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What's a "liberal left"?? Is it distinct from a "conservative left"?? lastlib Jan 2015 #1
There is a non-liberal left. You could also call it "center left". Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #7
I would just call it "center", FWIW lastlib Jan 2015 #8
There is no center. You are either center left or center right, but whatever. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #11
I'm sorry, that argument requires nuance. And your OP forbids that. (nt) jeff47 Jan 2015 #21
"Center left" - oh, okay. You are third way. Got it. closeupready Jan 2015 #162
interesting, I've actually never been accused of that before. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #200
Also the 'liberal left' is not the 'communist left', or 'socialist left' muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #124
The socialist left is pretty much on the same page. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #201
Liberal and left correlate, but are not quite the same thing. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #174
So we should give up nuance and complexity in order to... JaneyVee Jan 2015 #2
I'm sorry but, "not real muslims" is the opposite of nuance and complexity. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #5
I think "not real Muslims" is simplistic, but... JaneyVee Jan 2015 #9
"It definitely is the truth" - well I really didn't want to get into that aspect of the problem on Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #10
It is the identical argument as to why David Duke and jihadist KKK are not true Christians....simple, really. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #32
Ok Fred, but you haven't actually made the argument, you've just restated the claim while changing Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #40
Evil. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #62
Really? That is your argument? That is the best you can do? Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #117
And who's the moral arbitrator of good vs evil? You? PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #122
It is evil. It is not Islam. "In the name of..........." (fill in the blank) is the cover. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #127
so... it *is* you? PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #130
I don't know what "jihadist KKK" means, but David Duke is DEFINITELY a "true Christian". cherokeeprogressive Jan 2015 #85
I perceive myself as a Soverign Citizen without allegiance to the flag on any thing else...does that Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #129
The person born as my Daughter Allison 23 years ago now PERCEIVES HIMSELF TO BE A MAN. cherokeeprogressive Jan 2015 #156
Your logical disconnect is incredible, is all I can say. Not playing. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #157
I didn't think you had it in ya... so no disappointment. cherokeeprogressive Jan 2015 #158
that was awesome Desert805 Jan 2015 #164
Except YOU don't get to make leftynyc Jan 2015 #100
What is a "true" Christian or a "true" Jew, or a "true" Muslim or cali Jan 2015 #105
Defining evil is problematic? Religions live and die defining evil! Not Killing is way up there in all Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #126
Of course defining evil is problematic but that is not the issue here. cali Jan 2015 #131
Based on what objective standard? phil89 Jan 2015 #34
This message was self-deleted by its author 840high Jan 2015 #66
Howard Dean is simplistic and stupid, now? MADem Jan 2015 #68
Smart guy who said something really stupid brentspeak Jan 2015 #74
I don't think he said something stupid. His point WAS entirely valid. MADem Jan 2015 #79
They were radical Islamist terrorists brentspeak Jan 2015 #81
They were warped, idiotic radical terrorists who had a fucked-up and twisted view of Islam. MADem Jan 2015 #82
Wahhabism Jesus Malverde Jan 2015 #143
Most shi'a would never condone stoning anyone. MADem Jan 2015 #154
"Most shi'a would never condone stoning anyone." Desert805 Jan 2015 #165
"Most Christians would never shoot a doctor for providing abortion services." MADem Jan 2015 #169
"Most Christians would never shoot a doctor for providing abortion" Desert805 Jan 2015 #171
I wasn't the one who coughed up this snark.... MADem Jan 2015 #172
That wasn't snark, that was a fact. Desert805 Jan 2015 #173
No--that was a comment that revealed your POV. nt MADem Jan 2015 #180
Which is, in your opinion? Desert805 Jan 2015 #183
Yes, I do have your number--as does everyone else reading your comments. nt MADem Jan 2015 #205
There was significant support among christians here for the murder of Dr. Tiller, Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #202
"Here?" On DU? Oh, you have to point me to one of those expressions of support. MADem Jan 2015 #206
Here: in the US. nt. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #207
And the solution to speech? MORE SPEECH. MADem Jan 2015 #209
The majority of shiites live in Iran or Pakistan. Jesus Malverde Jan 2015 #194
Sharia is practiced in Egypt, Iraq, Turkey, KSA, etc.--it's not a shi'a thing. MADem Jan 2015 #196
You are correct Jesus Malverde Jan 2015 #197
Ever see Shahs of Sunset? MADem Jan 2015 #208
I believe the disconnect comes because people see statements like yours to have an opposite side... cherokeeprogressive Jan 2015 #86
The same way that a radical Christian terrorist shoots a doctor providing abortions in the name of pampango Jan 2015 #108
It doesn't make them 'not a true Christian'; if they are Christian, and not 'not-a-true-Christian' muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #133
aah, the old appeal to authority fallacy m-lekktor Jan 2015 #109
Oh, horse poop. Howard Dean did make the comment, the poster is objecting to it. MADem Jan 2015 #110
Um gosh is Howard his argument? Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #116
The argument isn't stupid, just because you say it is. Nor is it false. nt MADem Jan 2015 #125
And peoples view of their religion isn't 'twisted and warped' because you say it is. cleanhippie Jan 2015 #138
Oh sure--because "mass murder" is a normal behavior, accommodated by "religious MADem Jan 2015 #182
And a hypocritical perspective doesn't serve yours. cleanhippie Jan 2015 #184
Yes, and there's plenty of that to go around--but we're not talking about THOSE issues, are we? MADem Jan 2015 #186
Dean is either not very bright or is willing to lie casually, when he was Chair of this Party, on TV Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #137
Really? MADem Jan 2015 #170
I've never heard the "Not Real Muslims" argument myself..... Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2015 #75
same thing happened in the 30's when liberals ceded criticism of the Jews Douglas Carpenter Jan 2015 #3
The post says criticism of Islam not of Muslims oberliner Jan 2015 #12
You honestly don't think that a lot of what is going on involves Douglas Carpenter Jan 2015 #15
Maybe it does oberliner Jan 2015 #16
Which is why I did this.... Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2015 #78
LOL Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #190
Were Hitler's victims massacring people left-and-right? brentspeak Jan 2015 #70
I'm curious as to what you're trying to say cali Jan 2015 #97
He was attempting a fairly clever analogy that doesn't work. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #118
I have to say I thought it was damned creepy cali Jan 2015 #121
I thought it was very clever, but misleading. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #176
Because slaughtering folks is the same as photoshopping, that is your equivalent action to Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #132
huh? what on earth are you going on about? cali Jan 2015 #136
this article from salon.com makes the point better than I do Douglas Carpenter Jan 2015 #139
All criticism of Islam is not equivalent to what Harris has to say. cali Jan 2015 #141
much of the criticism I have seen here on DU lately has been anything but reasoned criticism Douglas Carpenter Jan 2015 #142
and much of it hasn't been. and most of your posts have cali Jan 2015 #150
Of course Harris didn't quite say what Harris is portrayed as having said. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #149
+ 1000 Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #192
the more I mull over that interview, the less I like it. It's dishonest cali Jan 2015 #144
Except that Judaism was not one of the most powerful and harmful forces of repression in the world. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #175
no they were not a major force for evil but if you listened to the anti-Semitic propagandist of the Douglas Carpenter Jan 2015 #178
The difference is *truth*. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #179
it is true that relative to their population size in Germany - a major portion of Germany's Douglas Carpenter Jan 2015 #188
What on earth are you talking about here? Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #191
Yup. I think many on the left feel compelled to defend Islam because the RW criticizes it. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #4
That's strange. I've seen a few say most Muslims are extremists Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #71
You've seen that HERE? "MOST (emphasis mine) Muslims"? n/t cherokeeprogressive Jan 2015 #87
Of course there's been some posts like that here... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #88
The attackers were Wahhabi, like Isis, Boko haram, Taliban ... 4139 Jan 2015 #6
The clip wasn't long enough to get a full context, so I googled and got this: freshwest Jan 2015 #17
Wahhabi do not think Shia are Muslims ... 4139 Jan 2015 #29
Extremely medieval, thanks for the link. Just skimming over it and link 'here' is gross. freshwest Jan 2015 #55
The other question though is how much culpability should be apportioned to other Muslims el_bryanto Jan 2015 #13
Only those who endorse these actions should be criticized oberliner Jan 2015 #14
I quite liked the cover - but people have pointed out that the nose on the face looks like a el_bryanto Jan 2015 #23
I don't think that's the case. His friends and colleagues are dead. This seemed sincere. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #25
Good - honestly I hoped it was a coincidence - but it's one of those things el_bryanto Jan 2015 #28
"respectful?" sure, sure. ND-Dem Jan 2015 #36
Maybe that wasn't the right word oberliner Jan 2015 #43
none. But the real question is how best to make sure that doesn't happen. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #119
Is the best way to go after the problem for the liberal left to go after religion? nt el_bryanto Jan 2015 #128
Starting out being honest about the problems with religious extremism would be a good start. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #148
there is no way left is going to win ANY major discourse no matter what 'framing' certainot Jan 2015 #18
Bookmarked... freshwest Jan 2015 #19
Yep, time to shut up and invade Iraq again. jeff47 Jan 2015 #20
I haven't seen Warren or anyone on DU advocate such a thing. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #22
It was the exact same argument the OP is now making. jeff47 Jan 2015 #26
Way to elevate the conversation! PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #27
The OP's argument is shut up so Politico and similar doesn't say mean things. jeff47 Jan 2015 #33
That's what you got out of it. which says more about you than the op PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #41
Sorry, you tried to differentiate between Muslims. That's forbidden by the OP. jeff47 Jan 2015 #48
Grammar Nazi here: "Tenets" (not "tenants," unless you're discussing sub-par KingCharlemagne Jan 2015 #80
dammit, thanks. posting from phone... stupid autocorrect PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #115
+100 ND-Dem Jan 2015 #46
The OP is pure tripe - IMO -- n/t mazzarro Jan 2015 #76
Actually I said we should reject the framing from the right, but it was too dumb for you to get that Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #45
No, you insisted that we let the framing from the right go unchallenged. jeff47 Jan 2015 #56
in some alternate universe. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #61
Only In Your Intepretation ProfessorGAC Jan 2015 #152
Wasn't Saddam a secularist? aint_no_life_nowhere Jan 2015 #37
HEY!! STOP TRYING TO USE NUANCE! The OP explicitly forbade using such details. (nt) jeff47 Jan 2015 #39
why yes, yes he was. ND-Dem Jan 2015 #47
You have yet to address a single point I actually made in my very short three paragraphs. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #120
Actually, I did. You just don't like the implications of your post. jeff47 Jan 2015 #146
This is what I plan to do: OldRedneck Jan 2015 #24
If that's what you got out of this OP, then that's on you. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #30
Yes, they were Muslim KMOD Jan 2015 #31
It would be cut and dry simple to say that the sole reason was religion el_bryanto Jan 2015 #38
Yes KMOD Jan 2015 #42
nonsense: plenty of lefties marched against our 80s Afpak policy, MisterP Jan 2015 #35
What about the Muslim copy editor who was killed? oberliner Jan 2015 #49
Sometimes I think I'm posting in swahili and the responses are in urdu. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #51
Then work on explaining your argument better. jeff47 Jan 2015 #59
They were Wahabbi Muslims JonLP24 Jan 2015 #44
Nobody should be criticizing Islam. We should all be criticizing batshit crazy fundamentalism-- eridani Jan 2015 #50
Religion in general has a problem. nt. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #52
In-group loyalty is the real problem. Religion, historically, is just another excuse for that eridani Jan 2015 #57
Islam certainly should be criticized Albertoo Jan 2015 #65
.... 840high Jan 2015 #67
Inquisition? Witch burnings? eridani Jan 2015 #95
esoteric taoist sects practiced human offerings/mutilations Albertoo Jan 2015 #98
Probably more of a philosophy n/t eridani Jan 2015 #193
what? yikes. Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, etc cali Jan 2015 #106
Some religions like to label you a bigot for criticizing them. Jesus Malverde Jan 2015 #140
This is a key point in this argument where people are talking past each other el_bryanto Jan 2015 #151
Good Points...nt Jesus Malverde Jan 2015 #195
To make it clear - as a believer - I think that that people pushing those arguments el_bryanto Jan 2015 #199
The flaw in your reasoning is when you claim that the Liberal Left Maedhros Jan 2015 #53
" We reject the notion that terrorists are representative of Islam" Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #123
We can not be afraid to criticize any religion. Lobo27 Jan 2015 #54
Well on DU Islam and other religion gets challenged and criticized. n/t. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #58
Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Stinky The Clown Jan 2015 #60
Doesnt fucking matter. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #63
This message was self-deleted by its author 840high Jan 2015 #64
No true scotsman DonCoquixote Jan 2015 #69
^^^ KMOD Jan 2015 #72
First left-liberals will need to talk about classism and how it relates to religion. Starry Messenger Jan 2015 #73
I appreciate that you added "culturally" YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #163
Yep, new anti-Islam bus ads on MUNI this month. Starry Messenger Jan 2015 #166
I'm not gonna be a damn defensive liberal so I'm off to try to get halal banned! Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #77
uh-oh You didn't actually eat something halal, did you? KMOD Jan 2015 #83
I did. That sneaky halal Vegemite was my downfall... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #90
You do realize that your Turkey may be an Islamic terrorist, right? Douglas Carpenter Jan 2015 #135
halal's Jewish, right? MisterP Jan 2015 #84
Little known Stephanie Bannister fact - Halal's the capital city of the country called Islam... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #92
if there were any specific reason to ban brothers from making babies she'd be one MisterP Jan 2015 #94
I don't understand.. I mean, I don't LIKE pork. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #89
Not even bacon? Bacon and egg rolls with BBQ sauce is my fave breakfast ever... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #91
Nope- It's weird. Here I'm an Atheist and have this almost monk-like, ascetic existence. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #93
The no-pork thing is about the ONLY Muslim tenet Blue_In_AK Jan 2015 #96
The proscription of eating pork meat made sense in the middle east of antiquity, not now Albertoo Jan 2015 #99
Oh, yeah, I get why it happened. like, trichinosis is no picnic I think. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #101
Agreed. Worse of all is the halal/kosher procedure to kill animals Albertoo Jan 2015 #103
Somehow, the solution to every problem, perceived problem or trumped up problem of the left is merrily Jan 2015 #102
Strawman. "they weren't real Muslims" is a mischaracterization of the argument. redgreenandblue Jan 2015 #104
That argument has been presented in this very thread Fumesucker Jan 2015 #107
and posted repeatedly from for example an essay by Howard Dean Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #113
excellent OP, so many CLUELESS responses, m-lekktor Jan 2015 #111
Check the mote in your own eye, there, pal--and maybe try a little of that civility on for size. MADem Jan 2015 #112
Too much hyperbole to be taken seriously. GeorgeGist Jan 2015 #114
The "No True Scotsman" fallacy. alarimer Jan 2015 #134
No, religion was just the tool used to motivate. jeff47 Jan 2015 #147
Social organization The2ndWheel Jan 2015 #155
No doubt-- but not all in-group/out-group constructs are equally potent. Marr Jan 2015 #185
It is extremism in all forms that is the problem, not religion as such. Bonobo Jan 2015 #204
Absolutely correct get the red out Jan 2015 #145
We need to make a distinction between jihadists and mainstream Islam KamaAina Jan 2015 #153
Where does Saudi Arabia as a culture lie in that? PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #159
I agree. HappyMe Jan 2015 #160
That is correct, we need to do that. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #168
No, we need to attack that false distinction. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #177
Define "mainstream". KamaAina Jan 2015 #181
That's a fair criticism. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #187
Same situation in Christianity. KamaAina Jan 2015 #198
No, I don't think so. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #203
Why should we care about the Right "winning" an argument? YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #161
The last 40 years might give you a clue as to why we should care. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #167
Excellent post. K&R Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #189
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