General Discussion

Anatos

(179 posts)

296. You are despicable

Thu Dec 22, 2011, 10:15 PM

Dec 2011

The way you launch that "if you disagree you must be vile and reprehensible" stuff, just like the OP, it makes me downright proud to wear the label "loyal follower".

The US military is not paid by the government to 'kill other people'."

What on earth do they buy all those bullets and bombs and drones for, then?

"'When and if it becomes necessary'. Yes, and that is really the question raised when Bush/Cheney falsely claimed it was necessary to go around the world 'killing other people' while shredding the Constitution they swore to defend and protect. "

No, it isn't; the question raised when Bush/Cheney falsely claimed it was necessary is most obviously not 'when and if it becomes necessary'. Quite the opposite, because the question of whether his actions would have been justified if his claims had not been false was never examined, since his claims were false. Do you see where your error is? You can either condemn Bush for his policies, or you can condemn him for using false justifications, but you end up being less than rational and logical when you try to do both.

Sorry, painting me with a "Bush lover" tag isn't going to work any more than "loyal follower". I'm the open-minded, rational, logical one here, not you or kentuck. I know I goosed you all a bit with my defense of what you have been taught to loyally and uncritically insist is indefensible. Ya'll are a lot like the evangelicals, with the "anyone who tries to convince you the Bible isn't true is Satan" scheme, which is monstrously effective and preventing learning of all types.

But, yeah, if the President decides on a whim not to like someone and disappear them, it is still unconstitutional. Just not when it's not on a whim and because they're a terrorist.

We are still waiting for the proof that the killings of Al Awlaki and his teenage son were 'necessary'.

And hopefully you will be waiting a long, quiet, relatively peaceful life. Last I heard you weren't on any Congressional Select Intelligence Committee.

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Is this Democratic Underground? [View all] kentuck Dec 2011 OP

The whole country went right wing starting back during Reagan Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #1

I agree... kentuck Dec 2011 #3

If the Dems & OWS affect a schism liberalism will be dead for the duration of living memory n/t Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2011 #4

If OWS is ignored kenfrequed Dec 2011 #20

"If OWS is ignored" Charronxyz Dec 2011 #156

I agree, but... naturallyselected Dec 2011 #218

Then I guess the party operators... blackspade Dec 2011 #81

You think liberalism isn't already dead? MNBrewer Dec 2011 #85

Great analysis by Chris Hedges. Charronxyz Dec 2011 #167

Powerful. Yes, a must watch. gtar100 Dec 2011 #267

FYI: "...effect a schism...." xocet Dec 2011 #91

Schism? I think more like a revolution. RoccoR5955 Dec 2011 #135

What a wonderful post!! nt DocMac Dec 2011 #147

That list has a few Libertarian -ish memes in it. nt patrice Dec 2011 #159

and whats wrong with that PatrynXX Dec 2011 #160

OP promotes DIVISIVENESS amongst Democrats corelated with a list that many Dems would not patrice Dec 2011 #171

Can you list them by their numbers? The too Right Wingy things, that is. RUMMYisFROSTED Dec 2011 #214

Numbers: patrice Dec 2011 #226

These are by no means etched in stone... RoccoR5955 Dec 2011 #247

Apparently,something being "not as right wing as you might think" is acceptable only if it's not PO. patrice Dec 2011 #258

Bravo Anatos Dec 2011 #279

LOVE this! /\ nt Vanje Dec 2011 #217

"There are conservative as well as liberal minded people involved in this movement." Anatos Dec 2011 #275

I didn't think so. RoccoR5955 Dec 2011 #280

Right back at ya, Guy. Anatos Dec 2011 #281

WTF?!?! RoccoR5955 Dec 2011 #282

Oh, sorry, was that you? Anatos Dec 2011 #289

Who's David Kucinich? RoccoR5955 Dec 2011 #290

I disagree most fully. Chan790 Dec 2011 #222

"winning later is worth losing now" MNBrewer Dec 2011 #272

Maybe for you Anatos Dec 2011 #276

No long term thinking is a problem with Democrats, I guess. MNBrewer Dec 2011 #292

I'm making an exception Anatos Dec 2011 #297

I think the Dems had better pay close attention to Occupy. The problem I see now is... Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #32

It's really horrible schleping to see people and beg for money.... WCGreen Dec 2011 #79

Yes... we desperately need election reform. nt Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #80

Exactly. As long as lobbyists dictate policy b/c 1 million-dollar donor is as good as a million $1 DirkGently Dec 2011 #145

You've explained it perfectly! As long as elections require Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #295

I think Dems should pay close attention to Occupy because Reich Wingers are trying to take it over. patrice Dec 2011 #172

actually, I think they're just Paultards /nt Anatos Dec 2011 #277

Right wingers are going to take over protesting Wall Street? Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #294

May I? Anatos Dec 2011 #278

Yes, you may. :) Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #293

Not so much, sorry Anatos Dec 2011 #298

I think the Government went rightwing, the people just had no choice sabrina 1 Dec 2011 #28

You're right that it started with the govt. Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #39

I Too Live in Florida!! It's Almost Too Much To Take... ChiciB1 Dec 2011 #118

Things are not as bleak, I think. However, Americans have a tremendous capacity for Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #240

The Ron Paul campaign is all over Occupy. patrice Dec 2011 #174

Oh Stop! Vanje Dec 2011 #220

OWS, in case you haven't noticed, is not a dictator. All Occupations ARE their own thing. patrice Dec 2011 #227

Good. I'm glad he supports it. Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #241

It SURE IS... And I Carry A List Of Things That Ron Paul sFor! ChiciB1 Dec 2011 #246

Democrats were on that list, too. Clark needs to be honest. Madeline Albright is one of them! Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2011 #71

Link to thread? Re arguments in favor of NDA provisions -- That is depressing. Leopolds Ghost Dec 2011 #204

Let me get this straight Anatos Dec 2011 #283

I don't know where to begin, but I'll try starting with this: sabrina 1 Dec 2011 #285

You should begin by learning Anatos Dec 2011 #287

You continue to argue against yourself sabrina 1 Dec 2011 #291

You are despicable Anatos Dec 2011 #296

"You are despicable" sabrina 1 Dec 2011 #299

I disagree. The country did not go right, but the media told us that it did.... Scuba Dec 2011 #201

Well, then let's say the voters went right wing, whether they did it out of stupidity... Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #239

Are you eligible to run for office? tridim Dec 2011 #2

I have run for office before... kentuck Dec 2011 #5

I'm nowhere near pure enough to run for office. tridim Dec 2011 #11

A few? Loge23 Dec 2011 #107

Any one you know personally healthy enough of mind, ethics and body? LanternWaste Dec 2011 #61

Anyone ethically healthy enough (not just the appearance of being ethical) wouldn't want to run. Maine_Nurse Dec 2011 #96

I believe Elizabeth Warren to be true. DocMac Dec 2011 #149

... is this a litmus test? Or some requirement? fascisthunter Dec 2011 #114

New DU, same old memes PVnRT Dec 2011 #131

Why don't you don't want average Americans to run for office? tridim Dec 2011 #209

As with so many things Anatos Dec 2011 #288

I don't know what you are complaining about WI_DEM Dec 2011 #6

^ That seems to be what kentuck is referring to. jtrockville Dec 2011 #7

x2 AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2011 #41

Well if DU isn't critical enough for someone, it's hard to imagine the person can get enough critic treestar Dec 2011 #49

I think you missed the point treestar. jtrockville Dec 2011 #65

So don't go to freeperville treestar Dec 2011 #68

Absolutely. But it goes both ways. jtrockville Dec 2011 #69

I don't usually read the "Obama richly deserves to be dumped" type threads... redqueen Dec 2011 #89

Yes, sadly there are. In fact if you scroll up you'll see such a call right here. jtrockville Dec 2011 #97

I saw one here. redqueen Dec 2011 #101

CORRECT Skittles Dec 2011 #99

And that is exactly the problem I am having with this Democratic Underground kentuck Dec 2011 #8

'true Democrats' are like 'true Scotsmen', I suppose muriel_volestrangler Dec 2011 #9

I was asked to maybe go to Freeperland? kentuck Dec 2011 #10

"True Democrats" was your phrase muriel_volestrangler Dec 2011 #19

It's a minimal standard. kentuck Dec 2011 #21

That's because it's not really complaining about anything tangible LoZoccolo Dec 2011 #37

it's "complaining" about the rightward drift of the party as a whole paulk Dec 2011 #47

Not really. LoZoccolo Dec 2011 #48

if you don't think the party has drifted to the right paulk Dec 2011 #52

I'm not talking about whether or not the party has drifted to the right. LoZoccolo Dec 2011 #53

This is fascism. You are assuming that if someone does not agree with X, then they are Y, when patrice Dec 2011 #252

a.k.a. FALSE DICHOTOMY patrice Dec 2011 #253

Post removed Post removed Dec 2011 #170

Even the title is like LoZoccolo Dec 2011 #175

that seems rather over the top paulk Dec 2011 #261

Is it not a vicious personal attack to say that my postings are a vicious personal attacks? patrice Dec 2011 #262

Touch a nerve did I? Now, let me guess which one, hmmm . . . patrice Dec 2011 #263

looks like your post got "hidden" paulk Dec 2011 #266

How is it not a vicious personal attack for OP to imply that anyone who supports PO is blind? doesn' patrice Dec 2011 #264

Well post your litmus test. Swede Dec 2011 #12

It's simple... kentuck Dec 2011 #13

What precisely, and without post-hoc qualifiers or preconditions is a "true Democrat"? LanternWaste Dec 2011 #62

Actually, under our political system, anyone who registers as a Democrat is a "true Democrat." There totodeinhere Dec 2011 #122

The problem with your OP, Kentuck is that your premise itself is antagonizing. Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2011 #73

What do you find "antagonizing"? kentuck Dec 2011 #74

Please do not feign ignorance with me, kentuck! You know exactly what you are doing... Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2011 #142

Thanks. kentuck Dec 2011 #234

Trust me, there's nothing that YOU could ever do Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2011 #243

Pot kettle. You're doing what you're complaining about #6 doing. LOTS of people think Obama is a Dem patrice Dec 2011 #176

The difference, of course, is that the FReepers hate Obama for being a socialist Jackpine Radical Dec 2011 #55

I'm not. nt hack89 Dec 2011 #84

well that was a dumb post PatrynXX Dec 2011 #161

On the contrary...... HowHeThinks Dec 2011 #196

Perhaps we can disagree in a more civil manner elias7 Dec 2011 #216

Hopefully free speech in it's purest form will mainfest some day. Lint Head Dec 2011 #14

this is hilarious bigtree Dec 2011 #15

And obviously... kentuck Dec 2011 #16

Compared to those who find nothing to support for whatever reason. patrice Dec 2011 #179

So anyone who disagrees.............. HowHeThinks Dec 2011 #197

No you don't "got it". BOTH sides are doing this AND BLAMING the other side. Q. Why? A. DIVISION. patrice Dec 2011 #228

POOR logic. Do you assume that everything anyone says applies to everyone? The fact that patrice Dec 2011 #254

Except this time they have immunity from the rest of the majority Obama-haters. LoZoccolo Dec 2011 #34

So you are in favor of banning all the progressives on this board? sabrina 1 Dec 2011 #57

That's not what I said. LoZoccolo Dec 2011 #60

What's telling is the Puglover Dec 2011 #76

ASSUMPTIONS! I'm a Progressive/Liberal and I support President Obama. You & I see the PROCESS patrice Dec 2011 #177

I don't support or not support him. I have come to the conclusion that the president really sabrina 1 Dec 2011 #181

We agree to a significant extent. I want to do what is most effective about this problem: GET patrice Dec 2011 #184

Well, we do agree for the most part. I believe he will win. I won't be working for him or donating sabrina 1 Dec 2011 #188

Dems are more active around here lately. patrice Dec 2011 #190

funny.... a quote from a banned DU member fascisthunter Dec 2011 #117

So? LoZoccolo Dec 2011 #120

Finally, one of you admits you want a purge of all who don't march in lockstep PVnRT Dec 2011 #133

DU2 purged conservatives. LoZoccolo Dec 2011 #140

How was conservatives defined? Muskypundit Dec 2011 #185

We have them in the Democratic Party and they are far more welcome than progressives sabrina 1 Dec 2011 #194

It does seem odd. (nt) redqueen Dec 2011 #54

Anti-Obama and anti-Democrat aren't necessarily the same thing. At least I hope not. It would be a totodeinhere Dec 2011 #123

no... this is a reaction PatrynXX Dec 2011 #162

"you'll find the same number of party-hating sycophants here that there were on DU2" TELL IT Number23 Dec 2011 #168

You're right... SidDithers Dec 2011 #17

How much criticism does he deserve? kentuck Dec 2011 #18

I would say "specific" criticism would be a start. LoZoccolo Dec 2011 #30

Obama does deserves criticism. But nobody deserves the half-truths, selective quotation, hyperbole emulatorloo Dec 2011 #46

that's not the point- in my humbler then humble opinionl cali Dec 2011 #59

cali! Good to see you. I was wondering if you were still around. joshcryer Dec 2011 #132

The "Democratic Party" You're Looking For Never Existed... KharmaTrain Dec 2011 #22

Bullshit a2liberal Dec 2011 #87

If any of them were alive and in office today there would be plenty of vociferous criticism totodeinhere Dec 2011 #125

I can imagine lengthy discussion on those matters DocMac Dec 2011 #151

Yes, those were bad things a2liberal Dec 2011 #269

Internment camps? dmallind Dec 2011 #130

See my reply to totodeinhere a2liberal Dec 2011 #270

In a logical world, blanket statements are meaningless. sybylla Dec 2011 #202

I'm not sure how this relates to my post a2liberal Dec 2011 #268

Actually it is provable that the political system nadinbrzezinski Dec 2011 #111

You are wrong. I'm old enough to remember a different party. styersc Dec 2011 #128

Rick Perry, Trent Lott, Richard Shelby, Phil Gramm KharmaTrain Dec 2011 #134

If "open-minded, rational, logical comments" mean only the ones that agree with me 100%, LiberalAndProud Dec 2011 #23

+1000. Another clue to this OP's attitude is CakeGrrl Dec 2011 #103

Here's a problem that I see 7wo7rees Dec 2011 #24

I thought it was 'anti-Bush policies' that brought people here. I mean if he had been abiding by the sabrina 1 Dec 2011 #31

Well put. Nt 7wo7rees Dec 2011 #43

Many questions need to be asked.... And that's a good one... midnight Dec 2011 #138

Well maybe. Turbineguy Dec 2011 #25

Especially when "articles" from politico and breitbart get 100+ recs and end up on the front page... tjwash Dec 2011 #26

Post removed Post removed Dec 2011 #27

This thread would have been locked on DU2. LoZoccolo Dec 2011 #29

No, no, disagreement is a moral failing and a form of oppression. Robb Dec 2011 #35

I'm liking DU3 already. nt Modern_Matthew Dec 2011 #42

Gingrich or Obama. ? It may suck, but it is what it is. Vote Democratic, Occupy for change, Zorra Dec 2011 #33

Yep. It is our only hope. Change does not come from the ballot box. nt Modern_Matthew Dec 2011 #45

"piss-poor leaders" - BINGO emilyg Dec 2011 #36

If it is so obvious, so simple, so easy then why don't you run for office? grantcart Dec 2011 #38

Why? So he can half-assedly reform a system that in reality needs to be overthrown? nt Modern_Matthew Dec 2011 #44

I believe he said he has run for office. sabrina 1 Dec 2011 #193

The only Democrats that represent me are on the far left... nt Modern_Matthew Dec 2011 #40

The Democratic Party has a long history treestar Dec 2011 #50

The results of the last election cycle Bluenorthwest Dec 2011 #90

I'm not sure that the Democratic party of circa 2000 is really very different from... aikoaiko Dec 2011 #51

Some of you on this thread.... Stand and Fight Dec 2011 #56

Nope. Sorry. You've accidentally surfed onto another site whose name shall not be mentioned ... Bake Dec 2011 #58

1. Is this Democratic Underground? Yes. 2. Can we expect open-minded, rational, logical comments retread Dec 2011 #63

Sickening, isn't it? Wait Wut Dec 2011 #64

Not really. bvar22 Dec 2011 #67

Truly... kentuck Dec 2011 #72

+10,000 nt joshguitar Dec 2011 #78

Yes. I am amazed by the sheer volume of people that qualify you as Muskypundit Dec 2011 #187

Perfectly said bvar. sabrina 1 Dec 2011 #192

Wait, wut? girl gone mad Dec 2011 #88

What's telling is that this thread is allowed to remain open even though it is clearly attacking Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2011 #143

+1000 "If I were you I'd high-tail it to FDL where you'll be safe" Number23 Dec 2011 #165

I am disappointed in the attempts by some to use ridicule to stifle honest debate rhett o rick Dec 2011 #66

Barney Frank has been making a profound argument: It is UNFAIR to blame the collective Democratic Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2011 #70

Soooooooooooo true. Many Dems think it's a social club with dues. patrice Dec 2011 #182

"No difference" worked in 2000 ... just enough. LiberalAndProud Dec 2011 #183

Did you comprehend what I wrote or were you replying to someone else? Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2011 #199

I was agreeing with you. LiberalAndProud Dec 2011 #203

So far, I'm satisfied that debate and dissent continue to flourish here. dawg Dec 2011 #75

You fucking rock kentuck!!!! jannyk Dec 2011 #77

Hi kentuck.. Democracydiva Dec 2011 #82

Socialism. man4allcats Dec 2011 #83

Threads like this are making the Obama 2012 UnrepentantLiberal Dec 2011 #86

Truth over party ...unless you like being lied to. L0oniX Dec 2011 #92

no kidding quinnox Dec 2011 #113

I'm a Socialist Democrat, also known as a Democratic Socialist urbuddha Dec 2011 #93

YOU ARE CORRECT, KENTUCK Skittles Dec 2011 #94

Debate is healthy, but... dsharp88 Dec 2011 #95

+1 n/t jaysunb Dec 2011 #136

It's sure not the democratic party I grew up with that clearly represented "we the people." n/t RKP5637 Dec 2011 #98

I have no problem with the "Democratic" part of it. If I wanted "Non-Aligned Party Underground" that McCamy Taylor Dec 2011 #100

Don't know how old you are but... SomethingFishy Dec 2011 #102

That probably has a lot to do with it. redqueen Dec 2011 #104

It may have to do with regionality, too. LiberalAndProud Dec 2011 #109

Unlike some of the remarks you make in your own OP? CakeGrrl Dec 2011 #105

Can I mention that one of the least "democratic" people I can think of truedelphi Dec 2011 #106

A pat on the back and a kick in the ... Loge23 Dec 2011 #108

I think some folks have a hard time with the concept that even if one is a Democrat quinnox Dec 2011 #110

my 2.5 cents: what we are witnessing is a social evolution ala Americana 2011 2012. Its all part of opihimoimoi Dec 2011 #112

It's Just Really Horribily Bad! I've Been Floundering For Such A VeryLong Time ChiciB1 Dec 2011 #115

I should read the whole thread but am running so must just say, occupy the party. mahina Dec 2011 #116

While you're at it, take a look @ Democratic Socialists of America urbuddha Dec 2011 #119

This OP sounds like it's the same old DU to me - with the same old yadda, yadda. nt quiet.american Dec 2011 #121

Criticism is democratic, and this is Democratic Underground. ozone_man Dec 2011 #124

We need to remove the word Underground maybe? mmonk Dec 2011 #126

I believe in DU oldlib Dec 2011 #127

+1000 oxymoron Dec 2011 #150

If you are "seeing very little action", bvar22 Dec 2011 #235

I have certainly been out there working. oxymoron Dec 2011 #284

Thank You KT !!! WillyT Dec 2011 #129

Kentuck I'm of the mind that you should speak freely, other wise, there will be a time when midnight Dec 2011 #137

There might be a place for you IF you're not of the far, far, far left.... it's here...... a kennedy Dec 2011 #139

Exactly krucial Dec 2011 #141

Perhaps I should have asked...? kentuck Dec 2011 #144

So call them on it, then. Dewey Finn Dec 2011 #146

Criticism vs Backstabbing DonCoquixote Dec 2011 #148

The The truth. krucial Dec 2011 #152

Since 2000... PhoenixAbove Dec 2011 #158

Unfair DonCoquixote Dec 2011 #195

For the very reasons you state, the words progressive and liberal are now used to identify so many gtar100 Dec 2011 #153

Great post. Dewey Finn Dec 2011 #155

Obama's renomination is imminent. Will you be able to handle it? MjolnirTime Dec 2011 #154

well it's DU with a severe heavy dose of PatrynXX Dec 2011 #157

Who's been censored? LoZoccolo Dec 2011 #163

Thread has 185 replies, 156 recs and 3,637 views to date. Dewey Finn Dec 2011 #186

Persecution fantasies are annoying creeksneakers2 Dec 2011 #164

"open minded"? when YOU refer to "the loyal followers of our piss-poor leaders"? What's open minded patrice Dec 2011 #166

Democratic with a small D thescreaminghead Dec 2011 #169

We have plenty of good Dems to represent us... fadedrose Dec 2011 #173

They are weak and of limited talent and intellect autorank Dec 2011 #178

Anybody from Kentucky who has the nerve to say the Dems need a leader fadedrose Dec 2011 #180

That makes no sense. Whatsoever. Muskypundit Dec 2011 #189

If KY Dems have not manifested a functional leader, what is OP's expertise on the qualities of patrice Dec 2011 #191

Your logic is what needs to be examined. Kaleko Dec 2011 #198

Isn't Kentuck from Kentucky? fadedrose Dec 2011 #212

Re Kentuck's head: Anyone who thinks that likely does not understand our problem or does not care. patrice Dec 2011 #231

I completely understand Kentuck ewagner Dec 2011 #200

Me too!! This struggle is about what to DO about them that stands half-a-chance of being EFFECTIVE. patrice Dec 2011 #229

Nobody is on our side, it seems. Quantess Dec 2011 #205

I just can't understand you muriel_volestrangler Dec 2011 #206

Hello my friend Crewleader Dec 2011 #207

As a Dem I find I have Permission fredamae Dec 2011 #208

Post removed Post removed Dec 2011 #210

Post removed Post removed Dec 2011 #211

It all boils down to this - disndat Dec 2011 #213

*****************REC!!!******************** patrice Dec 2011 #232

DLC Underground. Jakes Progress Dec 2011 #215

why not move on to greener pastures then, Jake? MjolnirTime Dec 2011 #221

Lots of pastures out there. Jakes Progress Dec 2011 #223

^*****************REC!!!********************^ bvar22 Dec 2011 #237

democratic party is out of phase scentopine Dec 2011 #219

I'm not giving up on the way DU has been changed, just I continue to wonder, "Is it democratic?" ... MrMickeysMom Dec 2011 #224

K&R. Mr_Jefferson_24 Dec 2011 #225

There are "locksteppers" on both sides of this question - AND - there are cognitively free patrice Dec 2011 #230

I think you're on to something Anatos Dec 2011 #249

Thanks. kentuck Dec 2011 #236

No. It is the circular firing squad lefty version of the TeaNut Party bitching board thanks to you. RBInMaine Dec 2011 #233

Up to our neck in the Big Muddy... kentuck Dec 2011 #238

Amen /nt Anatos Dec 2011 #274

Another cynical hipster heard from Anatos Dec 2011 #242

Our leaders most definitely do not "ROCK!" dawg Dec 2011 #245

You haven't a clue Anatos Dec 2011 #250

Well Good. Here is a Group Photo for you! bvar22 Dec 2011 #251

Reid, Pelosi and Obama. Leadership just doesn't come better than that. Or does it? dawg Dec 2011 #257

I didn't say they were the only great leaders Anatos Dec 2011 #259

"the best we've ever had" dawg Dec 2011 #271

Mt. Rushmore is reserved for Presidents. Anatos Dec 2011 #273

I wonder the same thing from time to time Proud Liberal Dem Dec 2011 #244

What office did you run for? Major Hogwash Dec 2011 #248

Funny how not one of your friends in this thread will acknowledge THEIR destruction of EFCA 2.0 or patrice Dec 2011 #255

Funny how so many of your friends in this thread are so comfortable with Libertarian memes. patrice Dec 2011 #256

The idea is to fix what's broken, take over what has been usurped, rebuild rather than destroy. gtar100 Dec 2011 #260

I hear there's a better way to do it. n/t leeroysphitz Dec 2011 #265

I dunno DeathToTheOil Dec 2011 #286