General Discussion

shira

(30,109 posts)

168. When you keep insisting that Israel was founded on injustice....

Wed Jan 28, 2015, 08:42 AM

Jan 2015

....what signal do you think you're giving to Israel's most hostile enemies?

Well before the Holocaust and after Turkey's defeat in WW1, the League of Nations unanimously agreed to a Jewish homeland in that area. At the same time, they split the Ottoman empire up into Arab states that exist to this day. If you want to argue ALL the states in that region were founded on injustice, you'd at least have a consistent argument.

The thing is that the League of Nations (and later United Nations) unanimously believed Israel was the Jews' historic and cultural homeland - not only based on the bible. This was something everyone knew and didn't even dream of denying.

IMO, those who say the Jews aren't a people indigenous to that land are not only deniers but are spewing antisemitic talking points, given the Jews themselves are and have been a people. Jews see themselves as a people. Same as any ethnic group sees themselves as a people. The whole point in denying that is to deny them their indigenous and equal rights to their homeland.

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Anti-Semitism's increasingly thin and hard-to-see line [View all] Bonobo Jan 2015 OP

Number 2 is a dead giveaway. zappaman Jan 2015 #1

Zionism boils down to believing that Israel has a right to exist. So yes, those who do not believe still_one Jan 2015 #3

Zionism boils down to believing Israel has a right to discriminate against non-Jews. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #9

Donald, you know that there are many Arab Israelis, don't you? Bonobo Jan 2015 #29

There are, for now. Adrahil Jan 2015 #58

Actually, JDPriestly Jan 2015 #264

So what happens when.... Adrahil Jan 2015 #270

And yet I know Muslims who are Israeli citizens, while there are Muslim countires that do not Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #44

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"Come to mean"? Bonobo Jan 2015 #96

That's a fine example of right wing fake outrage nonsense designed to shut down discussion... Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2015 #102

What tactic? The tactic of saying "No, Spitfire, you don't get to re-define words." Bonobo Jan 2015 #103

Just passing on the info. I didn't say you should like it. Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2015 #104

That was "info"? Bonobo Jan 2015 #106

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The misuse of the word Zionism is precisely what I am talking about. Bonobo Jan 2015 #109

"Zionist" has been used as a pejorative but not necessarily against all Jewish people.... Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2015 #113

Untrue. Zionist is used generally to refer to any Jew Bonobo Jan 2015 #114

You need to focus on separating yourself from the right wing then.... Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2015 #143

I'm not sure it is.. Take a read here: Adrahil Jan 2015 #179

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On some level one could oppose Israel's right to exist treestar Jan 2015 #200

The British settlers who founded this nation acted far, far worse than anything Israel's done YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #253

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Very good! I'll add... Behind the Aegis Jan 2015 #2

Big affirmative to the "Palestinians/Arabs" are Semites." one! Bonobo Jan 2015 #4

That one just got it's own thread. Behind the Aegis Jan 2015 #108

The thing that annoys me is the use of "Zionist". Bonobo Jan 2015 #110

It is the Jewish version of the word "thug." Behind the Aegis Jan 2015 #111

I think we are in complete agreement. Bonobo Jan 2015 #112

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Between you and Bonobo JustAnotherGen Jan 2015 #24

I love your hugs! Behind the Aegis Jan 2015 #26

While you are technically correct... Fawke Em Jan 2015 #181

Agree with you Aerows Jan 2015 #194

Holocaust deniers I believe would also be considered antisemitic still_one Jan 2015 #5

I agree. But, not all Holocaust deniers (or those that minimize it) are cut from the same cloth. Behind the Aegis Jan 2015 #6

Yeah, oddly enough, I think some of that shit falls under the umbrella of people who think Warren DeMontague Jan 2015 #38

"The fact is that Jews were also once very strong in the world of sports, the world of tailoring .." DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2015 #7

You should be a gay Jew. Behind the Aegis Jan 2015 #11

K&R. JDPriestly Jan 2015 #8

That's illogical. How about a nation for Wiccans? They are persecuted. McCamy Taylor Jan 2015 #19

Oranges are orange. Bonobo Jan 2015 #21

Right On bahrbearian Jan 2015 #55

Actually, the Puritans thought they were starting a country for Puritans. JDPriestly Jan 2015 #78

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Would you say it's a form of ideological conceit to suggest all the anti-semites are on the right? DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2015 #14

There are at least as many on our side. nt Bonobo Jan 2015 #15

Unfortunately, you'd be wrong leftynyc Jan 2015 #27

I say some on the Left are criticizing policy of the Right and being accused of being anti-semitic.. Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2015 #64

There always seems to be lots of sugar for THAT porridge. Behind the Aegis Jan 2015 #65

Do you consider Woody Allen, Jon Stewart, and Sarah Silverman to be Jewish or not? Electric Monk Jan 2015 #16

As a matrilineal Jew but practicing Christian that's my favorite question. DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2015 #17

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I've seen the reports FLPanhandle Jan 2015 #70

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I've seen and read them all FLPanhandle Jan 2015 #72

"Discussed them with scientists" Bonobo Jan 2015 #85

That's insane talk. Of course Jews are closely related. Bonobo Jan 2015 #81

Quite right. DavidDvorkin Jan 2015 #86

Do u believe Jews are a people with a common history and culture? shira Jan 2015 #165

I most certainly do. nt Bonobo Jan 2015 #18

Israel has compared pretty much every Arab leader to Hitler shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #20

I will ask you what I always ask. Bonobo Jan 2015 #22

i am against manifest destiny shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #31

What you're really saying is that Israel is/was no homeland for Jews.... shira Jan 2015 #167

Yet another desperate haymaker from you... shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #206

Nazis? Zionism started before the 20th century 40 years prior to the Nazis... shira Jan 2015 #284

We can't undo Israel.... Adrahil Jan 2015 #60

good post shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #74

It was absolutely not "founded in injustice" oberliner Jan 2015 #140

I disagree. Adrahil Jan 2015 #144

Thanks for the response oberliner Jan 2015 #146

Oberliner, you are providing an education for those who choose to avail themselves of it. Bonobo Jan 2015 #158

Much appreciated oberliner Jan 2015 #159

I'm sorry... I think you view this with rose-colored glasses. Adrahil Jan 2015 #173

Fair enough oberliner Jan 2015 #210

I can drink to that! Have a great day! n/t Adrahil Jan 2015 #269

A pretty good .. sendero Jan 2015 #276

Yes, the colonists only wanted to rescue the poor ignorant natives... shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #208

That is definitely not true oberliner Jan 2015 #209

Quite a few people live in British colonies to this day... shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #213

As good as point as any to drop in. DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2015 #288

When you keep insisting that Israel was founded on injustice.... shira Jan 2015 #168

I think I'm being honest about what I think. Adrahil Jan 2015 #174

Good post. I don't believe you're an anti-semite at all... shira Jan 2015 #175

You have a great one too! n/t Adrahil Jan 2015 #178

"Nasser was compared to Hitler. Arafat. Ahmadinejad." Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2015 #51

There are 25000 Jews in iran shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #73

That does nothing to diminish his bellicosity towards Israel. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2015 #76

but it leaves your Hitler comparison dead in the water nt shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #77

Four quotes from Ahmadinejad YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #87

None of which justify a comparison to Hitler shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #214

Completely agree oberliner Jan 2015 #279

i believe the Jewish population in Iran is under 10 thousand now JI7 Jan 2015 #99

Nasser and Arafat never called for the extermination of Jews Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #80

Yeah... PCIntern Jan 2015 #137

They didn't... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #160

You of course were privy to their most private conversations PCIntern Jan 2015 #187

Behold, the average standard of debate here on DU nt shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #220

nasser's exterminationist rhetoric Mosby Jan 2015 #240

So the Israeli politicians that talk about shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #258

My guess Mosby sets the bar far, far higher when it comes to Israeli politicians... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #268

"cherry picked quotes" Mosby Jan 2015 #283

Yes, they're cherry picked, plus none of those are calling for the extermination of Jews... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #299

They are all on Wikiquote as well oberliner Jan 2015 #294

I took a lot at Wikiquote and they're different quotes in different order with different formatting. Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #301

Which Israeli politicians talk about doing something that would result.... shira Jan 2015 #285

When I get in lazy moods I'm using that 'debate' tactic from now on! Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #267

I agree that there is plenty of Godwinizing, sabre-rattling, bigotry, etc. on all sides... LeftishBrit Jan 2015 #63

This gets a rec from me JustAnotherGen Jan 2015 #23

Thank you, it's brave to say that. Bonobo Jan 2015 #25

Kind of JustAnotherGen Jan 2015 #34

Great, and very brave OP leftynyc Jan 2015 #28

My deepest thanks. nt Bonobo Jan 2015 #30

yes, incredibly brave shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #75

I didn't know there were so many American politicians on DU YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #89

I agree with 3, 4 and 5... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #32

There are 11 nations that use Islamic law out of 49 Muslim majority nations Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #49

I heard ugandas not a safe place Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #84

yes, christians are responsible for anti gay attacks/laws there JI7 Jan 2015 #116

I almost forgot India. Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #117

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They only reintroduced the anti-gay law last year. Give them time... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #119

there are some states with laws on the books which make some things illegal JI7 Jan 2015 #120

I thought same sex relationships were legal in every US state... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #121

laws are not always enforced JI7 Jan 2015 #122

Indeed it is not safe. But I was not making a list of anti gay nations but was offering detail to Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #198

Actually, I was correct in saying 'no more than a small handful'... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #265

#2's a dead givaway!? That's a streatch. imthevicar Jan 2015 #33

so go ahead and answer it... PCIntern Jan 2015 #37

Easy rec. joshcryer Jan 2015 #35

Wonderful post! ColesCountyDem Jan 2015 #36

Frequently people condemn Zionism cpwm17 Jan 2015 #39

the jews are the natives Mosby Jan 2015 #244

That attitude you are displaying is exactly the reason why opposing Zionism is not anti-Semitic. redgreenandblue Jan 2015 #281

what attitude? Mosby Jan 2015 #282

AFAIC, anti-Semitism is like pornography: PCIntern Jan 2015 #40

+1. n/t shira Jan 2015 #169

Define "Zionists" and "right to exist". redgreenandblue Jan 2015 #41

Do you apply those standards to all nations? I can think of a fairly long list of nations that are Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #52

Well, for what its worth: redgreenandblue Jan 2015 #56

Then why is your crticism given to just one country, when others do all of the things you complain Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #62

We see it at DU when our tin-foilers promote the opinions... SidDithers Jan 2015 #42

+1 n/t tammywammy Jan 2015 #45

+2 YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #83

My only problem with Israel is the Netanyahu government. eom MohRokTah Jan 2015 #43

Mine too! LeftishBrit Jan 2015 #48

The things that I most often see as antisemitic are: LeftishBrit Jan 2015 #46

Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2015 #50

3 -- 2 -- 1 -- Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2015 #53

Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2015 #54

I wonder if UKIP voters hate Ed Miliband as much as the Israel-firsters do... shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #295

Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2015 #47

I certainly have been accused of being an anti-Semite... Adrahil Jan 2015 #57

Lulz...DU REC Jesus Malverde Jan 2015 #59

Israel does not = Jew Egnever Jan 2015 #66

So presumably you didn't bother reading the OP? tritsofme Jan 2015 #79

"Israel does not=Jew" YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #82

Wait.... so if I criticize Israel I'm an anti-Semite? Adrahil Jan 2015 #90

Good luck to you, my friend. You're gonna get flamed. nt Damansarajaya Jan 2015 #93

Criticism is fine. Demonization, defamation, lies, incitement & utter disregard.... shira Jan 2015 #170

Eyeroll Egnever Jan 2015 #100

Don't you know? People that love Paul Krugman, Jon Stewart, Glenn Greenwald and Alan Grayson really Chathamization Jan 2015 #94

I didn't realize that Israel was such an oppressive awful regime YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #251

Yes, the Israeli regime is oppressive and awful. So are the Egyptian, Saudi Arabian, Iranian, etc. Chathamization Jan 2015 #291

Ah, so you're of the "Israel is just as bad-if not worse-as its Arab neighbors" view YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #296

Eh...perhaps try responding to what I wrote instead of the made up things in your head? Chathamization Jan 2015 #303

Anti-Zionism is-by definition-the belief that Israel has no right to exist YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #88

No, it's not. Anti-Zionism is the belief that Damansarajaya Jan 2015 #92

The Palestinians were driven into the sea? oberliner Jan 2015 #105

They said: 'If the Arabs drove the Israelis into the sea, what would you call it?' Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #115

"Why is different for the Israelis to do it to the Palestinians?" oberliner Jan 2015 #133

You've never heard of Palestine refugee camps? Damansarajaya Jan 2015 #147

Indeed oberliner Jan 2015 #162

I'm confused Caretha Jan 2015 #176

Israel does integrate the Palestinians as full citizens oberliner Jan 2015 #289

Yes Caretha Jan 2015 #292

Yes oberliner Jan 2015 #293

Nice. Blame Jordan for Israel kicking people out of their own country. nt Damansarajaya Jan 2015 #286

Many people came to America because they were kicked out of their home countries oberliner Jan 2015 #290

Yeah, I guess you can read it like that... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #161

Agreed oberliner Jan 2015 #163

Hey there, Oberliner... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #164

anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism Damansarajaya Jan 2015 #91

Yup, and if you can point me to where I said it was, I'll buy you a bottle of wine. Bonobo Jan 2015 #95

Wow. "I'm not saying you're an anti-Semite, but you're an anti-Semite." Damansarajaya Jan 2015 #97

That's fine. But that does not fit under the category of Zionism or Anti-Zionism. Bonobo Jan 2015 #98

So what is your goal as an anti-zionist? shira Jan 2015 #171

That's what I would like to know. Bonobo Jan 2015 #216

My goal? Damansarajaya Jan 2015 #287

GREAT post MrBig Jan 2015 #101

Zionism, by now, is inseparable from the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. redgreenandblue Jan 2015 #123

Weirdly no one questions America's right to exist on territory already inhabited oberliner Jan 2015 #124

But what about in the early 1800s? Threedifferentones Jan 2015 #126

That's not what Israel is doing oberliner Jan 2015 #129

It is laughable how people always bring up this PHONY comparison. BillZBubb Jan 2015 #127

There is no comparison oberliner Jan 2015 #130

I guess in your mind that is a legitimate argument for Israel cpwm17 Jan 2015 #128

No it isn't oberliner Jan 2015 #131

You're turning logic on its head. cpwm17 Jan 2015 #135

Just to clarify a few points oberliner Jan 2015 #138

+1 Pooka Fey Jan 2015 #142

Oh please. Threedifferentones Jan 2015 #125

The founders of Israel were secular oberliner Jan 2015 #132

Don't confuse the anti-"Zionist" narrative with historical facts! YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #252

I believe I can answer one question you put forth... MrMickeysMom Jan 2015 #134

What would be your policy towards Israel if you were POTUS? oberliner Jan 2015 #141

My "vision"? MrMickeysMom Jan 2015 #149

I would apologize to the world for America's role in creating Israel. Threedifferentones Jan 2015 #183

+1 nt Damansarajaya Jan 2015 #148

"why didn't we give the Jews some German land?" oberliner Jan 2015 #150

Yep. Ignorant and utterly insensitive in equal measures. nt Bonobo Jan 2015 #156

So, North America belongs to the Natives indefnitely. Threedifferentones Jan 2015 #186

Huh? Threedifferentones Jan 2015 #184

The Zionist movement predates the Holocaust by 40 years oberliner Jan 2015 #188

And then after the Holocaust they got so much sympathy that the UK and the US made it happen. Threedifferentones Jan 2015 #190

Not even remotely close to reality oberliner Jan 2015 #191

+1000. It's remarkable that people don't know that thousands of Jews *already* lived in Palestine YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #250

The Germans deserved it, unlike the Palestinians treestar Jan 2015 #201

You missed the point by a lightyear. nt Bonobo Jan 2015 #202

Your point was only that you thought it was ignorant even to ask the question treestar Jan 2015 #205

When I say you missed the point, what I mean is Bonobo Jan 2015 #211

But the Arabs have to share an apartment with their rapist regardless? nt shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #219

Jews raped the Arabs? Bonobo Jan 2015 #222

Its your analogy nt shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #224

Yes, it was referring to what the Germans did to the Jews. Bonobo Jan 2015 #227

Are you contending that what the Jews did to the Arabs was a consensual fuck? shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #229

Nope, I would say this: Bonobo Jan 2015 #232

Moved out briefly? shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #248

Jews never actually left the apartment if we are going to be more accurate. nt Bonobo Jan 2015 #259

By that standard, a lot of peoples would be entitled to a lot of land treestar Jan 2015 #275

How did a large influx of Muslims cause more anti-Semitism? treestar Jan 2015 #274

It seems unsafe in Israel too treestar Jan 2015 #273

Jews are indigenous to Israel. It's their historical/cultural homeland.... shira Jan 2015 #172

So is the Upper Plains to the Sioux nation. Does all of ND, SD, MT, IA and MI belong to them? leveymg Jan 2015 #180

No one decent would dare call the Sioux "colonists" or "thieves" squatting.... shira Jan 2015 #182

What? You don't seem to understand. Threedifferentones Jan 2015 #189

So we need to abandon North America. Threedifferentones Jan 2015 #185

It's disturbing u can't find any antisemitism within points #1-5 in the OP. n/t shira Jan 2015 #196

Good post oberliner Jan 2015 #136

Postwar Refugee Crisis and the Establishment of the State of Israel Agnosticsherbet Jan 2015 #151

Shhh...don't harsh their buzz with facts. Behind the Aegis Jan 2015 #152

Peole who don't pesky facts. Agnosticsherbet Jan 2015 #154

B, but why didn't the Jooos just stay in Europe where their FROM? Bonobo Jan 2015 #155

+100 JustAnotherGen Jan 2015 #302

Is it so hard to figure out why maybe Jews wouldn't have been particularly comfortable in Europe? Bonobo Jan 2015 #153

After the war there were Pogroms in Poland. Agnosticsherbet Jan 2015 #157

But it was though Arabs would not be? treestar Jan 2015 #203

Actually their land was not taken from them, but part of the British Mandate after the collapse of Agnosticsherbet Jan 2015 #207

I love to see the education going on in this thread. Bonobo Jan 2015 #212

Your "education" sounds like extreme Kahanist right-wing talking points... shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #217

You disagree with Abbas then that not signing the UN's Partition Plan was a mistake? Bonobo Jan 2015 #221

Some more education for you shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #223

So another words Britain had the power to create a country is what you are saying, right? Bonobo Jan 2015 #226

They created a whole bunch of them shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #228

And yet apparently you feel they had no right to create Israel. Weird. nt Bonobo Jan 2015 #230

The British created Israel? nt shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #231

Are you denying Britain's role in the creation of Israel? Weird. Bonobo Jan 2015 #233

The term Palestine was an invention of Britain? shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #238

I never said the name was invented. Did you just think that would be a good way debate strategy? Bonobo Jan 2015 #241

You never said that the name was invented? shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #246

They invented its status as a nation. They didn't invent the name, of course. Bonobo Jan 2015 #247

Actually, the UN created these countries not the British or the French Agnosticsherbet Jan 2015 #236

The UN created Lebanon? shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #239

LOL, maybe you think Lebanon arose from the aether? Perhaps an exploding star? nt Bonobo Jan 2015 #242

The land was former Ottoman territory, a Turkish possession from 1516. Agnosticsherbet Jan 2015 #234

The Egyptians fought from May 13 to June 10, 1948. Agnosticsherbet Jan 2015 #235

You need to keep reading shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #257

Yes, it was taken from them shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #218

636 BCE treestar Jan 2015 #271

The Anti-semitic US Did not Accept them. Neither did Anti-semitic Europe. Agnosticsherbet Jan 2015 #280

Thank you for opening a dialogue about this libodem Jan 2015 #177

this is the video referred to shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #225

The ability of Jews to show their conscience without embarrassment is their strength. Bonobo Jan 2015 #237

So in other words, when Jews kick the shit out of Arabs, they're still great shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #243

Your personal attack and strawman style of debating has really become tiresome. Bonobo Jan 2015 #245

While we're discussing strawmen... shaayecanaan Jan 2015 #249

Yup, what I meant to say was the country was invented/created. Bonobo Jan 2015 #256

I was wondering how long leftynyc Jan 2015 #266

What a bizarre and racist thing to write cpwm17 Jan 2015 #277

Israel ought to be used to comparisons to Nazi Germany by now. Orsino Jan 2015 #192

here is one Auschwitz Survivor's perspective Douglas Carpenter Jan 2015 #193

So touching libodem Jan 2015 #199

An excellent OP Bonobo ismnotwasm Jan 2015 #195

Thank you. Bonobo Jan 2015 #204

I know ismnotwasm Jan 2015 #215

Reccing this one War Horse Jan 2015 #197

Great thread. Kicking and reccing! YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #254

Name calling and broad brush usually are signs of bigotry, for good or ill. merrily Jan 2015 #255

""Women are so much nicer than men"" Behind the Aegis Jan 2015 #260

Yes, and humans need to be seen as individuals, not as generics or prototypes. merrily Jan 2015 #261

I had to giggle at your example about the cows. Behind the Aegis Jan 2015 #262

The statement comes from this book merrily Jan 2015 #263

Lets see... NaturalHigh Jan 2015 #278

As has been pointed out before but bears repeating: there are citizens of Israel who are Muslims YoungDemCA Jan 2015 #297

My beef is with Israel, not Jews. If you choose to equate the two, that is your problem. I don't. redgreenandblue Jan 2015 #298

Sounds like you read for about 5 seconds and then decided to put in your .0001 cents. nt Bonobo Jan 2015 #300

So much truth here JustAnotherGen Feb 2015 #304