General Discussion

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)

31. i am against manifest destiny

Mon Jan 26, 2015, 05:11 AM

Jan 2015

but now that the white Americans have stolen all the red man's land, i guess we have to live with it. in the same vein, israel is a done deal, but accepting reality is not the same as lending one's support to the venture.

if id have had my way germany would have had to make way for a jewish state. at least then the palestinians would not be doing penance for the sins of the nazis.

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Anti-Semitism's increasingly thin and hard-to-see line [View all] Bonobo Jan 2015 OP

Number 2 is a dead giveaway. zappaman Jan 2015 #1

Zionism boils down to believing that Israel has a right to exist. So yes, those who do not believe still_one Jan 2015 #3

Zionism boils down to believing Israel has a right to discriminate against non-Jews. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #9

Donald, you know that there are many Arab Israelis, don't you? Bonobo Jan 2015 #29

There are, for now. Adrahil Jan 2015 #58

Actually, JDPriestly Jan 2015 #264

So what happens when.... Adrahil Jan 2015 #270

And yet I know Muslims who are Israeli citizens, while there are Muslim countires that do not Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #44

And yet, there were Jewish and Christian Palestinians not only pre-1948, but also now. PotatoChip Jan 2015 #145

There are currently 12 Arabs serving in the Israeli Knesset; 57 altogether. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2015 #61

No, Zionism is affirmative action for Jews who are indigenous.... shira Jan 2015 #166

Actually, "Zionism" has come to mean the right-wing police state to many people. Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2015 #67

"Come to mean"? Bonobo Jan 2015 #96

That's a fine example of right wing fake outrage nonsense designed to shut down discussion... Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2015 #102

What tactic? The tactic of saying "No, Spitfire, you don't get to re-define words." Bonobo Jan 2015 #103

Just passing on the info. I didn't say you should like it. Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2015 #104

That was "info"? Bonobo Jan 2015 #106

The pomposity is totally out of place.... Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2015 #107

The misuse of the word Zionism is precisely what I am talking about. Bonobo Jan 2015 #109

"Zionist" has been used as a pejorative but not necessarily against all Jewish people.... Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2015 #113

Untrue. Zionist is used generally to refer to any Jew Bonobo Jan 2015 #114

You need to focus on separating yourself from the right wing then.... Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2015 #143

I'm not sure it is.. Take a read here: Adrahil Jan 2015 #179

"The word 'Zionism' has no place anymore." Somebody needs to tell these guys: Comrade Grumpy Jan 2015 #139

On some level one could oppose Israel's right to exist treestar Jan 2015 #200

The British settlers who founded this nation acted far, far worse than anything Israel's done YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #253

True. I think it's a matter of might makes right. treestar Jan 2015 #272

Very good! I'll add... Behind the Aegis Jan 2015 #2

Big affirmative to the "Palestinians/Arabs" are Semites." one! Bonobo Jan 2015 #4

That one just got it's own thread. Behind the Aegis Jan 2015 #108

The thing that annoys me is the use of "Zionist". Bonobo Jan 2015 #110

It is the Jewish version of the word "thug." Behind the Aegis Jan 2015 #111

I think we are in complete agreement. Bonobo Jan 2015 #112

No, the opinions of non-Jews on what antisemitism is cannot be dismissed. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #10

I didn't say they should be dismissed. Behind the Aegis Jan 2015 #13

Between you and Bonobo JustAnotherGen Jan 2015 #24

I love your hugs! Behind the Aegis Jan 2015 #26

While you are technically correct... Fawke Em Jan 2015 #181

Agree with you Aerows Jan 2015 #194

Holocaust deniers I believe would also be considered antisemitic still_one Jan 2015 #5

I agree. But, not all Holocaust deniers (or those that minimize it) are cut from the same cloth. Behind the Aegis Jan 2015 #6

Yeah, oddly enough, I think some of that shit falls under the umbrella of people who think Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #38

"The fact is that Jews were also once very strong in the world of sports, the world of tailoring .." DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2015 #7

You should be a gay Jew. Behind the Aegis Jan 2015 #11

K&R. JDPriestly Jan 2015 #8

That's illogical. How about a nation for Wiccans? They are persecuted. McCamy Taylor Jan 2015 #19

Oranges are orange. Bonobo Jan 2015 #21

Right On bahrbearian Jan 2015 #55

Actually, the Puritans thought they were starting a country for Puritans. JDPriestly Jan 2015 #78

First one must admit there are Liberals and Conservatives over there too. Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2015 #12

Would you say it's a form of ideological conceit to suggest all the anti-semites are on the right? DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2015 #14

There are at least as many on our side. nt Bonobo Jan 2015 #15

Unfortunately, you'd be wrong leftynyc Jan 2015 #27

I say some on the Left are criticizing policy of the Right and being accused of being anti-semitic.. Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2015 #64

There always seems to be lots of sugar for THAT porridge. Behind the Aegis Jan 2015 #65

Do you consider Woody Allen, Jon Stewart, and Sarah Silverman to be Jewish or not? Electric Monk Jan 2015 #16

As a matrilineal Jew but practicing Christian that's my favorite question. DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2015 #17

As, I an official "matrilineal jew" but atheist FLPanhandle Jan 2015 #68

I'm not a geneticist but there's reams of research that suggests Jews share common genetic markers. DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2015 #69

I've seen the reports FLPanhandle Jan 2015 #70

You can practice whatever religion you want. I'm a practicing Christian. DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2015 #71

I've seen and read them all FLPanhandle Jan 2015 #72

"Discussed them with scientists" Bonobo Jan 2015 #85

That's insane talk. Of course Jews are closely related. Bonobo Jan 2015 #81

Quite right. DavidDvorkin Jan 2015 #86

Do u believe Jews are a people with a common history and culture? shira Jan 2015 #165

I most certainly do. nt Bonobo Jan 2015 #18

Israel has compared pretty much every Arab leader to Hitler shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #20

I will ask you what I always ask. Bonobo Jan 2015 #22

i am against manifest destiny shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #31

What you're really saying is that Israel is/was no homeland for Jews.... shira Jan 2015 #167

Yet another desperate haymaker from you... shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #206

Nazis? Zionism started before the 20th century 40 years prior to the Nazis... shira Jan 2015 #284

We can't undo Israel.... Adrahil Jan 2015 #60

good post shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #74

It was absolutely not "founded in injustice" oberliner Jan 2015 #140

I disagree. Adrahil Jan 2015 #144

Thanks for the response oberliner Jan 2015 #146

Oberliner, you are providing an education for those who choose to avail themselves of it. Bonobo Jan 2015 #158

Much appreciated oberliner Jan 2015 #159

I'm sorry... I think you view this with rose-colored glasses. Adrahil Jan 2015 #173

Fair enough oberliner Jan 2015 #210

I can drink to that! Have a great day! n/t Adrahil Jan 2015 #269

A pretty good .. sendero Jan 2015 #276

Yes, the colonists only wanted to rescue the poor ignorant natives... shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #208

That is definitely not true oberliner Jan 2015 #209

Quite a few people live in British colonies to this day... shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #213

As good as point as any to drop in. DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2015 #288

When you keep insisting that Israel was founded on injustice.... shira Jan 2015 #168

I think I'm being honest about what I think. Adrahil Jan 2015 #174

Good post. I don't believe you're an anti-semite at all... shira Jan 2015 #175

You have a great one too! n/t Adrahil Jan 2015 #178

"Nasser was compared to Hitler. Arafat. Ahmadinejad." Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2015 #51

There are 25000 Jews in iran shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #73

That does nothing to diminish his bellicosity towards Israel. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2015 #76

but it leaves your Hitler comparison dead in the water nt shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #77

Four quotes from Ahmadinejad YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #87

None of which justify a comparison to Hitler shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #214

Completely agree oberliner Jan 2015 #279

i believe the Jewish population in Iran is under 10 thousand now JI7 Jan 2015 #99

Nasser and Arafat never called for the extermination of Jews Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #80

Yeah... PCIntern Jan 2015 #137

They didn't... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #160

You of course were privy to their most private conversations PCIntern Jan 2015 #187

Behold, the average standard of debate here on DU nt shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #220

nasser's exterminationist rhetoric Mosby Jan 2015 #240

So the Israeli politicians that talk about shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #258

My guess Mosby sets the bar far, far higher when it comes to Israeli politicians... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #268

"cherry picked quotes" Mosby Jan 2015 #283

Yes, they're cherry picked, plus none of those are calling for the extermination of Jews... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #299

They are all on Wikiquote as well oberliner Jan 2015 #294

I took a lot at Wikiquote and they're different quotes in different order with different formatting. Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #301

Which Israeli politicians talk about doing something that would result.... shira Jan 2015 #285

When I get in lazy moods I'm using that 'debate' tactic from now on! Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #267

I agree that there is plenty of Godwinizing, sabre-rattling, bigotry, etc. on all sides... LeftishBrit Jan 2015 #63

This gets a rec from me JustAnotherGen Jan 2015 #23

Thank you, it's brave to say that. Bonobo Jan 2015 #25

Kind of JustAnotherGen Jan 2015 #34

Great, and very brave OP leftynyc Jan 2015 #28

My deepest thanks. nt Bonobo Jan 2015 #30

yes, incredibly brave shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #75

I didn't know there were so many American politicians on DU YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #89

I agree with 3, 4 and 5... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #32

There are 11 nations that use Islamic law out of 49 Muslim majority nations Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #49

I heard ugandas not a safe place Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #84

yes, christians are responsible for anti gay attacks/laws there JI7 Jan 2015 #116

I almost forgot India. Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #117

yes, india too, hindu fanatics push anti gay, anti women and other bigoted laws JI7 Jan 2015 #118

They only reintroduced the anti-gay law last year. Give them time... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #119

there are some states with laws on the books which make some things illegal JI7 Jan 2015 #120

I thought same sex relationships were legal in every US state... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #121

laws are not always enforced JI7 Jan 2015 #122

Indeed it is not safe. But I was not making a list of anti gay nations but was offering detail to Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #198

Actually, I was correct in saying 'no more than a small handful'... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #265

#2's a dead givaway!? That's a streatch. imthevicar Jan 2015 #33

so go ahead and answer it... PCIntern Jan 2015 #37

Easy rec. joshcryer Jan 2015 #35

Wonderful post! ColesCountyDem Jan 2015 #36

Frequently people condemn Zionism cpwm17 Jan 2015 #39

the jews are the natives Mosby Jan 2015 #244

That attitude you are displaying is exactly the reason why opposing Zionism is not anti-Semitic. redgreenandblue Jan 2015 #281

what attitude? Mosby Jan 2015 #282

AFAIC, anti-Semitism is like pornography: PCIntern Jan 2015 #40

+1. n/t shira Jan 2015 #169

Define "Zionists" and "right to exist". redgreenandblue Jan 2015 #41

Do you apply those standards to all nations? I can think of a fairly long list of nations that are Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #52

Well, for what its worth: redgreenandblue Jan 2015 #56

Then why is your crticism given to just one country, when others do all of the things you complain Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #62

We see it at DU when our tin-foilers promote the opinions... SidDithers Jan 2015 #42

+1 n/t tammywammy Jan 2015 #45

+2 YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #83

My only problem with Israel is the Netanyahu government. eom MohRokTah Jan 2015 #43

Mine too! LeftishBrit Jan 2015 #48

The things that I most often see as antisemitic are: LeftishBrit Jan 2015 #46

Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2015 #50

3 -- 2 -- 1 -- Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2015 #53

Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2015 #54

I wonder if UKIP voters hate Ed Miliband as much as the Israel-firsters do... shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #295

Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2015 #47

I certainly have been accused of being an anti-Semite... Adrahil Jan 2015 #57

Lulz...DU REC Jesus Malverde Jan 2015 #59

Israel does not = Jew Egnever Jan 2015 #66

So presumably you didn't bother reading the OP? tritsofme Jan 2015 #79

"Israel does not=Jew" YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #82

Wait.... so if I criticize Israel I'm an anti-Semite? Adrahil Jan 2015 #90

Good luck to you, my friend. You're gonna get flamed. nt Damansarajaya Jan 2015 #93

Criticism is fine. Demonization, defamation, lies, incitement & utter disregard.... shira Jan 2015 #170

Eyeroll Egnever Jan 2015 #100

Don't you know? People that love Paul Krugman, Jon Stewart, Glenn Greenwald and Alan Grayson really Chathamization Jan 2015 #94

I didn't realize that Israel was such an oppressive awful regime YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #251

Yes, the Israeli regime is oppressive and awful. So are the Egyptian, Saudi Arabian, Iranian, etc. Chathamization Jan 2015 #291

Ah, so you're of the "Israel is just as bad-if not worse-as its Arab neighbors" view YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #296

Eh...perhaps try responding to what I wrote instead of the made up things in your head? Chathamization Jan 2015 #303

Anti-Zionism is-by definition-the belief that Israel has no right to exist YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #88

No, it's not. Anti-Zionism is the belief that Damansarajaya Jan 2015 #92

The Palestinians were driven into the sea? oberliner Jan 2015 #105

They said: 'If the Arabs drove the Israelis into the sea, what would you call it?' Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #115

"Why is different for the Israelis to do it to the Palestinians?" oberliner Jan 2015 #133

You've never heard of Palestine refugee camps? Damansarajaya Jan 2015 #147

Indeed oberliner Jan 2015 #162

I'm confused Caretha Jan 2015 #176

Israel does integrate the Palestinians as full citizens oberliner Jan 2015 #289

Yes Caretha Jan 2015 #292

Yes oberliner Jan 2015 #293

Nice. Blame Jordan for Israel kicking people out of their own country. nt Damansarajaya Jan 2015 #286

Many people came to America because they were kicked out of their home countries oberliner Jan 2015 #290

Yeah, I guess you can read it like that... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #161

Agreed oberliner Jan 2015 #163

Hey there, Oberliner... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #164

anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism Damansarajaya Jan 2015 #91

Yup, and if you can point me to where I said it was, I'll buy you a bottle of wine. Bonobo Jan 2015 #95

Wow. "I'm not saying you're an anti-Semite, but you're an anti-Semite." Damansarajaya Jan 2015 #97

That's fine. But that does not fit under the category of Zionism or Anti-Zionism. Bonobo Jan 2015 #98

So what is your goal as an anti-zionist? shira Jan 2015 #171

That's what I would like to know. Bonobo Jan 2015 #216

My goal? Damansarajaya Jan 2015 #287

GREAT post MrBig Jan 2015 #101

Zionism, by now, is inseparable from the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. redgreenandblue Jan 2015 #123

Weirdly no one questions America's right to exist on territory already inhabited oberliner Jan 2015 #124

But what about in the early 1800s? Threedifferentones Jan 2015 #126

That's not what Israel is doing oberliner Jan 2015 #129

It is laughable how people always bring up this PHONY comparison. BillZBubb Jan 2015 #127

There is no comparison oberliner Jan 2015 #130

I guess in your mind that is a legitimate argument for Israel cpwm17 Jan 2015 #128

No it isn't oberliner Jan 2015 #131

You're turning logic on its head. cpwm17 Jan 2015 #135

Just to clarify a few points oberliner Jan 2015 #138

+1 Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #142

Oh please. Threedifferentones Jan 2015 #125

The founders of Israel were secular oberliner Jan 2015 #132

Don't confuse the anti-"Zionist" narrative with historical facts! YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #252

I believe I can answer one question you put forth... MrMickeysMom Jan 2015 #134

What would be your policy towards Israel if you were POTUS? oberliner Jan 2015 #141

My "vision"? MrMickeysMom Jan 2015 #149

I would apologize to the world for America's role in creating Israel. Threedifferentones Jan 2015 #183

+1 nt Damansarajaya Jan 2015 #148

"why didn't we give the Jews some German land?" oberliner Jan 2015 #150

Yep. Ignorant and utterly insensitive in equal measures. nt Bonobo Jan 2015 #156

So, North America belongs to the Natives indefnitely. Threedifferentones Jan 2015 #186

Huh? Threedifferentones Jan 2015 #184

The Zionist movement predates the Holocaust by 40 years oberliner Jan 2015 #188

And then after the Holocaust they got so much sympathy that the UK and the US made it happen. Threedifferentones Jan 2015 #190

Not even remotely close to reality oberliner Jan 2015 #191

+1000. It's remarkable that people don't know that thousands of Jews *already* lived in Palestine YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #250

The Germans deserved it, unlike the Palestinians treestar Jan 2015 #201

You missed the point by a lightyear. nt Bonobo Jan 2015 #202

Your point was only that you thought it was ignorant even to ask the question treestar Jan 2015 #205

When I say you missed the point, what I mean is Bonobo Jan 2015 #211

But the Arabs have to share an apartment with their rapist regardless? nt shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #219

Jews raped the Arabs? Bonobo Jan 2015 #222

Its your analogy nt shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #224

Yes, it was referring to what the Germans did to the Jews. Bonobo Jan 2015 #227

Are you contending that what the Jews did to the Arabs was a consensual fuck? shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #229

Nope, I would say this: Bonobo Jan 2015 #232

Moved out briefly? shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #248

Jews never actually left the apartment if we are going to be more accurate. nt Bonobo Jan 2015 #259

By that standard, a lot of peoples would be entitled to a lot of land treestar Jan 2015 #275

How did a large influx of Muslims cause more anti-Semitism? treestar Jan 2015 #274

It seems unsafe in Israel too treestar Jan 2015 #273

Jews are indigenous to Israel. It's their historical/cultural homeland.... shira Jan 2015 #172

So is the Upper Plains to the Sioux nation. Does all of ND, SD, MT, IA and MI belong to them? leveymg Jan 2015 #180

No one decent would dare call the Sioux "colonists" or "thieves" squatting.... shira Jan 2015 #182

What? You don't seem to understand. Threedifferentones Jan 2015 #189

So we need to abandon North America. Threedifferentones Jan 2015 #185

It's disturbing u can't find any antisemitism within points #1-5 in the OP. n/t shira Jan 2015 #196

Good post oberliner Jan 2015 #136

Postwar Refugee Crisis and the Establishment of the State of Israel Agnosticsherbet Jan 2015 #151

Shhh...don't harsh their buzz with facts. Behind the Aegis Jan 2015 #152

Peole who don't pesky facts. Agnosticsherbet Jan 2015 #154

B, but why didn't the Jooos just stay in Europe where their FROM? Bonobo Jan 2015 #155

+100 JustAnotherGen Jan 2015 #302

Is it so hard to figure out why maybe Jews wouldn't have been particularly comfortable in Europe? Bonobo Jan 2015 #153

After the war there were Pogroms in Poland. Agnosticsherbet Jan 2015 #157

But it was though Arabs would not be? treestar Jan 2015 #203

Actually their land was not taken from them, but part of the British Mandate after the collapse of Agnosticsherbet Jan 2015 #207

I love to see the education going on in this thread. Bonobo Jan 2015 #212

Your "education" sounds like extreme Kahanist right-wing talking points... shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #217

You disagree with Abbas then that not signing the UN's Partition Plan was a mistake? Bonobo Jan 2015 #221

Some more education for you shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #223

So another words Britain had the power to create a country is what you are saying, right? Bonobo Jan 2015 #226

They created a whole bunch of them shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #228

And yet apparently you feel they had no right to create Israel. Weird. nt Bonobo Jan 2015 #230

The British created Israel? nt shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #231

Are you denying Britain's role in the creation of Israel? Weird. Bonobo Jan 2015 #233

The term Palestine was an invention of Britain? shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #238

I never said the name was invented. Did you just think that would be a good way debate strategy? Bonobo Jan 2015 #241

You never said that the name was invented? shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #246

They invented its status as a nation. They didn't invent the name, of course. Bonobo Jan 2015 #247

Actually, the UN created these countries not the British or the French Agnosticsherbet Jan 2015 #236

The UN created Lebanon? shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #239

LOL, maybe you think Lebanon arose from the aether? Perhaps an exploding star? nt Bonobo Jan 2015 #242

The land was former Ottoman territory, a Turkish possession from 1516. Agnosticsherbet Jan 2015 #234

The Egyptians fought from May 13 to June 10, 1948. Agnosticsherbet Jan 2015 #235

You need to keep reading shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #257

Yes, it was taken from them shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #218

636 BCE treestar Jan 2015 #271

The Anti-semitic US Did not Accept them. Neither did Anti-semitic Europe. Agnosticsherbet Jan 2015 #280

Thank you for opening a dialogue about this libodem Jan 2015 #177

this is the video referred to shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #225

The ability of Jews to show their conscience without embarrassment is their strength. Bonobo Jan 2015 #237

So in other words, when Jews kick the shit out of Arabs, they're still great shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #243

Your personal attack and strawman style of debating has really become tiresome. Bonobo Jan 2015 #245

While we're discussing strawmen... shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #249

Yup, what I meant to say was the country was invented/created. Bonobo Jan 2015 #256

I was wondering how long leftynyc Jan 2015 #266

What a bizarre and racist thing to write cpwm17 Jan 2015 #277

Israel ought to be used to comparisons to Nazi Germany by now. Orsino Jan 2015 #192

here is one Auschwitz Survivor's perspective Douglas Carpenter Jan 2015 #193

So touching libodem Jan 2015 #199

An excellent OP Bonobo ismnotwasm Jan 2015 #195

Thank you. Bonobo Jan 2015 #204

I know ismnotwasm Jan 2015 #215

Reccing this one War Horse Jan 2015 #197

Great thread. Kicking and reccing! YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #254

Name calling and broad brush usually are signs of bigotry, for good or ill. merrily Jan 2015 #255

""Women are so much nicer than men"" Behind the Aegis Jan 2015 #260

Yes, and humans need to be seen as individuals, not as generics or prototypes. merrily Jan 2015 #261

I had to giggle at your example about the cows. Behind the Aegis Jan 2015 #262

The statement comes from this book merrily Jan 2015 #263

Lets see... NaturalHigh Jan 2015 #278

As has been pointed out before but bears repeating: there are citizens of Israel who are Muslims YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #297

My beef is with Israel, not Jews. If you choose to equate the two, that is your problem. I don't. redgreenandblue Jan 2015 #298

Sounds like you read for about 5 seconds and then decided to put in your .0001 cents. nt Bonobo Jan 2015 #300

So much truth here JustAnotherGen Feb 2015 #304