General Discussion

mike_c

(37,051 posts)

145. me....

Thu Jan 15, 2015, 08:04 PM

Jan 2015

You know, when I was a kid the ACLU taught us that "I might hate what you have to say, but I'll defend your right to say it" isn't just an abstract ideal. In fact, as an ideal it isn't worth a damn until it's more than abstract. It's meaningless until you stand up for the right of neo-nazis to march down the streets in Jewish neighborhoods, or for the KKK to rally and spew their bile. The rubber meets the road when you're faced with ACTIONS rather than rights in the abstract.

If you've read this far, I will say that I think your example is a bit contrived. It's one thing to defend someone's right to free speech, even if offensive, but quite another to urge them to be more widely offensive. Newspapers print Charlie Hebdo covers because they're news, presently. Defending their right to do so is more a matter of press freedom than freedom of speech, and I wouldn't urge them to do so unless there was relevant news to report.

Rights don't mean shit unless the actions they permit are fully protected by the society that says it recognizes those rights.

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Let's see how intellectually honest the defenders of Charlie Hebdo are. [View all] philosslayer Jan 2015 OP

there is a grand canyon DonCoquixote Jan 2015 #1

Fine don't defend them upaloopa Jan 2015 #2

Yawn tabasco Jan 2015 #3

Fail nt Dreamer Tatum Jan 2015 #4

+1 hifiguy Jan 2015 #19

+1 major fail. 45 seconds of my life reading the OP. Hassin Bin Sober Jan 2015 #180

I'm OFFENDED by this cilla4progress Jan 2015 #228

I'm half Jewish and if a cartoonist made a mockery of The Shoah I wouldn't kill him DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2015 #5

agreed samsingh Jan 2015 #98

This is ridiculous. FIRST, the analogy of religion to race fails. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #6

+1 aikoaiko Jan 2015 #8

Nailed it oberliner Jan 2015 #9

Well done! zappaman Jan 2015 #10

So, let me understand your position philosslayer Jan 2015 #12

I would think that would be obvious oberliner Jan 2015 #20

Correct. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #23

Everything and everyone should be mocked and made fun of. randys1 Jan 2015 #32

+1 Desert805 Jan 2015 #149

jews are not a race. one can be jewish one second and not jewish the next second nt msongs Jan 2015 #85

I don't think the Nazis saw it that way BainsBane Jan 2015 #169

And your position is no one should ever mock religion? Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #87

When a jewish gunman slaughters a bunch of cartoonists... sibelian Jan 2015 #179

You would still have to defend the right HappyMe Jan 2015 #17

Re-read the OP. That is TOTALLY not what s/he asked. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #26

... hifiguy Jan 2015 #21

Exactly. JimDandy Jan 2015 #49

In the context of discussing freedom of speech Boreal Jan 2015 #182

Agreed. The whole point here is to accuse DUers of being either racists or hypocrites. arcane1 Jan 2015 #102

Amen, brother. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #104

Is it? Boreal Jan 2015 #183

"Race can't be changed; religion can" goldent Jan 2015 #166

I am a woman. Me wearing short sleeves can be highly offensive to people. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #172

I'm offended that so many here cilla4progress Jan 2015 #230

I really don't get why being able to change ones religion means mockery of people for ND-Dem Jan 2015 #206

I think people want to justify that their mocking of religion is ok goldent Jan 2015 #224

And if they'd come of age in the 50s they'd be mocking race and gender and loving religion. ND-Dem Jan 2015 #225

So the murder of 6 million Jews because of their religion was their fault onenote Jan 2015 #176

That's the most bullshit leap ever. Satire and criticism are not analogous with murder and genocide. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #177

lol Boreal Jan 2015 #184

You're the one that seems to think that the difference between racial hatred and religious hatred onenote Jan 2015 #202

Criticism. Satire. Mockery. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #215

your post is ridiculous too. you could say the same for most ideas; it's beside the point in a ND-Dem Jan 2015 #205

Then you should leave this site immediately. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #216

why, because you say so? you seem to have that little problem. ND-Dem Jan 2015 #226

If you don't defend the rights of people you don't like tkmorris Jan 2015 #7

And it is stunning Boreal Jan 2015 #185

yeah, that's why all the arabs are being arrested, cause people are so eager to defend the rights of ND-Dem Jan 2015 #227

Your hypothetical paper probably already exists. (FOX news?) So what? immoderate Jan 2015 #11

There is a difference philosslayer Jan 2015 #14

Trolling Muslims is very bad. Killing somebody for trolling Muslims is worse./NT DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2015 #25

Trolling Muslims? oberliner Jan 2015 #47

Not into trolling Muslims or Jews or Blacks or Gays/NT DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2015 #67

How about mocking Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Scientology, or Mormonism? oberliner Jan 2015 #71

How about criticizing hateful bigots no matter what religion they hide behind? Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #83

What criteria do we use to establish these subjective standards? immoderate Jan 2015 #39

I would be just as disgusted as I was by Charlie Hebdo... NaturalHigh Jan 2015 #13

Thank you philosslayer Jan 2015 #18

That's cool. NaturalHigh Jan 2015 #30

Religion is comprised of hate actions which threaten my autonomy and human rights. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #33

It is of paramount importance that Hedbo continue with the exact type of commentary or randys1 Jan 2015 #36

Coming to this party a bit late Tansy_Gold Jan 2015 #81

You go, girl! A big 'AMEN' to this ^^^! Surya Gayatri Jan 2015 #209

I think you're missing a key point. bluesbassman Jan 2015 #80

I'm disgusted by Islam, Christianity, and Judaism's treatment of women. Arugula Latte Jan 2015 #93

It appears that most people haven't really read what you wrote. cpwm17 Jan 2015 #125

I am not "disgusted" by the actions of a left wing publication, no matter Desert805 Jan 2015 #151

I would stand with them... brooklynite Jan 2015 #15

Trolling Muslims or Jews or African Americans or Gays, et cetera Is a very bad look... DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2015 #16

Religions can and should be vociferously criticized oberliner Jan 2015 #48

When religions attack gay people are they 'trolling' us? Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #101

Of course if someone is disrespecting you, you have the right to disrespect him or her in return. DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2015 #152

It is interesting that you equate criticism of a person who claims to believe in Jesus to 'crapping Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #174

I so agree with what you've said Boreal Jan 2015 #187

There is a difference in crapping on Christ and crapping on this or that Christian DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2015 #188

Thread didn't go quite the way you'd though, eh? LanternWaste Jan 2015 #22

Oh quite the contrary philosslayer Jan 2015 #27

You're finally beginning to sound honest and sincere... LanternWaste Jan 2015 #28

Religion is a chosen belief system. Arugula Latte Jan 2015 #31

You had no idea? oberliner Jan 2015 #51

I personally don't think mockery is a progressive value philosslayer Jan 2015 #56

Mockery isn't a "value" at all. It's an art. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #60

Are you new to DU? oberliner Jan 2015 #61

Humor is one of the sharpest weapons against harmful and repressive ideologies. Arugula Latte Jan 2015 #79

Oh, you've missed out on so much. Dr. Strange Jan 2015 #175

Great examples! nt cyberswede Jan 2015 #192

Now you're being deliberately obtuse. arcane1 Jan 2015 #55

Whyever would you think otherwise? Codeine Jan 2015 #158

Let's see how intellectually honest the attackers of Charlie Hebdo are. KamaAina Jan 2015 #24

That's somewhat disingenuos when you look at what the Nazis did. CJCRANE Jan 2015 #34

Piss poor analogy. Here's a better one: MohRokTah Jan 2015 #29

That is a much better analogy. Will wait for the OP's answer... Desert805 Jan 2015 #153

Thread win. nt Codeine Jan 2015 #164

There are some things I find very offensive. LiberalAndProud Jan 2015 #35

I get what you are saying, if Charlie Hebdo drew derogatory pictures of blacks dilby Jan 2015 #37

Huh DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2015 #42

They are within the context of French sociery. CJCRANE Jan 2015 #53

Excellent point philosslayer Jan 2015 #58

There are three separate issues here CJCRANE Jan 2015 #66

This is grotesquely stupid. sibelian Jan 2015 #181

Bottom line -- If you don't like a particular controversial publication, don't buy or read it Blue_Tires Jan 2015 #38

Absolutely I would defend Nate Forrest to publish........ RationalMan Jan 2015 #40

False equivalence. Your example is an invested interest. CH is uninvested in a "right and wrong." nolabear Jan 2015 #41

This message was self-deleted by its author closeupready Jan 2015 #43

Religious belief is a choice. Race isn't...nt SidDithers Jan 2015 #44

Does Nate Forrest have the right to publish? Absolutely? Bonx Jan 2015 #45

Is this what they do all day over at Discussionist? (n/t) Iggo Jan 2015 #46

I love that his detractors always make sure to say.. Inkfreak Jan 2015 #50

They have the right to publish, just like other people have the right Retrograde Jan 2015 #52

Your premise is intellectually dishonest from the start. arcane1 Jan 2015 #54

The titles of the publications are irrelevant to the premise philosslayer Jan 2015 #57

Yet you took the effort to begin your post with a false comparison to the KKK n/t arcane1 Jan 2015 #59

You're avoiding answering his question BainsBane Jan 2015 #64

no, it doesn't. reread the op and the stupid question being asked. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #68

Okay, sort of. I think the point is BainsBane Jan 2015 #69

That wasn't the question. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #72

The question was would they champion it's republication on dozens of magazines BainsBane Jan 2015 #78

Yes, people will typically support ideas they support and not those they don't PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #94

I don't see how this is such a high concept for some. Rex Jan 2015 #97

People go to great lengths to avoid admitting that BainsBane Jan 2015 #126

You got it Boreal Jan 2015 #189

Thank you BainsBane Jan 2015 #190

Been beating my head against that same wall Boreal Jan 2015 #191

It's flamebait for the sole purpose of inventing reasons to bash DUers arcane1 Jan 2015 #70

I disagree BainsBane Jan 2015 #76

If that were the point of the OP, I would agree. arcane1 Jan 2015 #92

Quite the contrary philosslayer Jan 2015 #106

Apparently BainsBane Jan 2015 #128

The OP is a DUer BainsBane Jan 2015 #197

I support his right to publish BainsBane Jan 2015 #62

Wow...we agree on something. NaturalHigh Jan 2015 #111

I thought the same thing when I read your earlier response BainsBane Jan 2015 #112

Oh, you are ADORABLE!! Coventina Jan 2015 #63

Clever, too! Don't forget clever! arcane1 Jan 2015 #74

The ACLU defended the KKK. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2015 #65

DOH!!! Slam Dunk nt Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #75

but but but Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #118

that's what I picture every time this info is posted: Desert805 Jan 2015 #154

Now now... countryjake Jan 2015 #170

Yes, indeed. NaturalHigh Jan 2015 #218

Muslim mayor of Rotterdam tells Islamists to 'pack your bags' and 'f**k off' on TV Go Vols Jan 2015 #73

Good for him. 840high Jan 2015 #178

Yes. isobar Jan 2015 #77

Satirizing religion is not the same as race. Avalux Jan 2015 #82

Flip it around- someone bombs an abortion clinic and right wingers are "bombs are bad BUT" Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #84

Umm BainsBane Jan 2015 #89

Um, No, I don't think so. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #103

No, I think you've decided that if someone is killed for publishing something BainsBane Jan 2015 #105

Is anyone here keeping their mouths shut? Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #107

Because this OP and mine are victim blaming? BainsBane Jan 2015 #110

"my little group"? Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #115

Yes, your little group. zappaman Jan 2015 #121

Okay, that made me laugh. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #124

That request I can grant. BainsBane Jan 2015 #123

Wait...so people don't have the right to kill others over their own opinion? Rex Jan 2015 #90

So you don't really believe in freedom of speech. Okay, thanks for letting the rest of us know. Rex Jan 2015 #86

Unrec. FSogol Jan 2015 #88

What is the parallel here? DemocraticWing Jan 2015 #91

I second your every word. Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #100

excellent thought provoking post k/r nationalize the fed Jan 2015 #95

This is absurd. Here's a real world, highly applicable comapre and contrast opportunity. Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #96

Thank you. The OP's answer will be interesting. Desert805 Jan 2015 #155

I want to understand why it is that you think they're wrong... countryjake Jan 2015 #99

Its very simple philosslayer Jan 2015 #109

Seriously? PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #113

Well if the rules changed, someone didn't tell me philosslayer Jan 2015 #116

It's not Islamaphobia. Or bigotry. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #122

Yep. And the excuse for their bigotry, hatred and poor treatment prayin4rain Jan 2015 #117

Okay, please tell me what you consider vulgar or mocking about this... countryjake Jan 2015 #114

There are testicles on his head! zappaman Jan 2015 #147

No, you must be doubling down on your intellectual honesty. countryjake Jan 2015 #160

Never read a National Lampoon! zappaman Jan 2015 #171

A lot of people agree with Ken Ham that the Earth is only 6,000 years old. Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #127

If one person or 1.6 billion people think they have the right to murder a woman... countryjake Jan 2015 #134

utter crap Skittles Jan 2015 #198

Yes. Throd Jan 2015 #108

Your post fails to take into account that you can defend Charlie and disagree with his message Glassunion Jan 2015 #119

Charlie Hebdo's Biggest Problem Isn't racism-It's Punching Down--Western Society at Its Best & Worst KoKo Jan 2015 #163

That's a bad analogy; how about: someone publishes a cartoon of a drooling Ronald Reagan muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #120

Use two examples of ideas people agree with BainsBane Jan 2015 #131

Maybe you and the thread starter miss the point: many think some Islamic attitudes need criticism muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #136

Some attitudes are not an entire religion BainsBane Jan 2015 #139

And Charlie Hebdo doesn't attack an entire people muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #141

Touch�! n/t countryjake Jan 2015 #144

Many Muslims don't see it that way BainsBane Jan 2015 #194

"they don't see it that way" is not a sufficient excuse for giving a pass to bad attitudes muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #208

Is that why they depict Muslims Union Scribe Jan 2015 #200

They're cartoons - they depict loads of people as big-nosed muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #207

That's different because it is punching at a 45.01 degree angle. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #220

There is no constitutional right to going through life unoffended Warpy Jan 2015 #129

Wow. Has to be one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever seen. HERVEPA Jan 2015 #130

Reading through this thread it just stuns me.... Whiskeytide Jan 2015 #132

Bingo! +1 Glassunion Jan 2015 #143

+2 Kaleva Jan 2015 #161

Exactly. Lex Jan 2015 #173

This venerable old guy literally wrote the book on 'another's right to say something...' Surya Gayatri Jan 2015 #214

I suspect ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #133

I don't think so BainsBane Jan 2015 #135

Publish speech that insults human dignity. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #138

Free speech is honoring human dignity. prayin4rain Jan 2015 #137

Okay. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #140

Left Wing publications Desert805 Jan 2015 #156

Any speech that undermines human dignity... Whiskeytide Jan 2015 #146

Some context might be found in the fact that Rick Warren called gay people pedophiles who are Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #167

That's what it looks like to me as well. Union Scribe Jan 2015 #199

Race =/= Belief Codeine Jan 2015 #142

me.... mike_c Jan 2015 #145

The great man is making an unexpected comeback (Voltaire, that is...) Surya Gayatri Jan 2015 #212

so much utter fail in so few words... Desert805 Jan 2015 #148

More like apples to Jeeps PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #150

"damn right, i'd put those cartoons on the front page of every paper in the world" cherokeeprogressive Jan 2015 #157

Not very. ismnotwasm Jan 2015 #159

The OP bases its argument on a KKK rag selling out all over the world DFW Jan 2015 #162

In the end, the fact is that the one true punchline of good satire is the incredulous reaction of Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #165

There's a lot of speech I think is stupid and wrong-headed Lex Jan 2015 #168

We can dislike someone's speech and still defend that they have a right to say it. Starry Messenger Jan 2015 #186

Sure - I have no problem with them doubling down in response to a violent attack. cyberswede Jan 2015 #193

The people on here are being hypocritical. Everyone has their touchy subject. liberal_at_heart Jan 2015 #195

Best response on this thread! goldent Jan 2015 #204

Yawn. First, learn what an analogy is and then post a proper one. REP Jan 2015 #196

Get over it. ohheckyeah Jan 2015 #201

The kkk is itself a terrorist organization bluestateguy Jan 2015 #203

Let's hypothesis that all the historical evidence about the kkk (edited) Cerridwen Jan 2015 #210

Yes and Yes LostOne4Ever Jan 2015 #211

212 replies and 5 recs Skittles Jan 2015 #213

Oh, so all of this is a popularity contest? philosslayer Jan 2015 #219

LOL are you for real? Skittles Jan 2015 #221

Really? philosslayer Jan 2015 #222

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Skittles Jan 2015 #223

Exactly. nt ucrdem Jan 2015 #217

Reading through the replies as always, interesting, a good op, read some interesting responses, R AuntPatsy Jan 2015 #229

DU has become extremely anti-faith Prophet 451 Jan 2015 #231