2015 #15

Well I do know if I drew such cartoons UglyGreed Jan 2015 #20

One of the more disgusting comments I've seen about this: "they did it to themselves" cali Jan 2015 #22

It makes my blood boil when UglyGreed Jan 2015 #29

so are you planning to gun someone down for offending you? I'd wager not. cali Jan 2015 #32

This part of the Crusade UglyGreed Jan 2015 #63

Okay, where did the poster say "they did it to themselves"? You put it in quotation marks KittyWampus Jan 2015 #45

It's right there. read it again. cali Jan 2015 #51

You obviously DID NOT read it leftynyc Jan 2015 #62

. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #88

OK - well you've crawled out a little further on that limb el_bryanto Jan 2015 #28

Would they have been murdered by brainwashed UglyGreed Jan 2015 #30

That's irrelevant el_bryanto Jan 2015 #31

I am not saying it was ok to kill them UglyGreed Jan 2015 #37

lol. no, you're just blaming them for being murdered. cali Jan 2015 #41

Don't put words in my mouth UglyGreed Jan 2015 #46

YOU wrote: they did it to themselves. you can't squirm awayn from that line. it's reprehensible cali Jan 2015 #53

Even the cartoonist knew he might be killed UglyGreed Jan 2015 #72

There was more than one cartoonist melman Jan 2015 #113

You are so wise and so informed UglyGreed Jan 2015 #169

If a woman wearing a shirt skirt is raped onenote Jan 2015 #68

No need to. You said that they did it to themselves. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #93

No, they died because people decided to shoot them melman Jan 2015 #47

Please provide a link to the assertion that he was willing to die. nt el_bryanto Jan 2015 #49

so what did those in the kosher grocery store do? cali Jan 2015 #33

They were related to cartoon attack UglyGreed Jan 2015 #44

whatever. you don't even make a a semi coherent argument. cali Jan 2015 #55

Yeah whatever UglyGreed Jan 2015 #86

So we should walk on eggshells and try to never offend even the most unreasonably sensitive person.. NutmegYankee Jan 2015 #42

Well if you like go ahead and torment UglyGreed Jan 2015 #52

Some people choose to live on their knees. NutmegYankee Jan 2015 #54

"live on their knees" usually refers to living under some oppressive force. in what sense ND-Dem Jan 2015 #136

I was referring to us living in fear of terrorism NutmegYankee Jan 2015 #185

How said you want to live leftynyc Jan 2015 #64

Perhaps next you could provide commentary on short skirts and sexual assault. nt Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2015 #103

A women can wear what she likes UglyGreed Jan 2015 #111

Where is the proof the killers leftynyc Jan 2015 #156

Is it the rape victim's fault because she wore a short skirt? Oklahoma_Liberal Jan 2015 #35

+1 and welcome to DU cali Jan 2015 #36

Grasping at straws UglyGreed Jan 2015 #56

When was the fatwa against Rushdie issued? cali Jan 2015 #60

I liked his statement on Charlie Hebdo PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #65

wow. that's great. thanks for posting it. cali Jan 2015 #66

May I ask, ever so innocuously - cilla4progress Jan 2015 #146

They didn't publish racist cartoons so I doubt they'd do that. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #161

I guess it's in the eye of the beholder. .... cilla4progress Jan 2015 #165

Islam is not a race. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #166

So, it's ok to diss a religion cilla4progress Jan 2015 #171

Yes. Absolutely. Ideas dictate behavior, skin color does not. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #173

Your response is so overly simplistic cilla4progress Jan 2015 #175

And I never said or implied that "all" Muslims are anything. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #176

That's why I said cilla4progress Jan 2015 #178

Look at the timing UglyGreed Jan 2015 #73

stretch much, Ugly Greed? cali Jan 2015 #77

still alive, isn't he? ND-Dem Jan 2015 #137

Well, yours could be the most disgusting leftynyc Jan 2015 #61

Thank you UglyGreed Jan 2015 #67

weak. because suggesting you delete a post is just like cali Jan 2015 #70

LOL - a suggestion is not leftynyc Jan 2015 #71

Well I'm not blaming the victims UglyGreed Jan 2015 #84

yeah. everyone but you, all wrong. except YOU wrote that they brought it on cali Jan 2015 #94

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30724678 UglyGreed Jan 2015 #100

good for him. and thumbs down to you for blaming him for being murdered. cali Jan 2015 #102

And I refuse to be railroaded into UglyGreed Jan 2015 #168

"they did it to themselves" *literally* equals blaming them. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #101

Their actions caused these deaths UglyGreed Jan 2015 #170

No, the trigger pullers caused these deaths. delta17 Jan 2015 #183

charlie hebdo made a concious decision to UglyGreed Jan 2015 #184

Posting the cartoons wasn't deadly, getting shot was. delta17 Jan 2015 #186

We don't let violence UglyGreed Jan 2015 #188

"Well I'm not blaming the victims" Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2015 #108

Well Charlie knew what he was UglyGreed Jan 2015 #116

He's clearly a victim. He was murdered in cold blood for no other reason but cali Jan 2015 #122

Charlie is the magazine melman Jan 2015 #142

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service Douglas Carpenter Jan 2015 #129

wll I didn't alert and I'm glad it wasn't hidden. I think the poster's disgusting victim cali Jan 2015 #133

Thank you for posting this UglyGreed Jan 2015 #135

Charlie Hebdo' is a made up title for the publication, not a person's name. Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #143

I didn't alert leftynyc Jan 2015 #159

Cleric gives a sermon demonizing gay people, and that's religion? Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #16

I don't think it is right to mock anyone UglyGreed Jan 2015 #21

tough that no one likes being mocked or having their beliefs mocked. cali Jan 2015 #23

Yeah mocking poeple always UglyGreed Jan 2015 #26

As did Mark Twain, Dorothy Parker and Lewis Carroll. LanternWaste Jan 2015 #104

If you could not tell UglyGreed Jan 2015 #106

Yet there are congregations with gay pastors treestar Jan 2015 #43

That's not a broad brush, kid, that's contextualization. Religions regularly denigrate LGBT people Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #112

I didn't find the ones I've seen funny either. So what? cali Jan 2015 #19

Victims are usually UglyGreed Jan 2015 #25

they did not pick a fight. period. they expressed a pov cali Jan 2015 #27

Yeah ISIS was created UglyGreed Jan 2015 #34

Your mistake is like some others here on DU leftynyc Jan 2015 #59

yes so effective UglyGreed Jan 2015 #92

wowser. you go from ugly victim blaming to even uglier victim blaming. shame on you. cali Jan 2015 #99

Shame on me for seeing that UglyGreed Jan 2015 #120

bzzzt. fail. it was NOT his choice to be murdered. It was his choice cali Jan 2015 #123

That he himself said UglyGreed Jan 2015 #125

let me translate for you: He was saying that he was willing to stand up for what he believes cali Jan 2015 #130

his words UglyGreed Jan 2015 #140

The only thing that caused death leftynyc Jan 2015 #115

No but he was smart enough to understand UglyGreed Jan 2015 #121

Knowing there are violent animals out leftynyc Jan 2015 #147

Yes so embarrassing UglyGreed Jan 2015 #127

More victim blaming leftynyc Jan 2015 #148

There is nothing reasonable with UglyGreed Jan 2015 #167

None of these victim blamers seem to mention the constant, intentional denigration of LGBT people Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #14

That is part of what makes me so angry oberliner Jan 2015 #18

Maybe we need to blow something up or cut someone's head off, BNW. sibelian Jan 2015 #40

I'm utterly opposed to violence of course, but I am stunned that the very same people who criticized Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #126

Yes. It's revolting. sibelian Jan 2015 #179

US is actually very unique when it comes to freedom of speech laws JonLP24 Jan 2015 #24

I agree JonLP24 Jan 2015 #58

Both. This is not either/or treestar Jan 2015 #38

Our freedoms are not limited to "how bad they get", if they can get bad then we must segregate TheKentuckian Jan 2015 #69

Don't see anyone coming up with any positive solutions treestar Jan 2015 #74

I certainly can't speak for all of DU leftynyc Jan 2015 #162

Appeasement is ALWAYS horrible. You are conflating appeasement with manners and being respectful TheKentuckian Jan 2015 #174

Look up the word in the dictionary. treestar Jan 2015 #189

I know exactly what it means and you know in context that it is surrender under threat of violence. TheKentuckian Jan 2015 #190

The world needs to kill blasphemy taboos, not people. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #39

Agreed oberliner Jan 2015 #48

I am not sure. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #50

Good article treestar Jan 2015 #80

+1 treestar Jan 2015 #75

Let's start with the subtitle which was left out of the of the carefully chosen snipettes azurnoir Jan 2015 #76

Carefully chosen snippets? oberliner Jan 2015 #79

first of all, that's a lie. France does "accept" anti-semitism cali Jan 2015 #83

May I also call BS on his last paragraph oberliner Jan 2015 #85

no but the Koran does preach tolerance of other religions azurnoir Jan 2015 #97

Seems pretty hostile towards atheists oberliner Jan 2015 #117

Does the Bible preach tolerance of atheism, if so please cite the passage azurnoir Jan 2015 #128

Not in the slightest oberliner Jan 2015 #132

So what? cali Jan 2015 #119

then you must have missed the part where the Hebdo cartoonist was fired for antisemitism azurnoir Jan 2015 #87

yeah? how does that prove that France accepts anti-Muslim sentiments and cali Jan 2015 #96

I guess being fired for antisemitism is a sign of acceptance of that by an entire nation? azurnoir Jan 2015 #98

I suggest you read post #95 in this thread cali Jan 2015 #105

please post then as you're promoting it apparently it could not be a call out azurnoir Jan 2015 #107

Obviously I'm on azurnoirs ignore list. Feel free to re-copy my post cali nt riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #118

Charlie Hebdo did indeed satirize Judaism, and Christianity riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #89

and once again which one of those resulted in the firing of a cartoonist? I'll wait :) azurnoir Jan 2015 #90

CH fired the cartoonist who drew anti-Semitic cartoons. We all know that riderinthestorm Jan 2015 #95

huh? ND-Dem Jan 2015 #138

I read the entire article. What are you trying to say? Avalux Jan 2015 #91

I do not believe the article blames th cartoonists as some here on DU have been saying but I do find azurnoir Jan 2015 #109

seriously? cali Jan 2015 #114

when it comes to other religions the Koran does preach some tolerance azurnoir Jan 2015 #124

as I said, both the Bible and the Koran are full of contradictions cali Jan 2015 #134

Do you have some quotes from the Koran about non-believers? oberliner Jan 2015 #139

are you repeating yourself? azurnoir Jan 2015 #152

And the Bible says to follow Jesus you have to sell all you have and give it to the poor. Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #141

I pointed out what the Koran says but your point is taken :) azurnoir Jan 2015 #150

It also preaches this cali Jan 2015 #144

wow from a Rightwing Islamophobic website too, guess tolerance is in the eye of the beholder indeed azurnoir Jan 2015 #149

I got the website from an article by Peter Bergen cali Jan 2015 #154

I'm not having a hard time with anything I simply pointed out the website azurnoir Jan 2015 #155

You don't believe? Really? Avalux Jan 2015 #158

it was pointing out the obvious but to say that means the cartoonists at Hebdo deserved it azurnoir Jan 2015 #160

You sure are a wiggly worm. Avalux Jan 2015 #180

If you provoke someone to kill you onenote Jan 2015 #78

NO. BULLSHIT. Charlie Hebdo's cartoons did not cause the explosion of violence. Avalux Jan 2015 #82

Science alone is the Prophet seveneyes Jan 2015 #110

When you say the brainwashing of young minds - do you think children should be allowed in Churchs? el_bryanto Jan 2015 #131

For some definitions of Church seveneyes Jan 2015 #163

Freedom of Speech!!! Agnosticsherbet Jan 2015 #157

freedom of speech rollin74 Jan 2015 #164

If you don't like THEIR Free Speech.. use YOUR Free Speech. annabanana Jan 2015 #172

"blame the cartoonists for their murder" pales in comparison Blue_Tires Jan 2015 #181

You forgot the magical Jews!! Behind the Aegis Jan 2015 #182