General Discussion

JonLP24

(29,935 posts)

129. I agree with you

Sun Jan 18, 2015, 03:35 AM

Jan 2015

I don't know anything about their content or the satirical message behind their latest cover (I don't understand French) but early editions such as the "100 lashes if you don't (or do?) die of laughter" was a caricature on par on offensiveness as the Cleveland Indians.

I don't think depictions itself are a problem, this has been done in Muslim majority countries but dominant minority brutal cults are offended by any images or depictions even things as harmless "Mohammed Cat" from Bangladesh's leading dailies, if they are offensive then I can see them being reasonable offensive by civilians and organizations like Anti-Defamation League, NCAI who opposes race based high school to pro team names & mascots.

You also don't want to adopt an 'us vs team' approach or use a double standard. This helps ISIS & similar groups who rely heavily on propaganda & violence as apart of their idealogy, those that view it as confirming all a long what Charlie Hedbo has been saying (the more people make it about Islam, the more it confirms what their cults preach which includes ISIS whose leader proclaims himself to be leader of all Muslims).

France has always had a well documented & well known Islamaphobia problem so they always struck me as nation that simply reacts rather than understands the situation.

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So I finally got around to looking at the offending Charlie Hebdo cartoons . . . [View all] markpkessinger Jan 2015 OP

I found this link elsewhere on DU, explaining some of them, please read it as we in USA are unaware uppityperson Jan 2015 #1

A start would be to eschew the clash-of-civilizations narrative n/t markpkessinger Jan 2015 #4

OK. Did you read the link I gave explaining the context of some of the awful caricatures? uppityperson Jan 2015 #12

In the 4 minutes between your post and his reply?... SidDithers Jan 2015 #97

maybe in the past? uppityperson Jan 2015 #107

Hello, in case you missed what I asked in the previous post you are replying to, did you look at uppityperson Jan 2015 #58

Excellent article. Some cartoons are good, some are bad, but Charlie clearly detested double Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #23

I have changed my mind over the last week, after reading the context of them. uppityperson Jan 2015 #28

It's critically important to read the explanations!!!! Thanks flamingdem Jan 2015 #82

oui et merci. I changed my mind over the last week after acknowledging I had no idea of uppityperson Jan 2015 #83

no 'jokes' directed at judaism in that article though and no context for any. it also gets ND-Dem Jan 2015 #85

Tnx for that great link. hifiguy Jan 2015 #133

thanks for the link. Liberal_in_LA Jan 2015 #134

I support the right to print it and I also find it offensive. n/t. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #2

Oooo, more 'buts'. I contend you likely did not understand the context of what you were seeing. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #3

Most issues are better understood when one considers the "buts" involved . . . markpkessinger Jan 2015 #7

ok, BUT did you look into the context of the drawings that you found racist or not? PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #13

That context does not render the cartoons a constructive contribution . . . markpkessinger Jan 2015 #14

Muslim is not a race. So, no, you did not. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #15

Okay, they're not a race . . . markpkessinger Jan 2015 #19

So you didn't look into context. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #21

You know, I have been very civil in these discussions . . . markpkessinger Jan 2015 #27

That's your perception. I find it lazy and dishonest to refuse to look into context in a matter like PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #45

It is how many people self-identify jberryhill Jan 2015 #22

Let's be clear- Moderate Muslims found it offensive and said so. KittyWampus Jan 2015 #46

Charlie Hebdo is not racist. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #47

And Moderate Muslims found it so. SO YOU ARE WRONG. KittyWampus Jan 2015 #49

Muslims are not a race. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #50

Oh, that's right. You think it's okay to offend Muslims but not blacks cause blacks are a race KittyWampus Jan 2015 #53

Words mean things. It's still not racist. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #54

You have a lot to learn. KittyWampus Jan 2015 #56

You need to learn what "racist" means, it seems. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #57

Do all their cartoons only target one group? kcr Jan 2015 #59

Still not racist. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #60

Is too! Nyah nyah! kcr Jan 2015 #62

because it mocks religion it's acceptable bigotry is what theyre saying belzabubba333 Jan 2015 #86

Wow, well said! Spazito Jan 2015 #65

I am a white male jberryhill Jan 2015 #72

being racist and offensive are different things. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #75

I'm a gay white male and I have had several straight people try to tell me those cartoons are Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #93

But Arabs are. And they mostly picked on Muslim ARABS. bravenak Jan 2015 #102

Most of the Muslims in France are not Arabs, they are Berbers from North Africa Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #108

They sure ain't white, though. I mentioned africa. They pick on Africans too. bravenak Jan 2015 #109

Wish I could rec this kcr Jan 2015 #48

I agree, it's amazing the anti-intellectualism it takes treestar Jan 2015 #105

As long as you're catching up, here's some additional reading. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #5

I might have missed it kcr Jan 2015 #29

Hint: it's in the one titled "Charlie Hebdo Isn�t Racist�It�s the Exact Opposite" PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #31

Yes. And I'm sorry, but I didn't see anything that made them not racist. kcr Jan 2015 #34

Which cartoons did you think were racist and I will spoonfeed it to you? PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #37

No thanks kcr Jan 2015 #38

Or you are by attributing qualities that do not exist. It's not racist. PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #40

I thought I was being civil kcr Jan 2015 #41

yeah, kinda. It's a strong statement. Can you back it up or not? Desert805 Jan 2015 #112

Wondering if I took a wrong turn and ended up at The Discussionist kcr Jan 2015 #113

You called something racist, were presented with contradicting facts, doubled down, Desert805 Jan 2015 #114

What contradicting facts would those be? kcr Jan 2015 #115

CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING. Desert805 Jan 2015 #119

Indeed it is kcr Jan 2015 #120

You were asked to provide such context Desert805 Jan 2015 #128

Getting more Discussiony with each exchange kcr Jan 2015 #132

Just curious . . . brush Jan 2015 #130

Thanks for those links. They provide some context that I was missing. nomorenomore08 Jan 2015 #66

Exactly. With context, you may still disagree with them, but I think educating yourself on it PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #68

right here on DU people enjoyed pics of W as a chimpanzee, etc. nt msongs Jan 2015 #6

Wasn't around for that . . . markpkessinger Jan 2015 #16

Freedom of speech abelenkpe Jan 2015 #8

What has Paul McCartney come to? oberliner Jan 2015 #10

"He was apparently additionally upset by the fact that McCarthy is not French." nomorenomore08 Jan 2015 #36

Hear, hear. cilla4progress Jan 2015 #9

Should we be careful about how we make fun of Republicans here? oberliner Jan 2015 #11

There's a line, and there's context. cilla4progress Jan 2015 #17

I think that the CH cartoons had that context oberliner Jan 2015 #25

Um, yeah... jberryhill Jan 2015 #26

But none of those are problematic because they offend Republicans, are they? oberliner Jan 2015 #43

Kinda the point though jberryhill Jan 2015 #70

But no one worries about offending the targeted group, in this case Republicans oberliner Jan 2015 #117

That's key. We aren't worried about offending them, so we don't care. kcr Jan 2015 #121

Why don't we worry about that? oberliner Jan 2015 #122

I can only tell you why I don't worry about that kcr Jan 2015 #123

Again, cilla4progress Jan 2015 #80

Islam is one of the most powerful ideologies in the world oberliner Jan 2015 #116

I think that's a different point. cilla4progress Jan 2015 #124

Here's a simple concept for you- it's called punching up or down. Republicans control media KittyWampus Jan 2015 #51

Islam and Christianity are the two largest religions in the world oberliner Jan 2015 #52

Muslims tend to get blown to bits more often jberryhill Jan 2015 #71

Generally speaking by other Muslims oberliner Jan 2015 #118

I offer first Rick Warren punching down at LGBT people a month before the Inaugural and YOUR words Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #103

Republicans are never offended treestar Jan 2015 #104

And just because you "shouldn't" doesn't mean you can't... Works both ways... nomorenomore08 Jan 2015 #32

I thought of rec'ing this OP, but I'm honestly torn. nomorenomore08 Jan 2015 #18

You said it well. 3catwoman3 Jan 2015 #20

There are a handful of us saying the same or similar things Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #24

Thank you . . . markpkessinger Jan 2015 #30

I listened to NPR soon after the tragedy. Texasgal Jan 2015 #33

Agree. Not satire. ananda Jan 2015 #35

Would this one be OK? oberliner Jan 2015 #39

THAT is a great comparison, thank you. uppityperson Jan 2015 #55

Dick Cheney, a very powerful white American male is a great comparison? kcr Jan 2015 #64

No, the satiric cartoon. Is it like Charlie Hebdo's "grotesque lampoons in the worst sense"? uppityperson Jan 2015 #67

No. This punches up, like satire is supposed to. kcr Jan 2015 #69

Since CH was a small local Parisian paper, I doubt you or I knew all the contexts. Read this uppityperson Jan 2015 #74

True, but so far no one has shown a context that makes them not racist, bigoted or offensive kcr Jan 2015 #111

This OP is meaningless nonsense without you expanding further Augustus Jan 2015 #42

Context is something you don't seem to care for... MellowDem Jan 2015 #44

Society needs Heyokas Beringia Jan 2015 #61

I agree. We, the country that tortures people for pleasure, should be the ones who decry jtuck004 Jan 2015 #63

And we got vile racist terrorist Rush Limbaugh. That's free speech for ya! nt valerief Jan 2015 #73

They made fun of everyone and iandhr Jan 2015 #76

So does the KKK jberryhill Jan 2015 #78

I am Jewish iandhr Jan 2015 #84

A million people marching for liberty sure beats "Shock and Awe" in Yemen bhikkhu Jan 2015 #77

Birmingham Civil Rights Museum/Center Has a Wall of Racist Cartoons McKim Jan 2015 #79

So you agree there should be limits on "free speech"... truebrit71 Jan 2015 #81

Do you support the right cilla4progress Jan 2015 #106

Yes. I don't have to like what they have to say.... truebrit71 Jan 2015 #125

Even though they advocate for slaughtering cilla4progress Jan 2015 #127

I can't understand why . . . brush Jan 2015 #131

When you agree with the Pope, remember you are agreeing with a man who regularly insults Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #101

They wrapped themselves in the pages of CharlieHebdo Laughing Mirror Jan 2015 #87

Here's the link to the article you mention by the former CH editor: ucrdem Jan 2015 #90

Thank you, ucrdem Laughing Mirror Jan 2015 #96

De rien, de m�me, and thanks to all DUers in France ucrdem Jan 2015 #110

Majority-minority relations is a context you bring to this discussion carolinayellowdog Jan 2015 #99

That's what the crux of all this is for me Laughing Mirror Jan 2015 #100

The covers are appalling, and the cartoons inside are even worse. ucrdem Jan 2015 #88

Well, maybe it's a good thing that an ISIL related terror cell in France killed them Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #89

No. And Benghazi wasn't a good thing either. nt ucrdem Jan 2015 #91

"No" This I understand. "And Benghazi blah blah blah" Perhaps off-topic, please clarify Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #92

Paragraph 6. ucrdem Jan 2015 #95

Ah another "sure massacres are wrong but" Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #94

I wonder if people here can manage to do a thought experiment using a US cartoon? Do you dare? Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #98

If freedom of speech does not include things that are offensive, it's not freedom of speech. merrily Jan 2015 #126

Of course it's no reason to die , , , markpkessinger Jan 2015 #135

Nazis marching in Skokie were deliberately offensive to a minority that had escaped the Holocaust. merrily Jan 2015 #136

I agree with you JonLP24 Jan 2015 #129