General Discussion

Donald Ian Rankin

(13,598 posts)

177. No, we need to attack that false distinction.

Wed Jan 14, 2015, 03:03 PM

Jan 2015

We need to recognise that, for example, people coming to think that it's OK to murder blasphemers is a direct consequence of widespread acceptance of criminalisation of blasphemy.

The big problem is not that relatively few (but a far higher proportion than any other religion) Muslims who go around murdering people. It's the much larger number who oppose women's rights, gay rights, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc.

If you want to use Pat Robertson as an example, you need to remember that mainstream Islam is to his right, not to his left.

We should not hold Muslims responsible for other people's actions. We should, however, hold being rightwing against rightwingers, and we should recognise that Islam as interpreted by most (by no means all) Muslims is a very right wing, very bad ideology.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

209 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

How the liberal left loses the argument. Ceding criticism of Islam to the Right. [View all] Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 OP

What's a "liberal left"?? Is it distinct from a "conservative left"?? lastlib Jan 2015 #1

There is a non-liberal left. You could also call it "center left". Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #7

I would just call it "center", FWIW lastlib Jan 2015 #8

There is no center. You are either center left or center right, but whatever. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #11

I'm sorry, that argument requires nuance. And your OP forbids that. (nt) jeff47 Jan 2015 #21

"Center left" - oh, okay. You are third way. Got it. closeupready Jan 2015 #162

interesting, I've actually never been accused of that before. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #200

Also the 'liberal left' is not the 'communist left', or 'socialist left' muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #124

The socialist left is pretty much on the same page. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #201

Liberal and left correlate, but are not quite the same thing. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #174

So we should give up nuance and complexity in order to... JaneyVee Jan 2015 #2

I'm sorry but, "not real muslims" is the opposite of nuance and complexity. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #5

I think "not real Muslims" is simplistic, but... JaneyVee Jan 2015 #9

"It definitely is the truth" - well I really didn't want to get into that aspect of the problem on Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #10

It is the identical argument as to why David Duke and jihadist KKK are not true Christians....simple, really. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #32

Ok Fred, but you haven't actually made the argument, you've just restated the claim while changing Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #40

Evil. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #62

Really? That is your argument? That is the best you can do? Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #117

And who's the moral arbitrator of good vs evil? You? PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #122

It is evil. It is not Islam. "In the name of..........." (fill in the blank) is the cover. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #127

so... it *is* you? PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #130

I don't know what "jihadist KKK" means, but David Duke is DEFINITELY a "true Christian". cherokeeprogressive Jan 2015 #85

I perceive myself as a Soverign Citizen without allegiance to the flag on any thing else...does that Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #129

The person born as my Daughter Allison 23 years ago now PERCEIVES HIMSELF TO BE A MAN. cherokeeprogressive Jan 2015 #156

Your logical disconnect is incredible, is all I can say. Not playing. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #157

I didn't think you had it in ya... so no disappointment. cherokeeprogressive Jan 2015 #158

that was awesome Desert805 Jan 2015 #164

Except YOU don't get to make leftynyc Jan 2015 #100

What is a "true" Christian or a "true" Jew, or a "true" Muslim or cali Jan 2015 #105

Defining evil is problematic? Religions live and die defining evil! Not Killing is way up there in all Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #126

Of course defining evil is problematic but that is not the issue here. cali Jan 2015 #131

Based on what objective standard? phil89 Jan 2015 #34

This message was self-deleted by its author 840high Jan 2015 #66

Howard Dean is simplistic and stupid, now? MADem Jan 2015 #68

Smart guy who said something really stupid brentspeak Jan 2015 #74

I don't think he said something stupid. His point WAS entirely valid. MADem Jan 2015 #79

They were radical Islamist terrorists brentspeak Jan 2015 #81

They were warped, idiotic radical terrorists who had a fucked-up and twisted view of Islam. MADem Jan 2015 #82

Wahhabism Jesus Malverde Jan 2015 #143

Most shi'a would never condone stoning anyone. MADem Jan 2015 #154

"Most shi'a would never condone stoning anyone." Desert805 Jan 2015 #165

"Most Christians would never shoot a doctor for providing abortion services." MADem Jan 2015 #169

"Most Christians would never shoot a doctor for providing abortion" Desert805 Jan 2015 #171

I wasn't the one who coughed up this snark.... MADem Jan 2015 #172

That wasn't snark, that was a fact. Desert805 Jan 2015 #173

No--that was a comment that revealed your POV. nt MADem Jan 2015 #180

Which is, in your opinion? Desert805 Jan 2015 #183

Yes, I do have your number--as does everyone else reading your comments. nt MADem Jan 2015 #205

There was significant support among christians here for the murder of Dr. Tiller, Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #202

"Here?" On DU? Oh, you have to point me to one of those expressions of support. MADem Jan 2015 #206

Here: in the US. nt. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #207

And the solution to speech? MORE SPEECH. MADem Jan 2015 #209

The majority of shiites live in Iran or Pakistan. Jesus Malverde Jan 2015 #194

Sharia is practiced in Egypt, Iraq, Turkey, KSA, etc.--it's not a shi'a thing. MADem Jan 2015 #196

You are correct Jesus Malverde Jan 2015 #197

Ever see Shahs of Sunset? MADem Jan 2015 #208

I believe the disconnect comes because people see statements like yours to have an opposite side... cherokeeprogressive Jan 2015 #86

The same way that a radical Christian terrorist shoots a doctor providing abortions in the name of pampango Jan 2015 #108

It doesn't make them 'not a true Christian'; if they are Christian, and not 'not-a-true-Christian' muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #133

aah, the old appeal to authority fallacy m-lekktor Jan 2015 #109

Oh, horse poop. Howard Dean did make the comment, the poster is objecting to it. MADem Jan 2015 #110

Um gosh is Howard his argument? Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #116

The argument isn't stupid, just because you say it is. Nor is it false. nt MADem Jan 2015 #125

And peoples view of their religion isn't 'twisted and warped' because you say it is. cleanhippie Jan 2015 #138

Oh sure--because "mass murder" is a normal behavior, accommodated by "religious MADem Jan 2015 #182

And a hypocritical perspective doesn't serve yours. cleanhippie Jan 2015 #184

Yes, and there's plenty of that to go around--but we're not talking about THOSE issues, are we? MADem Jan 2015 #186

Dean is either not very bright or is willing to lie casually, when he was Chair of this Party, on TV Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #137

Really? MADem Jan 2015 #170

I've never heard the "Not Real Muslims" argument myself..... Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2015 #75

same thing happened in the 30's when liberals ceded criticism of the Jews Douglas Carpenter Jan 2015 #3

The post says criticism of Islam not of Muslims oberliner Jan 2015 #12

You honestly don't think that a lot of what is going on involves Douglas Carpenter Jan 2015 #15

Maybe it does oberliner Jan 2015 #16

Which is why I did this.... Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2015 #78

LOL Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #190

Were Hitler's victims massacring people left-and-right? brentspeak Jan 2015 #70

I'm curious as to what you're trying to say cali Jan 2015 #97

He was attempting a fairly clever analogy that doesn't work. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #118

I have to say I thought it was damned creepy cali Jan 2015 #121

I thought it was very clever, but misleading. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #176

Because slaughtering folks is the same as photoshopping, that is your equivalent action to Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #132

huh? what on earth are you going on about? cali Jan 2015 #136

this article from salon.com makes the point better than I do Douglas Carpenter Jan 2015 #139

All criticism of Islam is not equivalent to what Harris has to say. cali Jan 2015 #141

much of the criticism I have seen here on DU lately has been anything but reasoned criticism Douglas Carpenter Jan 2015 #142

and much of it hasn't been. and most of your posts have cali Jan 2015 #150

Of course Harris didn't quite say what Harris is portrayed as having said. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #149

+ 1000 Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #192

the more I mull over that interview, the less I like it. It's dishonest cali Jan 2015 #144

Except that Judaism was not one of the most powerful and harmful forces of repression in the world. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #175

no they were not a major force for evil but if you listened to the anti-Semitic propagandist of the Douglas Carpenter Jan 2015 #178

The difference is *truth*. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #179

it is true that relative to their population size in Germany - a major portion of Germany's Douglas Carpenter Jan 2015 #188

What on earth are you talking about here? Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #191

Yup. I think many on the left feel compelled to defend Islam because the RW criticizes it. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #4

That's strange. I've seen a few say most Muslims are extremists Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #71

You've seen that HERE? "MOST (emphasis mine) Muslims"? n/t cherokeeprogressive Jan 2015 #87

Of course there's been some posts like that here... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #88

The attackers were Wahhabi, like Isis, Boko haram, Taliban ... 4139 Jan 2015 #6

The clip wasn't long enough to get a full context, so I googled and got this: freshwest Jan 2015 #17

Wahhabi do not think Shia are Muslims ... 4139 Jan 2015 #29

Extremely medieval, thanks for the link. Just skimming over it and link 'here' is gross. freshwest Jan 2015 #55

The other question though is how much culpability should be apportioned to other Muslims el_bryanto Jan 2015 #13

Only those who endorse these actions should be criticized oberliner Jan 2015 #14

I quite liked the cover - but people have pointed out that the nose on the face looks like a el_bryanto Jan 2015 #23

I don't think that's the case. His friends and colleagues are dead. This seemed sincere. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #25

Good - honestly I hoped it was a coincidence - but it's one of those things el_bryanto Jan 2015 #28

"respectful?" sure, sure. ND-Dem Jan 2015 #36

Maybe that wasn't the right word oberliner Jan 2015 #43

none. But the real question is how best to make sure that doesn't happen. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #119

Is the best way to go after the problem for the liberal left to go after religion? nt el_bryanto Jan 2015 #128

Starting out being honest about the problems with religious extremism would be a good start. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #148

there is no way left is going to win ANY major discourse no matter what 'framing' certainot Jan 2015 #18

Bookmarked... freshwest Jan 2015 #19

Yep, time to shut up and invade Iraq again. jeff47 Jan 2015 #20

I haven't seen Warren or anyone on DU advocate such a thing. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #22

It was the exact same argument the OP is now making. jeff47 Jan 2015 #26

Way to elevate the conversation! PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #27

The OP's argument is shut up so Politico and similar doesn't say mean things. jeff47 Jan 2015 #33

That's what you got out of it. which says more about you than the op PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #41

Sorry, you tried to differentiate between Muslims. That's forbidden by the OP. jeff47 Jan 2015 #48

Grammar Nazi here: "Tenets" (not "tenants," unless you're discussing sub-par KingCharlemagne Jan 2015 #80

dammit, thanks. posting from phone... stupid autocorrect PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #115

+100 ND-Dem Jan 2015 #46

The OP is pure tripe - IMO -- n/t mazzarro Jan 2015 #76

Actually I said we should reject the framing from the right, but it was too dumb for you to get that Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #45

No, you insisted that we let the framing from the right go unchallenged. jeff47 Jan 2015 #56

in some alternate universe. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #61

Only In Your Intepretation ProfessorGAC Jan 2015 #152

Wasn't Saddam a secularist? aint_no_life_nowhere Jan 2015 #37

HEY!! STOP TRYING TO USE NUANCE! The OP explicitly forbade using such details. (nt) jeff47 Jan 2015 #39

why yes, yes he was. ND-Dem Jan 2015 #47

You have yet to address a single point I actually made in my very short three paragraphs. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #120

Actually, I did. You just don't like the implications of your post. jeff47 Jan 2015 #146

This is what I plan to do: OldRedneck Jan 2015 #24

If that's what you got out of this OP, then that's on you. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #30

Yes, they were Muslim KMOD Jan 2015 #31

It would be cut and dry simple to say that the sole reason was religion el_bryanto Jan 2015 #38

Yes KMOD Jan 2015 #42

nonsense: plenty of lefties marched against our 80s Afpak policy, MisterP Jan 2015 #35

What about the Muslim copy editor who was killed? oberliner Jan 2015 #49

Sometimes I think I'm posting in swahili and the responses are in urdu. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #51

Then work on explaining your argument better. jeff47 Jan 2015 #59

They were Wahabbi Muslims JonLP24 Jan 2015 #44

Nobody should be criticizing Islam. We should all be criticizing batshit crazy fundamentalism-- eridani Jan 2015 #50

Religion in general has a problem. nt. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #52

In-group loyalty is the real problem. Religion, historically, is just another excuse for that eridani Jan 2015 #57

Islam certainly should be criticized Albertoo Jan 2015 #65

.... 840high Jan 2015 #67

Inquisition? Witch burnings? eridani Jan 2015 #95

esoteric taoist sects practiced human offerings/mutilations Albertoo Jan 2015 #98

Probably more of a philosophy n/t eridani Jan 2015 #193

what? yikes. Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, etc cali Jan 2015 #106

Some religions like to label you a bigot for criticizing them. Jesus Malverde Jan 2015 #140

This is a key point in this argument where people are talking past each other el_bryanto Jan 2015 #151

Good Points...nt Jesus Malverde Jan 2015 #195

To make it clear - as a believer - I think that that people pushing those arguments el_bryanto Jan 2015 #199

The flaw in your reasoning is when you claim that the Liberal Left Maedhros Jan 2015 #53

" We reject the notion that terrorists are representative of Islam" Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #123

We can not be afraid to criticize any religion. Lobo27 Jan 2015 #54

Well on DU Islam and other religion gets challenged and criticized. n/t. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #58

Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Stinky The Clown Jan 2015 #60

Doesnt fucking matter. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #63

This message was self-deleted by its author 840high Jan 2015 #64

No true scotsman DonCoquixote Jan 2015 #69

^^^ KMOD Jan 2015 #72

First left-liberals will need to talk about classism and how it relates to religion. Starry Messenger Jan 2015 #73

I appreciate that you added "culturally" YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #163

Yep, new anti-Islam bus ads on MUNI this month. Starry Messenger Jan 2015 #166

I'm not gonna be a damn defensive liberal so I'm off to try to get halal banned! Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #77

uh-oh You didn't actually eat something halal, did you? KMOD Jan 2015 #83

I did. That sneaky halal Vegemite was my downfall... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #90

You do realize that your Turkey may be an Islamic terrorist, right? Douglas Carpenter Jan 2015 #135

halal's Jewish, right? MisterP Jan 2015 #84

Little known Stephanie Bannister fact - Halal's the capital city of the country called Islam... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #92

if there were any specific reason to ban brothers from making babies she'd be one MisterP Jan 2015 #94

I don't understand.. I mean, I don't LIKE pork. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #89

Not even bacon? Bacon and egg rolls with BBQ sauce is my fave breakfast ever... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #91

Nope- It's weird. Here I'm an Atheist and have this almost monk-like, ascetic existence. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #93

The no-pork thing is about the ONLY Muslim tenet Blue_In_AK Jan 2015 #96

The proscription of eating pork meat made sense in the middle east of antiquity, not now Albertoo Jan 2015 #99

Oh, yeah, I get why it happened. like, trichinosis is no picnic I think. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #101

Agreed. Worse of all is the halal/kosher procedure to kill animals Albertoo Jan 2015 #103

Somehow, the solution to every problem, perceived problem or trumped up problem of the left is merrily Jan 2015 #102

Strawman. "they weren't real Muslims" is a mischaracterization of the argument. redgreenandblue Jan 2015 #104

That argument has been presented in this very thread Fumesucker Jan 2015 #107

and posted repeatedly from for example an essay by Howard Dean Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #113

excellent OP, so many CLUELESS responses, m-lekktor Jan 2015 #111

Check the mote in your own eye, there, pal--and maybe try a little of that civility on for size. MADem Jan 2015 #112

Too much hyperbole to be taken seriously. GeorgeGist Jan 2015 #114

The "No True Scotsman" fallacy. alarimer Jan 2015 #134

No, religion was just the tool used to motivate. jeff47 Jan 2015 #147

Social organization The2ndWheel Jan 2015 #155

No doubt-- but not all in-group/out-group constructs are equally potent. Marr Jan 2015 #185

It is extremism in all forms that is the problem, not religion as such. Bonobo Jan 2015 #204

Absolutely correct get the red out Jan 2015 #145

We need to make a distinction between jihadists and mainstream Islam KamaAina Jan 2015 #153

Where does Saudi Arabia as a culture lie in that? PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #159

I agree. HappyMe Jan 2015 #160

That is correct, we need to do that. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #168

No, we need to attack that false distinction. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #177

Define "mainstream". KamaAina Jan 2015 #181

That's a fair criticism. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #187

Same situation in Christianity. KamaAina Jan 2015 #198

No, I don't think so. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #203

Why should we care about the Right "winning" an argument? YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #161

The last 40 years might give you a clue as to why we should care. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #167

Excellent post. K&R Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #189