General Discussion

merrily

(45,251 posts)

169. Is blowing a lead of 25, average, really very different from blowing a lead that got as high as 30?

Tue Jan 20, 2015, 04:54 AM

Jan 2015

Last edited Tue Jan 20, 2015, 05:32 AM - Edit history (1)

Besides, I never said she blew a lead that averaged 30. I said she blew a lead of 30. She did. After you pointed out the average the first time, I replied, "Whether she built it up or started out of the box with a solid 15 point lead, she had a 30 point lead relatively early on and blew it, along with every other early advantage she had." Also a correct statement.

At some point, she probably polled even lower than 15. Would averaging 30 and 0 and saying she averaged only 15 improve the reality? For me, the fact that she worked it up to 30 by March and blew it anyway only supports my position. Apparently you see it differently.

Her husband was President for 8 years, leaving office with a very high approval rating, staff, a donor list that would knock anyone's eyes out and on and on. No other candidate in history had any of that that, plus a 30 point lead. And she still blew it.

You seem to be saying--and perhaps I am mistaken in this interpretation--that Hillary loosing the 2008 Primary disqualifies her from being considered a good enough candidate to be trusted with the nomination in any future general election.

Nope. Never said that. I responded to a poster who was insisting that polls show that America wants Hillary as President, that she is our best hope of winning the general, etc. I thought the words I used to reply to that poster were very clear to anyone who reads the subthread. If I was vague or ambiguous without realizing it, please point to the specific language that is unclear to you and I will do my best to clarify, but I never said Hillary disqualified herself from being the nominee, nor would I ever say such a thing. That is not how Presidential hopefuls disqualify themselves or get disqualified.

I don't think it is fair to say Hillary can't beat Jeb Bush

My posts on this thread and others detail some of the reasons why I think her losing is likely. No clue why stating my opinion about a future election on a political message board is unfair.

It's certainly no more unfair than other posters claiming she will definitely win and giving no reasons to support their prediction.

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I support Hillary because she can bring change to our country [View all] Harmony Blue Jan 2015 OP

Hillary does love change. LawDeeDah Jan 2015 #1

And? RoverSuswade Jan 2015 #2

Yep, Wall Street LOVE$ her. Citigroup: "I think Hillary would be a great president." RiverLover Jan 2015 #13

85% of Democrats love her....Left Leaning Independents not so much! VanillaRhapsody Jan 2015 #52

Not everyone who opposes HRC is a "Left-Leaning Independent" Ken Burch Jan 2015 #158

Actually, that poll just said 85% wanted to see her run...not that they "loved her". n/t. Ken Burch Jan 2015 #166

85% agreed that she should run - that will include many who do not "love" her karynnj Jan 2015 #233

No, no! cloudbase Jan 2015 #46

Compassionate Corporatism? Tierra_y_Libertad Jan 2015 #3

What changes? mmonk Jan 2015 #4

You beat me to that question monk... MrMickeysMom Jan 2015 #18

Agreed. Change must mean something mmonk Jan 2015 #25

Change the curtains in the oval office. pa28 Jan 2015 #134

What do you think she will change? I see income inequality as the number 1 threat Autumn Jan 2015 #5

She might start charging less for her speeches GummyBearz Jan 2015 #276

Be careful what you ask for. What kind of changes? Bad ones? Like ending Glass Steagall? NAFTA? TheNutcracker Jan 2015 #6

she'll double down on bill's welfare 'reform' and end social security. ND-Dem Jan 2015 #151

I think she will do just fine if elected and will be more to the left then some here think. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #7

Don't question. earthside Jan 2015 #17

And where in my post did I say don't question? hrmjustin Jan 2015 #20

*Mic drop* eom BlueCaliDem Jan 2015 #22

How so? procon Jan 2015 #30

I think she understands where the party is. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #42

And the average American understands where she's been all her life. merrily Jan 2015 #51

And according to todays polls they want her to be president. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #53

Also according to 2007 polls. According to 2011 polls, even 2012, Obama could not beat merrily Jan 2015 #56

i think the people of our party want to win and want to go with a winner. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #60

Hillary is a winner? She had a 30 point lead in 2008 and blew it. Just like Martha Coakley.* merrily Jan 2015 #64

2016 is not 2008. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #70

But Hillary is still Hillary. (Her book tour was not in 2008, either.) merrily Jan 2015 #71

And the public wants her as president. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #75

You have now gone in complete circle. That says quite a lot. merrily Jan 2015 #77

Well if my responses bother you or bore you i am sorry. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #78

No, you are not. But my comment about your going full circle had nothing to do with merrily Jan 2015 #80

None of our possible candidates have shown that they can win imo. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #81

None of our possible candidates but Hillary have proven they can lose, either. merrily Jan 2015 #82

Well if they want to beat her they need to prove themselves. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #83

3rd time resting your argument on meaningless poll results. merrily Jan 2015 #87

I do live with the war results. I buried a cousin. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #90

I didn't tell you (or anyone) to live with the war results and you know it. merrily Jan 2015 #93

Use a tragedy! Goodnight and goodbye! hrmjustin Jan 2015 #94

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Jan 2015 #99

You think it is funny? hrmjustin Jan 2015 #100

well DonCoquixote Jan 2015 #108

I am sorry I don't have your wit or links. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #109

and indeed DonCoquixote Jan 2015 #111

She tied the popular vote in the primary so she was no failure. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #113

The popular vote is irrelevant in the Presidential, both the primary and the general. No partial merrily Jan 2015 #121

I am sorry but I am not going to continue with you anymore. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #122

Fine with me. That doesn't mean I can't post to point out fallacies in your posts, though. merrily Jan 2015 #125

You can do what you like, it is a free country. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #127

Yes, I know. Hence, my pointing out the fallacies in your prior post. merrily Jan 2015 #128

lol. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #129

I do heartily applaud your keeping your sense of humor after your claim was refuted so soundly. merrily Jan 2015 #130

Refuted i think not. All you are interested in doing is trashing Hillary and I want no part of it. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #131

Then you don't know when you've been refuted or know the difference between facts and trashing. merrily Jan 2015 #132

I may not be the brightest bulb here but i can see what you are doing. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #133

Refusing to see something for what it is doesn't mean you are not bright. merrily Jan 2015 #136

I think they get a bonus if they're the last poster in an exchange like this. Marr Jan 2015 #189

Some times, I keep going as long as they do, just to see how long they last. merrily Jan 2015 #191

That is low. implying I am a paid poster is low. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #198

Did no such thing. I specifically said I didn't know who was or was not a paid poster. merrily Jan 2015 #202

That bull! You might not have used my name but you did imply it. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #204

You're wrong and fact free. merrily Jan 2015 #208

You can try to talk yourself out of it but you still did it. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #211

Yes, you should know what I mean much better than I do. merrily Jan 2015 #213

You did what you did and it was clear. Goodbye! hrmjustin Jan 2015 #214

Thats ridiculous. your friend responded to me. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #197

"Your friend." LOL. merrily Jan 2015 #203

Well then try adding then. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #205

um.... merrily Jan 2015 #209

Never before spring 2008, when Hillary was not doing as well in the primaries as she should have, karynnj Jan 2015 #234

Most hillary supporter took the loss well. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #235

I agree - and it was a tough loss especially as it was close karynnj Jan 2015 #237

Well they ended up looking a bit ridiculous. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #238

DUers who admit to knowing what goes on at the DNC level and DUers merrily Jan 2015 #137

She started with a lead of about 15 points and then built it up. At its height it was averaging 25 StevieM Jan 2015 #149

"Hillary holds 30 point lead." merrily Jan 2015 #150

That was one poll. Her average lead, at its height, was more like 25 points. And I don't think she StevieM Jan 2015 #168

Is blowing a lead of 25, average, really very different from blowing a lead that got as high as 30? merrily Jan 2015 #169

To add to your comments, which I agree with, she had the Shaheen machine behind her karynnj Jan 2015 #236

Thanks. I had forgotten "You're nice enough" was pre NH vote. Sexism merrily Jan 2015 #246

If that poll wasn't bullshit, she'd be president *now*. Marr Jan 2015 #187

You are entitled to that belief but the party does not share it. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #201

You speak for the party now? merrily Jan 2015 #210

The polling is clear that the psrty wants her. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #212

Like 2008? No, it isn't clear, per all the posts about that on this thread from last night. merrily Jan 2015 #217

I thought you said you were not going to respond to me. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #219

Nope. That was you last night. 5 times, IIRC. I said I was not going to merrily Jan 2015 #220

Well i can't say it has been a pleasure but it has been informative. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #222

Doubt that it's been informative. Could have been. merrily Jan 2015 #224

Oh it was. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #225

"The party"? Marr Jan 2015 #253

My stuffed animals are actually alive. 5 cats. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #254

Okay. /nt Marr Jan 2015 #255

as left as bill. iow, not so much from the middle class goldwater girl. ND-Dem Jan 2015 #152

If she silently backed all of Bill's right-wing shit then, she can't be progressive now. n/t. Ken Burch Jan 2015 #160

She'll say whatever she thinks she needs to say to get elected but her latest campaign rhetoric, merrily Jan 2015 #175

She was first lady. The first lady does not oppose their husbands policies publicly. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #199

She was not First Lady after 2000. If she still can't oppose his policies publicly, merrily Jan 2015 #206

She hasn't even questioned them retroactively. Ken Burch Jan 2015 #270

Yeah right. Fearless Jan 2015 #8

One likely change under HRC is the US will go boots in first into the Middle East. leveymg Jan 2015 #9

Back to war? Even more "Free Trade"? Exactly what change do you expect? Motown_Johnny Jan 2015 #10

Wait. "Back to war?" We stopped? merrily Jan 2015 #218

Change... tridim Jan 2015 #11

Would you rather have the real thing, then? Jebbie Bush is running. BlueCaliDem Jan 2015 #23

Then, at least, run on that - "Not as bad as Jeb" - and don't insult us with the hopey changey djean111 Jan 2015 #26

Answer the question...would you rather have a Jebbie Bush then? BlueCaliDem Jan 2015 #31

You are asking that question as if it is a lock that Jeb or Hillary will be my only choices. djean111 Jan 2015 #35

Sorry to have to tell you, but at this point, those ARE our only choices. BlueCaliDem Jan 2015 #39

Are you saying that the TARP legislation was re-written after Obama took office? merrily Jan 2015 #164

Since the Treasury falls under the Executive Branch, they have flexibility how to oversee it. BlueCaliDem Jan 2015 #247

"With a Democratic Congress they were able to change how TARP was used." Again, are you saying that merrily Jan 2015 #248

I'm not as interested in TARP or how it changed when Obama took office. BlueCaliDem Jan 2015 #250

Thanks. I am curious, so, as I said, I will look into it more. As far as how much the Treasury made merrily Jan 2015 #252

Wikipedia has a detailed timeline (I can't vouch for its accuracy) so you might want to start there. BlueCaliDem Jan 2015 #258

Yes, of course I know about and remember Dodd Frank, but that is not numerous bills. merrily Jan 2015 #262

Okay. Now it feels as if you're nitpicking. I've given you links to a couple of sites BlueCaliDem Jan 2015 #266

Sorry you feel that way. I am not dismissing, just saying I am not ready to look into it today and merrily Jan 2015 #267

P.S. yes, I remembered correctly, "I am just a Bill," LOL! merrily Jan 2015 #263

P.S. At this point we have no idea what our choices will be. merrily Jan 2015 #167

Hillary is not the only Democrat in America. merrily Jan 2015 #176

Never claimed she was. But she IS the strongest, according to all the polls. BlueCaliDem Jan 2015 #257

The polls don't mean much. merrily Jan 2015 #260

At this point, the polls are telling a-political American voters a great deal. BlueCaliDem Jan 2015 #264

+100. it's all of a piece anyway: each lousy prez sets up the ground for the next one to ND-Dem Jan 2015 #155

Yes, that is exactly what those of us to the left of Corporate Hillary want -- Jeb LondonReign2 Jan 2015 #27

No, we don't want him. But IMO, Hillary can't beat him. And, IMO, even merrily Jan 2015 #101

I'll vote for her Bettie Jan 2015 #29

"More of the same" would depend on what Congress we help get her in 2016 should she win the nom. BlueCaliDem Jan 2015 #34

The problem with congress Bettie Jan 2015 #45

And a Dem President is the head of the Dem Party. The meme that the head of the Party has no sway merrily Jan 2015 #181

A Dem president can STOP terrible things from happening Bettie Jan 2015 #188

A Dem President leads his party and does have influence over them, merrily Jan 2015 #228

Why take a loyalty oath before she even announces, when she is not your favorite? merrily Jan 2015 #180

Oops, normally, I put the words "if she's the nominee" in these statements Bettie Jan 2015 #190

Even with that addition, my post holds. merrily Jan 2015 #195

Any Democrat can beat Mitt and Jeb. tridim Jan 2015 #40

Really? That's not what the latest CBS poll shows among Dems and Indies. BlueCaliDem Jan 2015 #41

That poll doesn't show head-to-head results, though. Ken Burch Jan 2015 #165

In every single head-to-head polls, SoS Clinton wins from all potetial candidates, both Republican BlueCaliDem Jan 2015 #244

Polls this far out are unreliable. merrily Jan 2015 #177

Yes. That's why I wrote that polls are snapshots in time. But we can't deny that each and every poll BlueCaliDem Jan 2015 #259

Yes, you can rightly deny all polls this far out, or at least not conclude they must be right or merrily Jan 2015 #261

Any Democrat should be able to beat Mitt and Jeb, if he or she really wants to. merrily Jan 2015 #182

Hillary will not beat Jeb. merrily Jan 2015 #54

IF that's true, we're screwed. eom BlueCaliDem Jan 2015 #58

Only if we keep acting as though Hillary is the only Dem out of maybe 75 million. merrily Jan 2015 #59

Do you have a better candidate in mind? Thinkingabout Jan 2015 #67

Irrelevant. There are good candidates. Hillary is not one of them. merrily Jan 2015 #69

Sure she is, it us relevent unless you are pulling for a GOP candidate. Thinkingabout Jan 2015 #76

Bullshit. My naming names or not is irrelevant to whether Democrats who can win exist and merrily Jan 2015 #84

Say whatever you like it only adds character to some, it does not change me in Thinkingabout Jan 2015 #88

Also bullshit. I've never used garbage from FOX. Don't watch it. merrily Jan 2015 #91

Yep, I' m right. Thinkingabout Jan 2015 #95

No, but that's never stopped you before and I don't expect it to stop you now or in the future. merrily Jan 2015 #96

Proving I am right huh Thinkingabout Jan 2015 #98

Yes, telling you you're wrong proves you're right. Just as "good" as your "logic" upthread. merrily Jan 2015 #104

Expect the next reply to be "I know you are, but what am I?". nt Guy Whitey Corngood Jan 2015 #118

Well, that would at least be cute merrily Jan 2015 #141

You're right. I set my expectations too high. Guy Whitey Corngood Jan 2015 #223

I understand. merrily Jan 2015 #226

NOPE. Thinkingabout Jan 2015 #148

says the person who used a right wing website to support her social security misstatements ND-Dem Jan 2015 #157

To be perfectly fair, he or she also used the guests on the Judge Judy show to support his fact free merrily Jan 2015 #178

Now this is where DonCoquixote Jan 2015 #110

As much as I admire and would love Senator Warren as president, she will lose. BlueCaliDem Jan 2015 #143

A sensible one. Thinkingabout Jan 2015 #147

Thank you, Thinkingabout. eom BlueCaliDem Jan 2015 #242

an analysis DonCoquixote Jan 2015 #172

Thank you for your analysis, although I disagree with it. eom BlueCaliDem Jan 2015 #243

In your opinion, Warren will lose. In my opinon, Hillary will lose. Let's hope someone else runs. merrily Jan 2015 #183

Well, I've been wrong plenty of times, so who knows? Maybe you'll get it right again. BlueCaliDem Jan 2015 #241

Or, I'll be wrong the second time. merrily Jan 2015 #268

...... snappyturtle Jan 2015 #12

Other countries, too! Man from Pickens Jan 2015 #14

Yep, even more American jobs would be outsourced. RiverLover Jan 2015 #15

What does that even mean to you? Change what? tkmorris Jan 2015 #16

What are some of the changes that you anticipate MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #19

This message was self-deleted by its author L0oniX Jan 2015 #66

Who'll, no doubt, immediately receive huge contracts from TV networks MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #68

A TV series in the making. L0oniX Jan 2015 #72

When have you ever made a similar comment about a male candidate? pnwmom Jan 2015 #85

It wasn't intended to be what you think but I'm sure you didn't struggle to take it that way. L0oniX Jan 2015 #89

Bias is often unintended and subconscious. n/t pnwmom Jan 2015 #92

I know you are for Hillary ...and you know I am not ...which has nothing to do with... L0oniX Jan 2015 #102

Be ready to be accused of sexism many more times. merrily Jan 2015 #107

Do you really not understand the sexism in the comment about Hillary's grandchildren? pnwmom Jan 2015 #119

Don't put words in my post. If you don't want to reply to what I actually posted, merrily Jan 2015 #123

I think we know what this is about and it's not sexism. It's Hillary supporters using sexism... L0oniX Jan 2015 #249

You are wrong. I am for whomever is chosen as the candidate in the primaries. pnwmom Jan 2015 #117

Anyone you hope will oppose Hillary in the primaries? merrily Jan 2015 #135

I'm still neutral, as I was the last time when I liked all three main candidates. pnwmom Jan 2015 #144

I plan to remain neutral until at least the filing deadline, the merrily Jan 2015 #227

Is there any candidate yet? n/t L0oniX Jan 2015 #105

Forget her words. I am sure she will adapt them to the current populist mood, just as Mitt has. merrily Jan 2015 #116

yeah, americans hate populism. hate hate hate. they like shit wages, no time off, and sending ND-Dem Jan 2015 #159

Clearly, you are not a pragmatic neoliberal who merrily Jan 2015 #163

This message was self-deleted by its author tkmorris Jan 2015 #21

Maybe she SHOULD be the catalyst for change Bettie Jan 2015 #24

Is that you, Chelsea? nationalize the fed Jan 2015 #28

I like stuff n/t whatchamacallit Jan 2015 #32

Like changing Bush 'n' Cheney into prison garb? Octafish Jan 2015 #33

+1 L0oniX Jan 2015 #73

Well, no Dem is going to do that. Them sleeping dogs gonna continue to be left to lie. merrily Jan 2015 #138

The changes she and her husband and other DINOS brought with H-1B expansion brought BAD change... cascadiance Jan 2015 #36

There is one thing she can change, her accent: LawDeeDah Jan 2015 #48

I don't think you can automatically call it a "fake" Southern accent Art_from_Ark Jan 2015 #120

If she employs the accent highly selectively in public, you can call it a put on accent, even if her merrily Jan 2015 #179

I employ an accent selectively in public Art_from_Ark Jan 2015 #193

None of what you said is inconsistent with my post. merrily Jan 2015 #196

I have not heard Hillary with this particularly strong accent before. LawDeeDah Jan 2015 #231

I haven't lived in the South for over 30 years. I can be with my family members down there for Autumn Jan 2015 #229

+100 ND-Dem Jan 2015 #161

Change such as? AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #37

Change like the six years she was on Walmart's Board of Directors, and failed closeupready Jan 2015 #38

and maybe some hope, too! frylock Jan 2015 #43

I can't tell if this is serious or sarcastic madville Jan 2015 #44

Either way it's a hit and run TBF Jan 2015 #49

Hillary has the best chance of beating Jeb Bush Harmony Blue Jan 2015 #221

Doesn't matter if neo-lib policies TBF Jan 2015 #232

She'll bring the status quo to our country JonLP24 Jan 2015 #47

I oppose her for much the same reason. hughee99 Jan 2015 #50

"...it should be Hillary Clinton" Says WHO? cherokeeprogressive Jan 2015 #55

What change are you speaking of? zappaman Jan 2015 #57

What change? Even more of 1985 policies? merrily Jan 2015 #61

LMFAO L0oniX Jan 2015 #62

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Jan 2015 #63

Me, too. Also, I note that the OP seems to have lost interest in this thread. merrily Jan 2015 #65

Damn, I thought I had accidently gotten onto a RW site and checked and I Thinkingabout Jan 2015 #74

Don't worry, when Warren supports Clinton she'll join the bunch under the bus. freshwest Jan 2015 #106

Yep you are probably right, it is funny when sone refer to 1985, was this during the years Thinkingabout Jan 2015 #115

An amazing amount of those labeled as *real Democrats* were GOP then. freshwest Jan 2015 #124

Warren is very good in her field of expertise, I just don't know where she will go when action just Thinkingabout Jan 2015 #145

Reagan? Hillary and Obama both put him on their respective list of 10 Best US Presidents ever. 1985 merrily Jan 2015 #186

Remember that she is going to win and some here just hate that. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #126

I think perhaps it for the lack of a candidate to really get behind. Thinkingabout Jan 2015 #146

I think they need to get over it. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #207

Is this satire? onecaliberal Jan 2015 #79

having been so dead broke, I suppose change is all she has! LawDeeDah Jan 2015 #86

That was funny. Kudos. merrily Jan 2015 #185

Hit n' run post. Tell us the changes. nt benz380 Jan 2015 #97

but it should be Hillary Clinton to become the catalyst of change in our country. DonCoquixote Jan 2015 #103

I agree. Just a technicality, but merrily Jan 2015 #140

Indeed DonCoquixote Jan 2015 #171

I did not read the wiki article to which I linked you that way. merrily Jan 2015 #174

This message was self-deleted by its author DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2015 #277

clinton = more of the same, the last 30 years' same ND-Dem Jan 2015 #162

LOL, I have no idea if this is a serious post. Nt Logical Jan 2015 #112

Click bait. nt benz380 Jan 2015 #114

Well, the OP apparently lost in interest in the thread. That doesn't mean the replies are all merrily Jan 2015 #139

This message was self-deleted by its author AtomicKitten Jan 2015 #142

"7" recs in 15 hours? That ought to tell you something... eom Purveyor Jan 2015 #153

She will do a fine job as President of the US, she has lots of experience in dealing with goverments Thinkingabout Jan 2015 #154

How can a militarist and a die-hard free trade supporter bring change? n/t. Ken Burch Jan 2015 #156

^^^^^^^^THIS FTW! DonCoquixote Jan 2015 #173

She bores a lot of people's asses off. saltpoint Jan 2015 #170

Clinton would have a similarly transitory role. joshcryer Jan 2015 #184

There is no way that eight years of centrist Gore would have led to an actually progressive Obama Ken Burch Jan 2015 #271

You give Bush a massive pass. joshcryer Jan 2015 #272

No I don't. Bush was horrible. Ken Burch Jan 2015 #275

I'll reluctantly support Clinton if she is the nominee but I don't expect Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #192

She going to force Walmart to pay a liveable wage? B Calm Jan 2015 #194

Any indication she tried? How about resigning from the board in protest? merrily Jan 2015 #216

I would vote for Hillary in the general, but I don't see her as an agent of change. Vinca Jan 2015 #200

she could but she won't. KG Jan 2015 #215

LMAO! Stellar Jan 2015 #230

So you have no response at all as to how Hillary can bring change to our country? Autumn Jan 2015 #239

Who would she have in her cabinet, especially in Finance and Defense? Would she remove all sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #240

Honest question: Has Hillary ever brought change to anything? Tatiana Jan 2015 #245

Her voice once changed into a southern drawl. n/t benz380 Jan 2015 #251

That's the second hearty laugh I've had reading this thread. Thanks. merrily Jan 2015 #269

Hillary has cosponsored several bills to increase the minimum wage and finally got it up to Thinkingabout Jan 2015 #256

Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2015 #265

change is one thing... wildbilln864 Jan 2015 #273

They must be minting deludinoids... sendero Jan 2015 #274