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calimary

(90,304 posts)
63. Welcome to DU, shadowmayor!
Thu Feb 5, 2015, 11:46 PM
Feb 2015

Glad you're here. If they "trained" for these vaunted positions as foreign policy "experts" by playing "Risk" - then that would explain their utter recklessness in "shepherding" US involvement in world affairs. When you play a game - it's a GAME. There are no consequences when you lose. When you lose at "Monopoly" you don't really lose all your properties and go bankrupt in real life. I don't know if that's what the PNACers did, but they SURE didn't attempt to get any first-hand experience in actual combat situations. Sure didn't line up to sign up - and put their OWN asses in harm's way. They knew nothing, and listening to them gained us nothing. WORSE than nothing. Actively negative real-life consequences. Not just highfalutin "think" tank opining from the elitist chickenhawks of the so-called right. Very few of them ever got their hands dirty. Very few of them ever had skin in the game. They were quite literally arm-chair warriors.

And we who objected were completely shut out, and shut down. There was no face time made generously available to our side. The closest we got, back in the beginning, was michael o'hanlon. He was on camera a lot, representing "the left." michael o'hanlon's appearance on some news or news/talk show arose from his position as an analyst at the Brookings Institution. Back then, at the beginning of bush/cheney, and certainly in the latter days of the Clinton administration, you could name about a half-dozen different institutions, think tanks, foundations, and such on the far right. Heritage Foundation, Eagle Forum, American Enterprise Institute, Cato Institute, Hoover Institute, Federalist Society, and our favorites - the good folks at the Project for a New American Century.

When it came to naming institutions, think tanks, foundations, and such on the left - you could come up with the Brookings Institution, and that was pretty much it. Or at least that's all you saw on TV or cable. Ironically enough, michael o'hanlon is a signatory of the Project for a New American Century (PNAC) along with donald rumsfeld and jebbie bush, john mccain, paul wolfowitz, scooter libby, elliott abrams, richard perle, john bolton, richard allen, frank gaffney, fred kagan, donald kagan, jeane kirkpatrick, randy scheunemann, john mccain, ed meese, dan quayle (!), charles krauthammer, bill kristol, and richard bruce cheney and just a whole cavalcade of VERMIN who promoted, then and now, a philosophy that called upon America to assert its dominance over the rest of the world. As such, it can be expected that the PNAC policy platform will be part of michael o'hanlon's mind set in one way or other. After all, he did sign off on it. Especially regarding control and dominance of strategic resources. To ensure this would be so, the PNACers advocated an America that was able "to fight and decisively win multiple wars on multiple fronts." All for the sake of our purported way of life and our alleged exceptionalism. Even aggressively imposed imperialism and forced capitalism everywhere. We had to be The Badass of the World, and assert our planetary primacy so that the flow of critical and strategic resources flowed to us without interruption. They wanted and tried to design war in Iraq before bush/cheney was even in the White House. They tried to sell it to Bill Clinton in the last quarter of his service. And they all rode in on their pal cheney's coat-tails.

http://www.publiceye.org/pnac_chart/pnac.html

THIS >>>>> "What a colossal mess we have created. Was Saddam a good guy? Hell no - but I notice very little discussion about those wonderful humanitarians running the Saudi empire? I could weep for a week for what has been done in our name, but I'm too tired." I know what you mean, shadowmayor.

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0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

I'll admit it. Coventina Feb 2015 #1
Couldn't have said it better forest444 Feb 2015 #18
+ 100 zappaman Feb 2015 #59
And amazingly, Christians under Saddam avebury Feb 2015 #61
Living proof in Tariq Aziz, Saddam's Christian Foreign Minister. Coventina Feb 2015 #66
I agree 99.9999% and have only one minor disagreement with your post. arcane1 Feb 2015 #2
this was my thought. barbtries Feb 2015 #30
100% n/t arcane1 Feb 2015 #37
Well, he was our ally against Iran... Wounded Bear Feb 2015 #3
Yes, very true, he kept Iran under control, Iran would never have gotten Thinkingabout Feb 2015 #14
He was testing the wasters since it was recently overthrown JonLP24 Feb 2015 #74
No doubt... jaysunb Feb 2015 #4
I think we can conclude that stability in the ME isn't the goal. ND-Dem Feb 2015 #6
yep. barbtries Feb 2015 #32
The goal was stability under US control. jeff47 Feb 2015 #51
PNAC toddwv Feb 2015 #28
He was a paper tiger to western interests. MohRokTah Feb 2015 #5
The same Saudi "royals" who are funding ISIS today? Those Saudis? BlueCaliDem Feb 2015 #10
And bankrupt the West in every way. Bandar Bush was a traitor, like Ronny Raygun. freshwest Feb 2015 #46
For the oil. grahamhgreen Feb 2015 #50
I admit it, and said so just yesterday. herding cats Feb 2015 #7
True, but so would Stalin, Hitler, Qadafi, and any number of other despots bhikkhu Feb 2015 #8
Though many ISIS members are former Saddam loyalists. nt geek tragedy Feb 2015 #9
ISIS is made up of many of Saddam's Guys, maybe they learned from Saddam and to avoid JI7 Feb 2015 #11
ISIS is not really religious in the way Muslim Brotherhood or even Al Qaeda is JI7 Feb 2015 #12
Agreed Thinkingabout Feb 2015 #15
"they are more of a criminal gang" So, too, is the M.B. AverageJoe90 Feb 2015 #21
There would be no ISIS if Saddam ruled in Iraq. Agnosticsherbet Feb 2015 #13
I admit it. 840high Feb 2015 #16
I'll admit it. He got on the wrong side of Poppy, and that was that for him. MADem Feb 2015 #17
Doubtful if he would have invaded Kuwait without COLGATE4 Feb 2015 #19
Yes, that mess goes down in history as a boneheaded conversation. MADem Feb 2015 #25
To this day, I suspect that Hussein got on the wrong side of Thatcher, who then helped put the KingCharlemagne Feb 2015 #23
Gotta find someone who was in the room! Otherwise, we'll never know... nt MADem Feb 2015 #27
Ay, there's the rub. A lot of 'unknown unknowns' (to quote RummyDummy KingCharlemagne Feb 2015 #31
I meant "In the room with Maggie and Big George!" MADem Feb 2015 #34
Yeah, my mind is jumping around, but I had taken your original meaning. You are bringing back KingCharlemagne Feb 2015 #35
I think your 'private suspicions' would make a great academic thesis, actually! nt MADem Feb 2015 #38
It's been written about, see here yodermon Feb 2015 #55
Wow! Thanks so much for taking the time to find and copy that extract. While I cannot claim to have KingCharlemagne Feb 2015 #57
Would he, though? AverageJoe90 Feb 2015 #20
What if the sun rose in the West? Bin Laden had declared a 'fatwa' against Hussein, in essence KingCharlemagne Feb 2015 #33
Better the Devil You Know shadowmayor Feb 2015 #22
The old British imperialists always said the Baghdad was just a waystation on the road to KingCharlemagne Feb 2015 #36
Please publish this as an OP. raven mad Feb 2015 #56
I second the motion. Excellent read and credible. libdem4life Feb 2015 #68
Bu$h's 2003 invasion was a criminal act. N/t roamer65 Feb 2015 #24
So we should support and prop up ruthless dictators? former9thward Feb 2015 #26
I remember when Realpolitik was seen as a vice in Progressive circles, and I'm not even 30. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2015 #72
Wel I think one reason that the US went after Saddam Hussein was to de-stabilize that truedelphi Feb 2015 #29
England did NOT help out the South during the American Civil War. The ruling class may have KingCharlemagne Feb 2015 #39
Looking up and down this thread, I am convinced that . . . Jack Rabbit Feb 2015 #40
No doubt about that Jack madokie Feb 2015 #49
I'll admit it. He was a stabilizing presence in the Middle East. calimary Feb 2015 #41
The First Desert Slaughter shadowmayor Feb 2015 #44
Kuwait's slant drilling has gotten lost in the whole following story. pinto Feb 2015 #54
Welcome to DU, shadowmayor! calimary Feb 2015 #63
Thanks for your reply shadowmayor Feb 2015 #65
Hey shadowmayor - some of us WILL NOT forget. Many of us here, within DU, for example. calimary Feb 2015 #75
Thanks again for your thoughts and words shadowmayor Feb 2015 #76
Gaddafi would too. bvar22 Feb 2015 #42
+1000. Gaddafi was influential in all of Africa. polly7 Feb 2015 #67
Don't Drink the Propaganda Kool-Aid . . FairWinds Feb 2015 #43
But the neocons wouldn't have their dreams come true, if they hadn't succeeded in lying this country sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #45
Probably so Turbineguy Feb 2015 #47
The ol' "We have to support dictators to fight the terrorists, communists, etc." is flawed. pampango Feb 2015 #48
So you assert that ISIS would have been the same factor they are now or worse with Hussein in power? TheKentuckian Feb 2015 #52
Probably not. He repressed everyone from terrorists to people who opposed him. pampango Feb 2015 #60
Sure but the thread presented an "if then" question. No endorsement is required to give a straight TheKentuckian Feb 2015 #62
Saddam was not secular and ISIS is not religious AngryAmish Feb 2015 #53
Sure, but some allies are not worth having. n/t Chan790 Feb 2015 #58
yeah, he was a good U.S. dupe puppet bigtree Feb 2015 #64
Wasn't Saddam pulling cords out of incubators? Or do I have the wrong war? n/t libdem4life Feb 2015 #69
Iran is our ally now against ISIS Enrique Feb 2015 #70
Saddam was trying to ethnically cleanse the Kurds, the only ones effectively fighting ISIS. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2015 #71
Violent oppression by the head-of-state is the cause of this JonLP24 Feb 2015 #73
ISIS would not have come into existence cwydro Feb 2015 #77
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