General Discussion

Pooka Fey

(3,496 posts)

120. So much stubborn ignorance in someone claiming to support public education

Tue Jan 13, 2015, 11:27 AM

Jan 2015

Arts education and other subjects of the 3R variety ARE mutually supportive, AND NOT mutually exclusive. There is ample precedent for music in the public education curriculum, dating back to the Medieval University, and likely classical Greece.

The core of lower division was the "Trivium": grammar, logic and rhetoric. Upper division comprised the "Quadrivium" : arithmetic, geometry, music, and astronomy. Everyone from the medieval period (year 1000) onwards studied music, and still managed their other 3R subjects - like Isaac Newton, for example.

Your post fails to provide a valid argument to support your thesis. NOBODY has ever said EVER "Hey let's stop teaching the 3 R's so we can spend all day teaching Vomit Art instead", so I'm afraid I'll have to reject your argument for its glaring logical fallacy (the strawman argument), which you might have avoided if you had benefited from a classical Liberal Arts education.

Full disclosure - I was a public school band teacher and I hold a Master's in Music Education

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Piano stores closing across US as fewer children taking up instrument, some deterred by cost [View all] Omaha Steve Jan 2015 OP

This is a shame kcr Jan 2015 #1

My brother and Mom both have one Johonny Jan 2015 #9

I'd love to have one, too kcr Jan 2015 #113

Yes. LWolf Jan 2015 #99

Most electronic pianos and digital synths can nearly replicate a multitude of instruments. TheBlackAdder Jan 2015 #105

The one we got is pretty nice kcr Jan 2015 #112

The only reason I don't own a piano is because tuning is prohibitively expensive. tridim Jan 2015 #2

I wonder how many people here even know what a weighted MIDI controller is. Trillo Jan 2015 #59

have to agree, although KatyMan Jan 2015 #60

The other day, I was in a thrift store near my home, MineralMan Jan 2015 #63

i wonder how piano tuners are faring Liberal_in_LA Jan 2015 #136

There are pitchfinding gizmos that do it automatically now Recursion Jan 2015 #150

Maybe they will replace it with BubbaFett Jan 2015 #3

Oh that supply and demand always gets in the way yeoman6987 Jan 2015 #6

Yeah BubbaFett Jan 2015 #8

people don't need USEFUL retail like candle makers anymore I guess mahatmakanejeeves Jan 2015 #27

derp BubbaFett Jan 2015 #34

There are still some that prefer supporting artisans, but it's usually the money class. adirondacker Jan 2015 #141

Sounds like a classic case of pianist envy. Orrex Jan 2015 #4

Ba-dum! n/t benz380 Jan 2015 #35

Many, many people have pianos to give away for FREE. Adopting used piano is saving it: KittyWampus Jan 2015 #5

over twenty years ago hfojvt Jan 2015 #62

If you don't use it you lose it sdfernando Jan 2015 #86

Getting rid of a piano was almost impossible Sen. Walter Sobchak Jan 2015 #95

We got rid of ours last year Maeve Jan 2015 #109

people like me who would normally have to buy a piano would rather buy a MIDI keyboard belzabubba333 Jan 2015 #7

And electronic pianos are cheaper pscot Jan 2015 #10

Exactly. You can do so much more with today's keyboards, and that's all kids see in popular music. Hoyt Jan 2015 #16

One of my young relatives was given a TR-808 Sen. Walter Sobchak Jan 2015 #97

I decided to buy a Yamaha weighted action digital because I live in an apartment Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #11

That is what we bought for our son. aikoaiko Jan 2015 #56

It is very expensive gollygee Jan 2015 #12

+100 And yet, it didnt use to be that way. pianos/piano lessons used to be relatively common in ND-Dem Jan 2015 #29

I just sent you my kids. bravenak Jan 2015 #42

LOL! n/t JimDandy Jan 2015 #52

LOL gollygee Jan 2015 #53

Does music really make kids do better in school? joeglow3 Jan 2015 #61

Music Education research shows this. Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #79

We've had really strong music programs at the schools my kids attended... SidDithers Jan 2015 #111

While I loved band (playing the euphonium) kentauros Jan 2015 #140

Band and orchestra people are smart. Manifestor_of_Light Jan 2015 #144

Then it must have helped mine in ways that kentauros Jan 2015 #147

I don't know. But anecdotally my oldest finds MissB Jan 2015 #80

Yes, but only if they actually study and practice. Daemonaquila Jan 2015 #103

However, I do make the distinction that kentauros Jan 2015 #148

I have a feeling the days of kids learning the piano are over. dilby Jan 2015 #13

This is the sort of thing that makes me wish the USA subsidized arts more: KittyWampus Jan 2015 #14

subsidizing piano tuners when many kids are hungry and poorly educated? Priorities. bettyellen Jan 2015 #25

Bettyellen, if we took trillions from defense we could have all those things. KittyWampus Jan 2015 #70

True, it break my heart how the arts go out the window first... bettyellen Jan 2015 #73

Like piano tuners' kids? GoddessOfGuinness Jan 2015 #137

Arts is a waste of money and time yeoman6987 Jan 2015 #33

Some people thrive at the arts tabbycat31 Jan 2015 #37

I understand what you are saying....I really do yeoman6987 Jan 2015 #39

Math and science should not come at the cost to other subjects tabbycat31 Jan 2015 #47

Wynton Marsalis begs to differ KamaAina Jan 2015 #38

Oh, lord ... I don't even know where to begin with your comment frazzled Jan 2015 #50

without a soul Phentex Jan 2015 #71

It also fosters MuseRider Jan 2015 #88

Some of my fondest memories of elementary school are of music class Art_from_Ark Jan 2015 #90

I can still remember first grade ... frazzled Jan 2015 #91

We do children's concerts every year. MuseRider Jan 2015 #106

Cool! /nt frazzled Jan 2015 #110

Mine too! pipi_k Jan 2015 #121

The very end of 1812 MuseRider Jan 2015 #127

My first exposure to the 1812 Overture Art_from_Ark Jan 2015 #159

Your reply is spot on. callous taoboy Jan 2015 #98

Thank you. GoddessOfGuinness Jan 2015 #138

Sports is a waste of time and money. Dawson Leery Jan 2015 #57

for example nt Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #94

I hope that during the remainder of your life you will have some ladjf Jan 2015 #65

No, no it is not. Glassunion Jan 2015 #76

Philistine Tom Ripley Jan 2015 #89

You must have had the "wire mother" growing up. Frank Cannon Jan 2015 #92

ROFLMAO nt Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #124

Tell your cave-man ancestors from 15,000 BCE you cretin, nothing like Repug values on DU, eh ? Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #93

Nothing RW on what I said. yeoman6987 Jan 2015 #107

Oh, yes there is. Hissyspit Jan 2015 #119

I have never heard that yeoman6987 Jan 2015 #122

So much stubborn ignorance in someone claiming to support public education Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #120

Maybe you should tell the fundies about science too. Kingofalldems Jan 2015 #128

They are a lost cause. I don't think liberals yeoman6987 Jan 2015 #133

Liberals like the Arts. Kingofalldems Jan 2015 #134

Authoritarian regimes want "political" art that supports their values. Manifestor_of_Light Jan 2015 #145

So many things wrong with that comment, I don't even know where to begin... tenderfoot Jan 2015 #100

I guess. Don't worry our country will never get rid of arts completely. You are safe. yeoman6987 Jan 2015 #108

And apparently the arts are getting dumbed down, too. Hissyspit Jan 2015 #116

What a ridiculous false dichotomy of an argument. Hissyspit Jan 2015 #117

That statement is full of BS. Lex Jan 2015 #129

That one is beyond obvious. tenderfoot Jan 2015 #130

He's serving on MIRT too Starry Messenger Jan 2015 #131

Is that why the alert went to the administrators? tenderfoot Jan 2015 #132

Are you freaking serious? This is a shark-jumping moment for DU. bullwinkle428 Jan 2015 #154

Yup: Starry Messenger Jan 2015 #155

That's just fucked up Tom Ripley Jan 2015 #158

Oh, for fuck's sake. Hissyspit Jan 2015 #115

+ 1,000,000,000,000, etc nt Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #123

That's pretty much verbatim how I feel about non-science STEM subjects. Chan790 Jan 2015 #125

There's a lot of brain-training that goes on in Ilsa Jan 2015 #151

It's a horseshit argument. No one is getting less math and science education because Guy Whitey Corngood Jan 2015 #156

Arts are a fundamental part of education and have been so for centuries CreekDog Jan 2015 #157

Music and math are highly related as far as what they are and brain function as most trained uppityperson Jan 2015 #160

Cost would be a pretty big consideration. HappyMe Jan 2015 #15

yet americans did all that when the country was much poorer than it is today... ND-Dem Jan 2015 #30

Probably not poorer Americans. HappyMe Jan 2015 #32

probably not, but middle class ones certainly did. as i know from personal experience. ND-Dem Jan 2015 #68

I play piano my whole life and never owned one. JaneyVee Jan 2015 #17

Cello's are not cheap either. vi5 Jan 2015 #19

True, I received a used one as a present when I was 9. JaneyVee Jan 2015 #23

But there's always room for cello. Orrex Jan 2015 #45

Ha! vi5 Jan 2015 #49

I played the cello until after I graduate high school. tammywammy Jan 2015 #22

We should start a band! JaneyVee Jan 2015 #24

We just bought my daughter a used piano recently. vi5 Jan 2015 #18

I see 4 or 5 a week, for free on Craigslist pintobean Jan 2015 #20

Cost and size both play a role. geek tragedy Jan 2015 #21

I picked a bad time to get into the piano moving business Capt. Obvious Jan 2015 #26

Moving used pianos should continue to thrive Brother Buzz Jan 2015 #55

Very sad, but very true. MANative Jan 2015 #28

This is too bad. cyberswede Jan 2015 #31

Your story tells why it is NOT a shame. Daemonaquila Jan 2015 #104

Every once in a while I see a "free piano" or "cheap piano" ad on Craigslist. benz380 Jan 2015 #36

Film cameras are essentially obsolete too. hunter Jan 2015 #40

I see free pianos on Craig's List all the time eShirl Jan 2015 #41

Does this mean that fewer people are playing with their organs? Orrex Jan 2015 #43

How much current popular music uses the piano? LeftyMom Jan 2015 #44

One of the top songs of 2014 does tabbycat31 Jan 2015 #48

Maybe Broadway? Maybe composers still work things out on a piano? KittyWampus Jan 2015 #51

Sarah McLachlan, Alicia Keys, Elton John, Norah Jones, Journey, Ben Folds, Tori Amos, Bruce Hornsby Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #58

Almost all of it. jeff47 Jan 2015 #66

Quite a bit of popular music uses piano Glassunion Jan 2015 #74

If you have a piano you want to get rid of, see if your area schools need it. Paladin Jan 2015 #46

Less "real" music now fadedrose Jan 2015 #54

Get off my lawn! KatyMan Jan 2015 #69

+1000000000 Glassunion Jan 2015 #75

This is really sad. Blue_In_AK Jan 2015 #64

Just a cool piano story... tridim Jan 2015 #67

Cool story! Brilliant nt Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #81

So what did you do with the coins? Art_from_Ark Jan 2015 #87

True story... yuiyoshida Jan 2015 #72

Kids who are interested are learning on electronic keyboards Warpy Jan 2015 #77

As noted elsewhere, it's expensive all around MissB Jan 2015 #78

My kids are learning piano abelenkpe Jan 2015 #82

As someone who used to teach piano lessons, I'm not surprised. tanyev Jan 2015 #83

This is a damned shame, TM99 Jan 2015 #84

oh music is so old school ........ olddots Jan 2015 #85

Electronic keyboards are much cheaper and take up less space. B Calm Jan 2015 #96

I have my great grandmother's upright teenagebambam Jan 2015 #101

Electronic Keyboards ProfessorGAC Jan 2015 #102

I worry somewhat about losing my touch sensitivity even on a weighted action Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #126

I Still Have A Console ProfessorGAC Jan 2015 #153

This message was self-deleted by its author olddots Jan 2015 #114

A friend of mine lived in Muscatine, Iowa nearly thirty years ago. SheilaT Jan 2015 #118

interesting Liberal_in_LA Jan 2015 #135

The local piano store moved to a smaller location and is now selling out csziggy Jan 2015 #139

They don't make them like that anymore. I just did a quick google and WOW there are some beauties... adirondacker Jan 2015 #142

Those are much fancier than my piano csziggy Jan 2015 #149

Slightly - or maybe more than slightly - off topic... GReedDiamond Jan 2015 #143

I have an old upright. Manifestor_of_Light Jan 2015 #146

wow Xilantro Jan 2015 #152