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Fred Sanders

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23. Excellent article. Some cartoons are good, some are bad, but Charlie clearly detested double

Reply to uppityperson (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:06 PM

Jan 2015

standards most of all.

And the context of each at the time they were published means a lot.

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So I finally got around to looking at the offending Charlie Hebdo cartoons . . . [View all] markpkessinger Jan 2015 OP

I found this link elsewhere on DU, explaining some of them, please read it as we in USA are unaware uppityperson Jan 2015 #1

A start would be to eschew the clash-of-civilizations narrative n/t markpkessinger Jan 2015 #4

OK. Did you read the link I gave explaining the context of some of the awful caricatures? uppityperson Jan 2015 #12

In the 4 minutes between your post and his reply?... SidDithers Jan 2015 #97

maybe in the past? uppityperson Jan 2015 #107

Hello, in case you missed what I asked in the previous post you are replying to, did you look at uppityperson Jan 2015 #58

Excellent article. Some cartoons are good, some are bad, but Charlie clearly detested double Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #23

I have changed my mind over the last week, after reading the context of them. uppityperson Jan 2015 #28

It's critically important to read the explanations!!!! Thanks flamingdem Jan 2015 #82

oui et merci. I changed my mind over the last week after acknowledging I had no idea of uppityperson Jan 2015 #83

no 'jokes' directed at judaism in that article though and no context for any. it also gets ND-Dem Jan 2015 #85

Tnx for that great link. hifiguy Jan 2015 #133

thanks for the link. Liberal_in_LA Jan 2015 #134

I support the right to print it and I also find it offensive. n/t. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #2

Oooo, more 'buts'. I contend you likely did not understand the context of what you were seeing. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #3

Most issues are better understood when one considers the "buts" involved . . . markpkessinger Jan 2015 #7

ok, BUT did you look into the context of the drawings that you found racist or not? PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #13

That context does not render the cartoons a constructive contribution . . . markpkessinger Jan 2015 #14

Muslim is not a race. So, no, you did not. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #15

Okay, they're not a race . . . markpkessinger Jan 2015 #19

So you didn't look into context. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #21

You know, I have been very civil in these discussions . . . markpkessinger Jan 2015 #27

That's your perception. I find it lazy and dishonest to refuse to look into context in a matter like PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #45

It is how many people self-identify jberryhill Jan 2015 #22

Let's be clear- Moderate Muslims found it offensive and said so. KittyWampus Jan 2015 #46

Charlie Hebdo is not racist. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #47

And Moderate Muslims found it so. SO YOU ARE WRONG. KittyWampus Jan 2015 #49

Muslims are not a race. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #50

Oh, that's right. You think it's okay to offend Muslims but not blacks cause blacks are a race KittyWampus Jan 2015 #53

Words mean things. It's still not racist. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #54

You have a lot to learn. KittyWampus Jan 2015 #56

You need to learn what "racist" means, it seems. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #57

Do all their cartoons only target one group? kcr Jan 2015 #59

Still not racist. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #60

Is too! Nyah nyah! kcr Jan 2015 #62

because it mocks religion it's acceptable bigotry is what theyre saying belzabubba333 Jan 2015 #86

Wow, well said! Spazito Jan 2015 #65

I am a white male jberryhill Jan 2015 #72

being racist and offensive are different things. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #75

I'm a gay white male and I have had several straight people try to tell me those cartoons are Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #93

But Arabs are. And they mostly picked on Muslim ARABS. bravenak Jan 2015 #102

Most of the Muslims in France are not Arabs, they are Berbers from North Africa Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #108

They sure ain't white, though. I mentioned africa. They pick on Africans too. bravenak Jan 2015 #109

Wish I could rec this kcr Jan 2015 #48

I agree, it's amazing the anti-intellectualism it takes treestar Jan 2015 #105

As long as you're catching up, here's some additional reading. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #5

I might have missed it kcr Jan 2015 #29

Hint: it's in the one titled "Charlie Hebdo Isn�t Racist�It�s the Exact Opposite" PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #31

Yes. And I'm sorry, but I didn't see anything that made them not racist. kcr Jan 2015 #34

Which cartoons did you think were racist and I will spoonfeed it to you? PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #37

No thanks kcr Jan 2015 #38

Or you are by attributing qualities that do not exist. It's not racist. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #40

I thought I was being civil kcr Jan 2015 #41

yeah, kinda. It's a strong statement. Can you back it up or not? Desert805 Jan 2015 #112

Wondering if I took a wrong turn and ended up at The Discussionist kcr Jan 2015 #113

You called something racist, were presented with contradicting facts, doubled down, Desert805 Jan 2015 #114

What contradicting facts would those be? kcr Jan 2015 #115

CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING. Desert805 Jan 2015 #119

Indeed it is kcr Jan 2015 #120

You were asked to provide such context Desert805 Jan 2015 #128

Getting more Discussiony with each exchange kcr Jan 2015 #132

Just curious . . . brush Jan 2015 #130

Thanks for those links. They provide some context that I was missing. nomorenomore08 Jan 2015 #66

Exactly. With context, you may still disagree with them, but I think educating yourself on it PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #68

right here on DU people enjoyed pics of W as a chimpanzee, etc. nt msongs Jan 2015 #6

Wasn't around for that . . . markpkessinger Jan 2015 #16

Freedom of speech abelenkpe Jan 2015 #8

What has Paul McCartney come to? oberliner Jan 2015 #10

"He was apparently additionally upset by the fact that McCarthy is not French." nomorenomore08 Jan 2015 #36

Hear, hear. cilla4progress Jan 2015 #9

Should we be careful about how we make fun of Republicans here? oberliner Jan 2015 #11

There's a line, and there's context. cilla4progress Jan 2015 #17

I think that the CH cartoons had that context oberliner Jan 2015 #25

Um, yeah... jberryhill Jan 2015 #26

But none of those are problematic because they offend Republicans, are they? oberliner Jan 2015 #43

Kinda the point though jberryhill Jan 2015 #70

But no one worries about offending the targeted group, in this case Republicans oberliner Jan 2015 #117

That's key. We aren't worried about offending them, so we don't care. kcr Jan 2015 #121

Why don't we worry about that? oberliner Jan 2015 #122

I can only tell you why I don't worry about that kcr Jan 2015 #123

Again, cilla4progress Jan 2015 #80

Islam is one of the most powerful ideologies in the world oberliner Jan 2015 #116

I think that's a different point. cilla4progress Jan 2015 #124

Here's a simple concept for you- it's called punching up or down. Republicans control media KittyWampus Jan 2015 #51

Islam and Christianity are the two largest religions in the world oberliner Jan 2015 #52

Muslims tend to get blown to bits more often jberryhill Jan 2015 #71

Generally speaking by other Muslims oberliner Jan 2015 #118

I offer first Rick Warren punching down at LGBT people a month before the Inaugural and YOUR words Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #103

Republicans are never offended treestar Jan 2015 #104

And just because you "shouldn't" doesn't mean you can't... Works both ways... nomorenomore08 Jan 2015 #32

I thought of rec'ing this OP, but I'm honestly torn. nomorenomore08 Jan 2015 #18

You said it well. 3catwoman3 Jan 2015 #20

There are a handful of us saying the same or similar things Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #24

Thank you . . . markpkessinger Jan 2015 #30

I listened to NPR soon after the tragedy. Texasgal Jan 2015 #33

Agree. Not satire. ananda Jan 2015 #35

Would this one be OK? oberliner Jan 2015 #39

THAT is a great comparison, thank you. uppityperson Jan 2015 #55

Dick Cheney, a very powerful white American male is a great comparison? kcr Jan 2015 #64

No, the satiric cartoon. Is it like Charlie Hebdo's "grotesque lampoons in the worst sense"? uppityperson Jan 2015 #67

No. This punches up, like satire is supposed to. kcr Jan 2015 #69

Since CH was a small local Parisian paper, I doubt you or I knew all the contexts. Read this uppityperson Jan 2015 #74

True, but so far no one has shown a context that makes them not racist, bigoted or offensive kcr Jan 2015 #111

This OP is meaningless nonsense without you expanding further Augustus Jan 2015 #42

Context is something you don't seem to care for... MellowDem Jan 2015 #44

Society needs Heyokas Beringia Jan 2015 #61

I agree. We, the country that tortures people for pleasure, should be the ones who decry jtuck004 Jan 2015 #63

And we got vile racist terrorist Rush Limbaugh. That's free speech for ya! nt valerief Jan 2015 #73

They made fun of everyone and iandhr Jan 2015 #76

So does the KKK jberryhill Jan 2015 #78

I am Jewish iandhr Jan 2015 #84

A million people marching for liberty sure beats "Shock and Awe" in Yemen bhikkhu Jan 2015 #77

Birmingham Civil Rights Museum/Center Has a Wall of Racist Cartoons McKim Jan 2015 #79

So you agree there should be limits on "free speech"... truebrit71 Jan 2015 #81

Do you support the right cilla4progress Jan 2015 #106

Yes. I don't have to like what they have to say.... truebrit71 Jan 2015 #125

Even though they advocate for slaughtering cilla4progress Jan 2015 #127

I can't understand why . . . brush Jan 2015 #131

When you agree with the Pope, remember you are agreeing with a man who regularly insults Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #101

They wrapped themselves in the pages of CharlieHebdo Laughing Mirror Jan 2015 #87

Here's the link to the article you mention by the former CH editor: ucrdem Jan 2015 #90

Thank you, ucrdem Laughing Mirror Jan 2015 #96

De rien, de m�me, and thanks to all DUers in France ucrdem Jan 2015 #110

Majority-minority relations is a context you bring to this discussion carolinayellowdog Jan 2015 #99

That's what the crux of all this is for me Laughing Mirror Jan 2015 #100

The covers are appalling, and the cartoons inside are even worse. ucrdem Jan 2015 #88

Well, maybe it's a good thing that an ISIL related terror cell in France killed them Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #89

No. And Benghazi wasn't a good thing either. nt ucrdem Jan 2015 #91

"No" This I understand. "And Benghazi blah blah blah" Perhaps off-topic, please clarify Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #92

Paragraph 6. ucrdem Jan 2015 #95

Ah another "sure massacres are wrong but" Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #94

I wonder if people here can manage to do a thought experiment using a US cartoon? Do you dare? Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #98

If freedom of speech does not include things that are offensive, it's not freedom of speech. merrily Jan 2015 #126

Of course it's no reason to die , , , markpkessinger Jan 2015 #135

Nazis marching in Skokie were deliberately offensive to a minority that had escaped the Holocaust. merrily Jan 2015 #136

I agree with you JonLP24 Jan 2015 #129