General Discussion

Jeff Rosenzweig

(121 posts)

366. None of which is especially responsive to what I said.

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 05:34 PM

Jan 2015

Nowhere did I imply that the Democratic Party is "united and Progressive." But neither is it your Boschian nightmare vision of a death match between "Conservatives" and "the Left." Not by a long shot. The fault lines in the party today are little different than they were during the Kennedy years, or the Carter years, or the Clinton years. Big tents are big, and they come with challenges and disagreements. Stop the presses.

And yeah, you could indeed go on, but please don't on my account. Essentially all you're doing is proving the point I was trying to make about your two-dimensionalizing. "Conservatives wants blind acceptance"? Who? What "Conservatives"? Can you name them? Who here, with maybe a few exceptions (trolls and/or people so self-evidently silly that nobody should take them seriously, let alone imagine that they constitute a "wing" of the party) "blindly trusts" the President? For that matter, how many people here "support the TPP"? One? Three? Six? Where are these barbarian hordes you're manning the barricades against?

I expect most people here are quite prepared to stand in opposition to this thing when they feel they have sufficient information on which to make an informed judgment. Senator Sanders is right, as usual; there's plenty of room for doubt, but until a finalized agreement exists, if indeed it ever does, we don't even know exactly what it is we're doubting. And I don't buy for a second the notion that "by the time we find out, it will be too late." Even with fast-track authority (and do you really believe this Congress is going to grant that to this President?) there would be three months to mobilize, demonstrate, lobby, protest and raise hell about it, and make it clear to elected Democrats that they'll lose our support if they give this thing their support.

Of course all this assumes that your worst-case scenario even turns out to be correct. You haven't yet made that case, for me at least.

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Pres. Obama tells Dems, on TTP: "Get informed, not by reading the Huffington Post" [View all] bigtree Jan 2015 OP

Well, he's dead on the money about HuffPo being an uninformative source. msanthrope Jan 2015 #1

deflection bigtree Jan 2015 #4

Yes. Aerows Jan 2015 #68

OK, Pres, publish the damn document so we can get informed!! nt kelliekat44 Feb 2015 #464

And if it isn't "finalized" Aerows Feb 2015 #477

Has he explained how these Democrats are supposed to 'get informed' when they have been sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #11

Excellent point. whathehell Jan 2015 #30

Every single member of Congress has the right to review the TTP drafts. Some have taken the msanthrope Jan 2015 #48

They won't let Grayson in there to read it anymore 2naSalit Jan 2015 #55

Really--did Grayson ask and was formally denied or was this a rumor? nt msanthrope Jan 2015 #58

Maybe you weren't in that particular loop? n/t Aerows Jan 2015 #113

Well, we know they have RIGHT, but we know, unless Wyden et al are all liars, they have been DENIED sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #62

Nonsense--Elizabeth Warren has been reading the drafts. You seem to be confused..... msanthrope Jan 2015 #65

The security procedures Aerows Jan 2015 #133

Right--they can't. Which is also standard procedure for many other pieces of legislation, like the msanthrope Jan 2015 #138

If a trade deal Aerows Jan 2015 #145

Aerows, can you name the other countries in this agreement? You think they might have security msanthrope Jan 2015 #152

Not sure I can, actually Aerows Jan 2015 #171

Um, Aerows....so secret that google has them? nt msanthrope Jan 2015 #184

So every member of Congress has the right to see them under extraordinary MannyGoldstein Jan 2015 #188

Walking to the Winder Building is not extraordinary, Manny. Finding out msanthrope Jan 2015 #190

So secret Aerows Jan 2015 #192

There isn't a final bill to review. And no....I'm really glad Ted Cruz's staffers can't review this msanthrope Jan 2015 #193

Oh Aerows Jan 2015 #199

It's a national security is because we've included other countries and nearly 500 outside sources msanthrope Jan 2015 #245

I see you offering Aerows Jan 2015 #248

Thank you, Aerows. I appreciate your well reasoned arguments in this thread. Enthusiast Feb 2015 #406

I've done my best Aerows Feb 2015 #481

I'm not, and I'm not glad Alan Grayson's Aerows Jan 2015 #206

"I'm really glad Ted Cruz's staffers can't review this" Joe Turner Jan 2015 #256

Elizabeth Warren was told that public opposition would be significant for the TPP if think Jan 2015 #235

Passing or not passing the TPP is a measure of our democracy. Enthusiast Feb 2015 #407

It's not my argument. You don't seem to know much about the history of this issue. The Congressional sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #300

There is today a world full of low wage workers even without the TPP. I do not think the intent of Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #309

Are you arguing then to make things WORSE? It is the job of our GOVERNMENT not of Global Corporatio sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #314

+1 treestar Jan 2015 #321

UNTRUE! The spoiled American consumer are at fault? Incredibly cheap food? Enthusiast Feb 2015 #410

If Elizabeth Warren would change her mind and decide to support the TPP, my support for her Enthusiast Feb 2015 #404

She's an important voice in this debate--one I listen too. The thing is, as I've written previously msanthrope Feb 2015 #488

I vote for snide remark intended to deflect....... SammyWinstonJack Jan 2015 #59

I guess they should read Aerows Jan 2015 #215

if this were a Republican President doing this exact thing, neverforget Jan 2015 #233

That has been our big mistake. Enthusiast Feb 2015 #411

These snide remarks just serve to piss me off more than I already am. Enthusiast Feb 2015 #403

Very condescending, as if members of Congress were children. Especially considering the YEARS during sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #438

Those in that DC bubble, Enthusiast Feb 2015 #439

I can understand bashing the Huff Aerows Jan 2015 #72

Every single member of Congress has access to the draft TPP. Some have taken the time to read msanthrope Jan 2015 #76

You sound awfully informed on this one Aerows Jan 2015 #85

Well, shit, Aerows....I learned that from DU..... msanthrope Jan 2015 #101

Do you have a financial adviser? n/t Aerows Jan 2015 #107

I do pretty well on my own--I tell my broker what to do. nt msanthrope Jan 2015 #109

Because you have all of the relevant information Aerows Jan 2015 #111

I don't have a financial adviser, Aerows. And I index. If I could turn prospecti into toilet paper msanthrope Jan 2015 #119

Honestly, I wouldn't be so self-assured to do without professional expertise Aerows Jan 2015 #127

Well, Aerows, sometimes ya' just gotta bet it all on red.... msanthrope Jan 2015 #130

Wow Aerows Jan 2015 #136

fast track means limited debate and zero amendments on a bill already signed by the President bigtree Jan 2015 #150

Yes--I've already said I think no amendments is a feature, not a bug on fast track. msanthrope Jan 2015 #153

Definite bug Aerows Jan 2015 #157

Do we really want the Republicans to have the ability to amend? msanthrope Jan 2015 #160

We shouldn't be having it at all, then Aerows Jan 2015 #172

+100 ND-Dem Feb 2015 #460

in support of fast-track you are blocking Democrats from influencing this trade pact bigtree Jan 2015 #175

I don't think the Democrats have the numbers to cloture amendments that would benefit. You forget.. msanthrope Jan 2015 #191

you have no way of knowing what amendments would prevail bigtree Jan 2015 #196

To block Republican amendments--yes. What amendment do you possibly see msanthrope Jan 2015 #197

but you don't really want any amendments bigtree Jan 2015 #198

Again...have you a TPP amendment that would get cloture? nt msanthrope Jan 2015 #241

If not Aerows Jan 2015 #252

the entire process is anti-democratic bigtree Jan 2015 #257

You absolutely Aerows Jan 2015 #299

+100 ND-Dem Feb 2015 #462

you're claiming, on one hand, that Congress has a right to review - on the other you dismiss them bigtree Jan 2015 #162

Yes--our Democratic legislators do have the right to negotiate, and have. msanthrope Jan 2015 #180

just 'review' a draft, not the final language; not so with numerous corporate representatives bigtree Jan 2015 #189

Well....I can't fix Article 2, Section 2, Clause 2...can you? nt msanthrope Jan 2015 #242

I can fix this quandry Aerows Jan 2015 #254

Lol, so in your opinion, this is how democracy works. Foreign Corporatins, NOT out Legislative Body, sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #492

My dear, you must take it up with the forefathers who wrote Article 2, Section 2, Clause 2. nt msanthrope Feb 2015 #495

The forefathers are dead. They would roll over in their graves, if they were to visit the country sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #499

It really puzzles me Aerows Jan 2015 #159

So you are betting on Red huh? Caretha Jan 2015 #284

Some sharing of the final draft with the public is overdue. I suppose there is a legal constraint if Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #128

They don't have a final. The drafts are available to every member of Congress, though. nt msanthrope Jan 2015 #132

But they can't take notes Aerows Jan 2015 #250

The final draft isn't negotiated yet, so it can't be "shared" (nt) Recursion Jan 2015 #276

In Reply 101, you cite as authoritative the source you dissed in Reply 1 as uninformative. merrily Jan 2015 #149

No--merely noting that it was used on DU. I suspect that even HuffPo can transcribe msanthrope Jan 2015 #155

Not exactly. Aerows asked you the source of your info and, as reply to Aerow's inquiry, you merrily Jan 2015 #173

Ta Da! annabanana Jan 2015 #158

Thank you. merrily Jan 2015 #174

Shame on you for actually being informed about the topic you're discussing!!... SidDithers Jan 2015 #202

Did you catch the part where Google is keeping secret the names of the other signatories? msanthrope Jan 2015 #243

The political naïveté on this board is sometimes stupefying... SidDithers Jan 2015 #244

Well..FDL tells them there's a problem, so there must be one. Funny...no one wants msanthrope Jan 2015 #246

No, they don't. Link to text. grahamhgreen Jan 2015 #322

I'm glad he told us that. Savannahmann Jan 2015 #118

Perfect (nt) malokvale77 Jan 2015 #230

Here is a bald fact. Aerows Jan 2015 #120

That's shocking. JackRiddler Jan 2015 #310

I don't consider it "access" Aerows Jan 2015 #353

Look here, Bub, if your Rep or Senator doesn't have a photographic memory it is on you TheKentuckian Jan 2015 #361

To quote Homer Simpson Aerows Jan 2015 #363

Pffft! Enthusiast Feb 2015 #412

Some things you only share with the general public, not loved ones FrodosPet Jan 2015 #147

Ad Hominem. FAIL. grahamhgreen Jan 2015 #318

What do you do for a living? How will this costly trade deal benefit you? grahamhgreen Feb 2015 #445

I love when POTUS tells it like it is. Ykcutnek Jan 2015 #2

Did he tell those Democrats HOW they can inform themselves considering they have been DENIED sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #14

They seem to know a lot about something that is so secret. Ykcutnek Jan 2015 #15

There have been leaks, damn whistle blowers again, and we know some of what is in there, relating sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #18

Yes, If the TPP is so great, why has it been kept SECRET for years? n/t whathehell Jan 2015 #33

lots of negotiations sabbat hunter Jan 2015 #200

Exactly. Aerows Jan 2015 #227

Every member of Congress can see it--they merely have to abide by the security procedures. nt msanthrope Jan 2015 #51

Yes, and several of those that have seen it (can't take notes 'natch) have... stillwaiting Jan 2015 #54

And I think we should listen to all voices---and thanks for confirming my point-- msanthrope Jan 2015 #61

As I replied before Aerows Jan 2015 #75

I don't know everything about it--but I do know who has access to it---every member of Congress, msanthrope Jan 2015 #80

And I can see why. Aerows Jan 2015 #97

Why do you think the committees have no access to experts? msanthrope Jan 2015 #104

This troubles me Aerows Jan 2015 #139

Right--and when you deal with 12 odd countries, that's how things work. Jeebus, they can take a msanthrope Jan 2015 #148

But there are SEVERE and frankly undemocratic restrictions. stillwaiting Jan 2015 #77

Oh, lordy....those restrictions have to do with the nature of the very democratic Congress and the msanthrope Jan 2015 #87

As I have said previously on DU this Agreement apparently includes quite a bit that goes well above stillwaiting Jan 2015 #116

What goes above is national security issues, which makes the secrecy all the more msanthrope Jan 2015 #129

Krugman changed his tune a bit a few days ago. From his blog... stillwaiting Jan 2015 #134

Oh--I agree with Krugman. We should have strong suspicions. But we shouldn't panic and lose our msanthrope Jan 2015 #142

You have strong suspicions but you are for Fast Track? nt stillwaiting Jan 2015 #144

Yes--I don't want Repuke amendments. Straight up and down. nt msanthrope Jan 2015 #156

LOL You're worried about "repuke" amendments? Oilwellian Jan 2015 #179

+100 ND-Dem Feb 2015 #463

+100000 Beyond funny. woo me with science Feb 2015 #498

Who, commenting on the TPP, has actually read the text of it? ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #112

Who at DU or who in Congress? merrily Jan 2015 #224

What bullshit. JackRiddler Jan 2015 #372

Tell me you are being sarcastic? He tells people to get smart on an agreement that rhett o rick Jan 2015 #31

Oh, that is so true. malthaussen Jan 2015 #42

Yes I agree. Sadly people are so desperate they will believe rhetoric. nm rhett o rick Jan 2015 #46

Every single member of Congress has the right to review the draft TPP. nt msanthrope Jan 2015 #63

It's all being done at the command of the Oligarch Rulers, rick... SidDithers Jan 2015 #221

Hi Sid. Good to see you. You seem to pop in to comment on my posts. rhett o rick Jan 2015 #237

Sid, do you side with Code Pink or Dipshit McCain? nm rhett o rick Jan 2015 #249

... Enthusiast Feb 2015 #414

They're not? Enthusiast Feb 2015 #413

I'm sure your Prime Minister and parliament are interested in your feedback and support. TheKentuckian Feb 2015 #501

Oh we can use that ol lightning fast freedom of information thingy...with no redaction's too. L0oniX Jan 2015 #289

Yep rhett o rick Jan 2015 #290

Then you should have a frowning face lark Jan 2015 #79

^^This^^ truebrit71 Jan 2015 #163

PLUS ONE, a huge bunch! Enthusiast Feb 2015 #415

What do you do for a living? How will this costly trade deal benefit you? grahamhgreen Feb 2015 #447

Ya know, I'm getting real tired of hearing about dry powder. malthaussen Jan 2015 #3

One thing I've learned about President Obama madokie Jan 2015 #26

Exactly...I like the guy personally, voted for him 5 times (1x for Senator) whathehell Jan 2015 #36

Playing dumb is no longer effective? I'm with you, malthaussen. Enthusiast Feb 2015 #416

In that what he said to me is madokie Jan 2015 #5

I think what we've been privy to doesn't measure up to the billing bigtree Jan 2015 #8

From what I see madokie Jan 2015 #34

What? Alan Greyson has begged for a copy. It's not available to Congress. rhett o rick Jan 2015 #50

I haven't even heard from Grayson in a while madokie Jan 2015 #57

Every single congressperson has access to the drafts. Not all of them have staff access msanthrope Jan 2015 #67

Anything this big and far reaching has to be debated Joe Turner Jan 2015 #280

Trust you and your nose about what? Sounds folksy but I'm not clear on what the point is. TheKentuckian Feb 2015 #446

Nonsense....Alan Grayson, like every single member of Congress, has the right to review msanthrope Jan 2015 #64

well, not in this case. Sen Sanders said members "have little or no knowledge as to what is in it,’ bigtree Jan 2015 #78

Much of this is still in draft madokie Jan 2015 #123

I'd be very concerned about the republican majority and corporate-minded Dems passing fast-track bigtree Jan 2015 #143

Hey, Jan, I've got news for you. It will remain unacceptable. Enthusiast Feb 2015 #417

This message was self-deleted by its author Enthusiast Feb 2015 #418

What do you do for a living? How will this costly trade deal benefit you? grahamhgreen Feb 2015 #448

What difference does that make madokie Feb 2015 #455

Deflection. One can only guess what motivates your position. How wi the trade deal benefit you, your grahamhgreen Feb 2015 #491

I agree with him completely. He has done nothing to think he's selling us down the river. Hoyt Jan 2015 #6

I know right!? No banker deserved to go to jail Phlem Jan 2015 #9

You mean like Ron Wyden? So 'just trust us' is good enough for the Trade Committee sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #23

In other words, since he has done nothing to explain how this will help the 99%, rhett o rick Jan 2015 #38

Hopefully any agreement will set the stage for trade in the 21st Century. I hope we are a major Hoyt Jan 2015 #56

More happy trade talk to put lipstick on pig. Elwood P Dowd Jan 2015 #81

Blind faith is not a trait of the Left. rhett o rick Jan 2015 #82

Blind fear of Obama seems to be, though. Hoyt Jan 2015 #99

so now Bernie Sanders is just like Chicken Little? frylock Jan 2015 #204

None on the Left "fear" Obama, they just want him to be accountable as any rhett o rick Jan 2015 #216

He's been accountable, but never good enough for some. Hoyt Jan 2015 #222

When we find ourselves with millions of our children living in poverty, it isn't good enough rhett o rick Jan 2015 #226

Candidate Obama said that he saw the damage done by NAFTA. Enthusiast Jan 2015 #325

Those that support the President will not speak to facts only tell us to have Faith. nm rhett o rick Jan 2015 #326

I used to have great faith in the President. Enthusiast Jan 2015 #336

Canada and Mexico are part of the deal -- that would change/replace NAFTA. He's crafty ain't he. Hoyt Jan 2015 #337

Tax the hell out of them? Enthusiast Jan 2015 #342

Is that all you have to post. What about fact you totally missed that TPP IS REDOING NAFTA? Hoyt Jan 2015 #343

The NAFTA provisions will probably get worse. Enthusiast Jan 2015 #347

Why do you think that? I agree things aren't as well as they were a few decades ago, but it Hoyt Jan 2015 #348

It is because of NAFTA. NAFTA contributed to the Race to the Bottom. If the President continues Enthusiast Feb 2015 #401

I think NAFTA was more trying to preserve what we had and slow your so-called "race to the bottom." Hoyt Feb 2015 #440

I would believe what I want rather than what the corporations wish me to believe. Enthusiast Feb 2015 #441

and there sure is a surplus of lackeys ND-Dem Feb 2015 #465

It must pay well. Enthusiast Feb 2015 #474

I'm quite sure it does for many; especially the lawyers and TV commentators. ND-Dem Feb 2015 #476

But we should have blind faith in treestar Jan 2015 #323

And if it's not a great deal, we can always blame it on someone else. merrily Jan 2015 #217

Not participating in the trade agreement, at this point, gets us nowhere. Hoyt Jan 2015 #223

And you know that how? You also don't know where participating will get us. merrily Jan 2015 #225

Well, I am sure letting the world pass us by -- by sitting on the sidelines -- won't help us. Hoyt Jan 2015 #339

With the working class of the US as martyrs to global capitalism Populist_Prole Jan 2015 #349

Doing nothing won't help, sorry. Plus, there are working class people in other countries too. Hoyt Jan 2015 #351

Doing nothing is better than doing something bad Populist_Prole Jan 2015 #358

yes; let's all work for peanuts together! ND-Dem Feb 2015 #466

The TPP would raise standards, but I get a lot of folks don't care about that. Hoyt Feb 2015 #472

Right, that's why wages & benefits are going down; because free trade raises standards! ND-Dem Feb 2015 #473

Not because of trade agreements. Hoyt Feb 2015 #482

why then ND-Dem Feb 2015 #483

When will he stand up for US workers and against the interests of multinational corporations? Enthusiast Feb 2015 #420

What do you do for a living? How will this costly trade deal benefit you? grahamhgreen Feb 2015 #449

I believe Obama. End of rant. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #7

He's certainly more credible than the quacks who are spreading TPP disinformation. Ykcutnek Jan 2015 #10

Who are these "quacks" who are spreading TPP Disinfo? KoKo Jan 2015 #17

The various Anti-TPP sites list them as endorsements. Ykcutnek Jan 2015 #20

vs the reactionary neo liberal posters that support this shit Ichingcarpenter Jan 2015 #37

I'm with you and Grayson and Sanders and Warren. merrily Jan 2015 #231

+1 Enthusiast Feb 2015 #421

So you can't back up your statement? How do you know that the information they are spreading rhett o rick Jan 2015 #45

"Blind faith isn't Democratic." Should be written in stone. Enthusiast Feb 2015 #422

it should be a simple task to cite a few examples frylock Jan 2015 #205

Well, I would not call MannyGoldstein a "quack", but he did make a very serious mistake msanthrope Jan 2015 #69

I have no problems blaming him. If he's spreading that disinformation BlueCaliDem Jan 2015 #110

I'm willing to get all het up about the TPP, once I get some accurate information about what I msanthrope Jan 2015 #115

Ron Wyden is a 'quack'? All those Dems on the Trade Committee are 'quacks'? When did Democratic sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #29

All the outrage over secret negotiations over trade where liberals are well represented but not quite so much Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #74

The TPP is way more that trade. It's about corporate domination. nm rhett o rick Jan 2015 #84

Like I said, I trust Obama, that includes more than anonymous comments on the Internet. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #94

This message was self-deleted by its author rhett o rick Jan 2015 #100

.. frylock Jan 2015 #207

But they object to the term 'authoritarian'. Marr Feb 2015 #471

Ron Wyden is not anonymous, neither are Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Alan Grayson among so many sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #292

So, to be clear your position is that Ron Wyden is an internet crank because that TheKentuckian Jan 2015 #332

i doubt few of the posters pushing tpp do it because of childish devotion to politicians. ND-Dem Feb 2015 #468

I'm not following you. We are talking in this thread about the secret agreement being crafted by sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #295

I was not aware that Congress was being illegally denied access to draft accords or documents. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #307

This is waaaaay more than a mere "trade agreement". And the warrior for the lower rhett o rick Jan 2015 #315

Liberals were "well represented" by who exactly and to what extent? TheKentuckian Feb 2015 #453

Tell us more about those "quacks" with organized crime. madfloridian Jan 2015 #96

But then again, they do know a thing or two about organized crime. malokvale77 Jan 2015 #232

Obama never lied? 840high Jan 2015 #285

Me too fadedrose Jan 2015 #53

I trust Obama. End of another rant. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #70

So do I. BlueCaliDem Jan 2015 #124

My full faith and trust also. Evidence to the contrary does not yet exist to change my mind. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #126

Did you believe him when he said: rhett o rick Jan 2015 #92

I believe this part: fadedrose Jan 2015 #258

But he isn't doing what he said he believed in. He isn't trying to make this process more rhett o rick Feb 2015 #486

Which Obama do you believe? rhett o rick Jan 2015 #89

Please see both my rants on the thread. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #93

Do you say anything substantive or just tell us that you blindly trust Pres Obama? nm rhett o rick Jan 2015 #291

Added to Ignore list. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #306

Sorry to hear that. I was hoping you'd share with us some good reason to support the TPP. nm rhett o rick Jan 2015 #313

This message was self-deleted by its author neverforget Jan 2015 #383

they don't have a good reason and they can't argue the point on its merits ND-Dem Feb 2015 #469

He has effectively asserted that he will engage in "double think" if required TheKentuckian Feb 2015 #502

I understand the need in some to "just go along" w/o thinking. In these trying times it is rhett o rick Feb 2015 #505

You are better than me, all I get is "I'm a witless nodding machine". TheKentuckian Feb 2015 #506

Too vague to interpret . . . fadedrose Jan 2015 #260

The US negotiating position will require Vietnam et. al. to raise their minimum wage Recursion Jan 2015 #278

You totally avoided the question. Did you believe Obama in 2008 or rhett o rick Jan 2015 #293

Well, since as I pointed out he's not "saying the opposite" I can't answer your question Recursion Jan 2015 #294

That is exactly why we lose treestar Jan 2015 #328

What do you do for a living? How will this costly trade deal benefit you? grahamhgreen Feb 2015 #450

People have tried to 'get informed' but the current version of the TPP isn't readily available. n/t PoliticAverse Jan 2015 #12

Wikileaks got hold of a chunk of it and "Public Citizen" and other Groups lawyers KoKo Jan 2015 #66

I suppose "they" think Moyers is a quack, too. grasswire Jan 2015 #186

anyone who dare speaketh against Him is a quack.. frylock Jan 2015 #208

Yes I agree. nm rhett o rick Feb 2015 #458

... Enthusiast Feb 2015 #423

They are always looking out for us.. sendero Jan 2015 #13

I am sure Obama genuinely believes the TPP will be good for America. I don't know if he's right. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #16

That's how I feel too. Hoyt Jan 2015 #19

Excuse me but he 'can't let our current Congress negotiate details'. Are they not the sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #39

Excuse me, I'm talking about during negotiations to get a final agreement that would be presented Hoyt Jan 2015 #43

They cannot "negotiate" a damned thing with Fast Track. NO REVISIONS. djean111 Jan 2015 #161

Obama does not have Fast-Track authority and he's unlikely to get it. In any event, Hoyt Jan 2015 #178

"The Top Secret Trade Deal You Need to Know About..Moyers & Company" --Dean Baker/Yves Smith KoKo Jan 2015 #267

Notice that everything they say is "COULD" do this or that. Hoyt Jan 2015 #298

You said it! :) raindaddy Jan 2015 #137

TPP Explained....Interactive Links at "Public Citizen" KoKo Jan 2015 #22

Like I said, uninformed opinion is heavily against it. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #25

The track record of previous 'free trade agreements' has been horrible Maedhros Jan 2015 #32

Well, I may be stupid and you may be much smarter than I am, so could 'analyze' the part sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #44

crickets. Octafish Jan 2015 #95

Aw, you are very kind, Octafish. But there are a whole lot of people who I'm sure, would disagree. sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #287

Well, they don't know what they're talking about... Octafish Jan 2015 #304

How about Clinton's Secretary of Labor, Robert Reich? "Why the TPP is a Pending Disaster" KoKo Jan 2015 #60

All I can say is that, unlike the last link, he's not obviously a crank. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #86

Well, then, it's a good opportunity to go back to "Public Citizens'" Link and inform yourself... KoKo Jan 2015 #103

Professional activists, or professional trade economists? Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #114

The professional trade economists are cheerleaders for the race to the bottom. Elwood P Dowd Jan 2015 #140

Huge plus one. Enthusiast Jan 2015 #333

I disagree with your assumption that we are all knaves, Maedhros Jan 2015 #253

I think you need to reread. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #264

Nah, you're chiding us as naysayers because we have concerns based upon Maedhros Jan 2015 #301

Not "have concerns". "Are certain this is a bad thing". Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #303

What is logically wrong with "I think this is a bad thing, based on past experience these things TheKentuckian Jan 2015 #354

Well put Populist_Prole Feb 2015 #507

Yup, given enough opportunities real mistakes would on occasion benefit workers TheKentuckian Feb 2015 #509

There has been adequate analysis by learned individuals from a number of disciplines. Maedhros Feb 2015 #480

What you have done is limited your acceptable inputs to a group that is chock full TheKentuckian Feb 2015 #503

Public Citizen is a crank oufit now? Yeah, according to the US CoC. ND-Dem Feb 2015 #475

I think if it's soley about trade and economics, it's a matter of scholarship on some levels bigtree Jan 2015 #28

Only a highly-trained specialist can understand the TPP? Enthusiast Feb 2015 #424

for what part of 'america'? ND-Dem Feb 2015 #470

Don't make a 'case'. Publish every last bit of the TPP a year in advance and let us decide on point Jan 2015 #21

You will never see that. Enthusiast Feb 2015 #425

'There is no red state or blue state just the United Corporate neo Liberalism states of america Ichingcarpenter Jan 2015 #24

+1 an entire shit load. Enthusiast Feb 2015 #426

If the TPP will be so beneficial to American workers, Maedhros Jan 2015 #27

Good suggestion. Enthusiast Feb 2015 #427

If it was beneficial, they would want us to read it. grahamhgreen Feb 2015 #451

"Get informed, not by reading the Huffington Post..." but by reading...what, exactly? Iggo Jan 2015 #35

By reading Rt.com ... obnoxiousdrunk Jan 2015 #47

The TPP drafts are available to every member of Congress. nt msanthrope Jan 2015 #52

WHEN were they made available?? For years Congress has been denied access and have relied on leaks sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #311

OK. How about the details of the negotiations so far and future negotiations in public? Tierra_y_Libertad Jan 2015 #40

Perfectly well said. Enthusiast Feb 2015 #428

I'd love to. Publish the TPP treaty so I can read it. (nt) jeff47 Jan 2015 #41

I suspect we will see it when it's done. Right now, every member of Congress has access to the msanthrope Jan 2015 #71

you'll see it when it's done. isn't that reassuring? good to know the masters watch over us. ND-Dem Feb 2015 #478

OK, so inform us Mr. President. progressoid Jan 2015 #49

Every single member of Congress has access to the drafts. We see it when the drafting is done. nt msanthrope Jan 2015 #108

Are you saying that KMOD Jan 2015 #176

Yes. nt msanthrope Jan 2015 #182

Yes. Congresspeople can read it. Sanders is complaining that his staff can't read it (yet) Recursion Jan 2015 #277

Can I ask you something, KMOD Jan 2015 #279

Fast Track means they have to give it an up or down vote as it stands Recursion Jan 2015 #281

ahh, I think I understand it now. KMOD Jan 2015 #282

I *think* it also precludes a filibuster, but I'm not entirely clear on that Recursion Jan 2015 #283

Fine Mr. President, then explain why the Huffington Post is wrong. Dawgs Jan 2015 #73

Did you know over 50 million US households watch RT? zappaman Jan 2015 #83

Did you believe him when he said: rhett o rick Jan 2015 #98

FOAM THE RUNWAY! Octafish Jan 2015 #88

+1 an entire shit load. Enthusiast Feb 2015 #429

What a con man President Obama SamKnause Jan 2015 #90

All Obama voters should be in the streets! WDIM Jan 2015 #209

I agree 100%. SamKnause Jan 2015 #210

+1 Enthusiast Feb 2015 #431

+1 Enthusiast Feb 2015 #430

"We share same values and are looking out for the same people" Then why so secretive?? madfloridian Jan 2015 #91

Apparently folks know all about it, and what it does -- notwithstanding, it's far from complete. Hoyt Jan 2015 #102

Obama calls critics of TPP secrecy 'Conspiracy Theorists' Octafish Jan 2015 #105

goggle Ghana and recyle your compute Ichingcarpenter Jan 2015 #117

I missed that.......thanks for posting... KoKo Jan 2015 #122

Huffington Post is as reliable as any of the TV MSM or print media for that matter. Enthusiast Jan 2015 #341

cass sunstein is a horrible person TimeToEvolve Jan 2015 #154

..... madfloridian Jan 2015 #167

The few articles there are Aerows Jan 2015 #302

My opinion of Cass Sunstein?? From 2008 He said keep harmony protect Bush. BS madfloridian Jan 2015 #164

Don Siegelman says "give me a break." Octafish Jan 2015 #220

Pointing and shouting "Conspiracy Theorists" is a favorite tactic of those that don't believe in rhett o rick Jan 2015 #316

Exactly. Aerows Jan 2015 #352

Exactly, because we all know there never are any conspiracies in Washington DC politics. nm rhett o rick Jan 2015 #356

+1 an entire shit load. Enthusiast Feb 2015 #432

You'll see it when it's done. In the meantime, every single member of Congress has access to the msanthrope Jan 2015 #106

TPP will affect our lives worse than NAFTA. We have a need to know. madfloridian Jan 2015 #169

Sure---and we will know--when we have a trade agreement. nt msanthrope Jan 2015 #195

That's not acceptable, but then TPTB don't care what we think. madfloridian Jan 2015 #211

Let me know when you want to amend Article 2, Section 2, Clause 2. nt msanthrope Jan 2015 #247

The Republicans in Congress that favor the TPP clearly are looking out for the same people that... stillwaiting Jan 2015 #141

They need more than access to a "draft" ThoughtCriminal Jan 2015 #121

Among the people who have covered the TPP for Huffington Post are Lori Wallach and Robert Reich. pa28 Jan 2015 #125

Me too! raindaddy Jan 2015 #135

+1 Enthusiast Feb 2015 #433

Instead listen to the Republicans.... raindaddy Jan 2015 #131

Huffpo has published info from Grayson and others re: TPP. So, I guess Huffpo had to go under the merrily Jan 2015 #146

what's a better source? Enrique Jan 2015 #151

there you have it folks: transparency Skittles Jan 2015 #165

and don't forget: every member congress is allowed to read it... KG Jan 2015 #185

I will follow Sen. Sanders on this Omaha Steve Jan 2015 #166

I'm still trying to find out more about it. KMOD Jan 2015 #177

So how many "trade pacts" or "free trade agreements", have really benefited all of America? SoapBox Jan 2015 #168

It's a tabloid, not a news source, and Arianna is staunchly Republican. closeupready Jan 2015 #170

sure, they publish stuff from folks like this guy bigtree Jan 2015 #181

LOL Oilwellian Jan 2015 #234

Pres. Obama tells Dems, on TTP: "Get informed, not by reading the Huffington Post" The CCC Jan 2015 #183

"keep our powder dry"? what is this, 2007? are they no longer able to come up with new ways to say MisterP Jan 2015 #187

Kudos. That's some nice writing. I especially like this one: merrily Jan 2015 #219

Nice rant of the truth Ichingcarpenter Jan 2015 #229

again, the goal's not to convince anyone, or even to stay in charge of the terms of discourse MisterP Jan 2015 #238

Its rather obvious for us that are independent thinkers and independent researchers. Ichingcarpenter Jan 2015 #240

+10000000 Propaganda of a corrupt government woo me with science Jan 2015 #308

Love your post! Populist_Prole Jan 2015 #345

+100 ND-Dem Feb 2015 #485

oh, and just in cased you missed it: Every member of Congress can see it. KG Jan 2015 #194

Do you know how recently that happened? Because there had been complaints about secrecy. merrily Jan 2015 #228

I think he was being a bit sarcastic Oilwellian Jan 2015 #236

Thanks. On my part, though, it was a serious question. If anyone knows, I'd merrily Jan 2015 #297

I missed that. Do you have a link? nm rhett o rick Jan 2015 #317

Sorry, Mr. President, but still no sale. Brigid Jan 2015 #201

another nafta coming with the new disaster. WDIM Jan 2015 #203

"The Top Secret Trade Deal You Need to Know About.. Bill Moyers & Company" KoKo Jan 2015 #266

This should be an OP. n/t winter is coming Jan 2015 #273

Thanks for posting. K&R. JEB Jan 2015 #275

An old friend of mine is a UAW auto worker - I asked for her thoughts. closeupready Jan 2015 #212

I stand with Bernie... AzDar Jan 2015 #213

Few things to add Aerows Jan 2015 #214

Her, Grayson and Sanders. merrily Jan 2015 #218

We are supposed to just shut up and cheer, though Aerows Jan 2015 #255

Wait. You haven't been going under the bus to read Huffpo, have you? merrily Jan 2015 #296

Our senators and reps need to get informed that we oppose this StopTheTPP Jan 2015 #239

exactly right, StopTheTPP bigtree Jan 2015 #251

+ 330 million nationalize the fed Jan 2015 #261

"Betrayal of democracy" JEB Jan 2015 #271

The State Dept website currently returns 805 docs for "Trans-Pacific Partnership" ucrdem Jan 2015 #259

You say 805 docs are available and from your "It doesn't take a lot of reading" you believe rhett o rick Jan 2015 #324

Yep and note the treestar Jan 2015 #331

I think few Congressfolk have read the 802 documents, they are very busy taking sides. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #334

Then you shouldn't be afraid to let us know the details. alarimer Jan 2015 #262

start here: ucrdem Jan 2015 #263

Part of the revolving door propoganda mill. JEB Jan 2015 #268

At this point I trust the administration more than the pundits. ucrdem Jan 2015 #269

I don't trust any of the parties involved JEB Jan 2015 #270

Yes, I understand that point of view. But I think this is a different kind of deal. ucrdem Jan 2015 #272

I do not trust corporate lobbiests and negotiators JEB Jan 2015 #274

YGBFSM Populist_Prole Jan 2015 #340

I would ask one of the Beltway pundits if they have read through the American objectives of the TPP? Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #344

Those are "objectives" they mean nothing. Zero. Zilch. Tell me what the document rhett o rick Feb 2015 #459

One more straw on the almost broken backs JEB Jan 2015 #265

+1 840high Jan 2015 #286

+1000 Populist_Prole Jan 2015 #330

...by using that ol speedy freedom of information thingy. L0oniX Jan 2015 #288

Well we could GET informed if they would release the text of the agreement. Very shitty tactic Autumn Jan 2015 #305

Then why don't you inform us Mr President? classykaren Jan 2015 #312

This thread provides a great example of the split in the Democratic Party. rhett o rick Jan 2015 #319

You stated it perfectly Populist_Prole Jan 2015 #329

This thread provides a great example of a few things, but not what you're talking about. Jeff Rosenzweig Jan 2015 #350

It would be swell if the Democratic Party was united and Progressive. But the reality rhett o rick Jan 2015 #355

None of which is especially responsive to what I said. Jeff Rosenzweig Jan 2015 #366

The reality is that you don't know what you're talking about. NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #374

Do you think that kind of talk intimidates me? rhett o rick Jan 2015 #376

Apparently the facts don't intimidate you ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #382

You've never bothered with expressing any facts. Let me know when you wish to discuss rhett o rick Jan 2015 #389

Cool. NanceGreggs Feb 2015 #392

This isn't about me. I accept your derision. But do you think that Sen Sanders rhett o rick Jan 2015 #377

So you take Sanders' word for everything ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #380

Excellent post. Bobbie Jo Jan 2015 #360

I have a huge problem Aerows Jan 2015 #362

As I said to rhett Jeff Rosenzweig Jan 2015 #367

Fantastic. Aerows Jan 2015 #368

I'm very pleased to hear that. n/t Jeff Rosenzweig Jan 2015 #369

"Wait and see" and "we'll fix it later" are the political versions of the "four corners" offense in TheKentuckian Feb 2015 #456

don't worry bigtree Feb 2015 #461

Ha! Nothing new under the sun in this area. TheKentuckian Feb 2015 #500

I'm bookmarking that to read it a 3rd time. Excellent post. Hoyt Jan 2015 #365

Why would Democrats and Republicans alike (as you admit) push harmful policies like this? TheKentuckian Jan 2015 #371

Rather than state facts, he attacks the press. FAIL. grahamhgreen Jan 2015 #320

So far no one that supports the TPP has argued with facts. They expect Blind Faith. nm rhett o rick Jan 2015 #327

Your own words ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #370

My arguments are that we shouldn't ram this thru w/o knowing what the impact will be. rhett o rick Jan 2015 #373

"Pres Obama says "get smart" about the agreement ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #378

Funny how you attack me but don't commit yourself on issues. rhett o rick Jan 2015 #379

What the hell THAT was all about ... NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #381

cool table? bigtree Jan 2015 #386

A few corrections ... NanceGreggs Feb 2015 #391

okay, sure bigtree Feb 2015 #393

It is an easy thing ... NanceGreggs Feb 2015 #394

thing is, Nance bigtree Feb 2015 #396

I agree with you wholeheartedly ... NanceGreggs Feb 2015 #397

why are we still up at this hour? bigtree Feb 2015 #398

I dunno. NanceGreggs Feb 2015 #399

At a minimum, you are for secret laws, we're against them. grahamhgreen Feb 2015 #490

Ah, yes ... NanceGreggs Feb 2015 #493

The majority of We The People:) grahamhgreen Feb 2015 #494

Firstly ... NanceGreggs Feb 2015 #497

The TPP is a secret set of laws unavailable to the American public, we can agree? grahamhgreen Feb 2015 #504

Nope. NanceGreggs Feb 2015 #508

Brings me back to - what do you do for a living? grahamhgreen Feb 2015 #510

PLUS ONE, a huge bunch! Enthusiast Feb 2015 #402

It's a bad sign. I also see this organized DU push back against criticism as a bad sign. Enthusiast Jan 2015 #346

Yes, the think tank paid posters are here in force. grahamhgreen Feb 2015 #395

They will not change my opinion. Enthusiast Feb 2015 #400

^^^Yep. RiverLover Feb 2015 #409

^^^Unintentional irony Bobbie Jo Feb 2015 #437

Indeed. Those who want what's best for the country that also happen to be Democratic policies RiverLover Feb 2015 #442

No conservative here Bobbie Jo Feb 2015 #443

I know intentional deflection when I see it. RiverLover Feb 2015 #444

Indeed. Bobbie Jo Feb 2015 #452

Absolutely! Bobbie Jo Feb 2015 #436

Where would you like us to read about a secret agreement, Mr President? lumberjack_jeff Jan 2015 #335

This is the outline for labor and full site available at the link: Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #338

This offers zero assurances of any kind of protection. It's rhetoric at it's finest. rhett o rick Jan 2015 #359

Well, the parallel system in NAFTA has allowed US and Canadian unions to sue Mexico dozens of times Recursion Jan 2015 #385

And your point is that you support NAFTA and the TPP? rhett o rick Jan 2015 #387

As I've answered to you multiple times Recursion Jan 2015 #388

This goes beyond workers' rights. This allows corporations to sue countries if djean111 Feb 2015 #408

PLUS ONE, a huge bunch! You win! Enthusiast Feb 2015 #434

Yes, we should listen to his bullshit projections about 650,000 new jobs instead. Vattel Jan 2015 #357

650,000 new ones created in exports, 10-fold that lost in imports Populist_Prole Jan 2015 #364

Obama does not like the Internet. WinkyDink Jan 2015 #375

How are we supposed to do that? davidthegnome Jan 2015 #384

Why informed? It's easier to be blissfully ignorant while spouting crap like Obama's legacy is dead. great white snark Feb 2015 #390

Aren't those that refuse to try to learn what's going on but content to trust Obama and the rhett o rick Feb 2015 #467

I wonder if Fox will have coverage of the TPP he approves of? RiverLover Feb 2015 #405

"they won't support any new trade deal b/4 the admin. can demonstrate that the result will riversedge Feb 2015 #419

There will be higher wages but 82% fewer jobs available. Enthusiast Feb 2015 #435

K&R for Much Needed Attention.. and just want to say... 2banon Feb 2015 #454

How can we get informed about something that is delibertately being kept secret? Man from Pickens Feb 2015 #457

As stated at least 20 times already-every member of congress has access to any and all drafts. great white snark Feb 2015 #479

and the public? Man from Pickens Feb 2015 #484

Untrue. The actual text of the agreement is under lock & key. RiverLover Feb 2015 #487

Huff Post is a news source? Generic Brad Feb 2015 #489

Sigh "...according to a source in the closed-door session....." uponit7771 Feb 2015 #496