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bhikkhu

(10,789 posts)

121. Fusion reactors were supposed to supply the power

Fri Feb 13, 2015, 11:11 PM

Feb 2015

according to a UN study I read many years ago projecting the future of the world's water needs. It was ll good up into the 90's on natural supplies and aquifers, but then to supply the growing agricultural and basic needs of the population, we were supposed to be transitioning to fusion-powered desalinization. Of course, the miracles of clean and abundant fusion power never quite materialized, and there has been no other magical energy source to replace it with. Solar is doing well lately, but not nearly well enough to run big desalinization plants economically.

On the good side population projections have eased significantly from what was expected back in the 60's and 70's, but, on the bad side, climate change has thrown an unexpected monkey wrench into the works. My own region is in a long-term drought, and another winter with rain, but very low snowpacks.

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Do folks here understand the expense and energy use associated with desalination plants? [View all] CreekDog Feb 2015 OP

That's well argued el_bryanto Feb 2015 #1

Fusion reactors were supposed to supply the power bhikkhu Feb 2015 #121

Wave technology, perhaps, coupled with wind and solar? nt MADem Feb 2015 #128

i don't know why there's all this insistence on using and moving as much water as we do CreekDog Feb 2015 #145

But why not? MADem Feb 2015 #151

Yes. We have drought-resistant gardens and use gray water in California. JDPriestly Feb 2015 #161

I say fire up a plant or two and see how it goes--if it works, if it's affordable, if they MADem Feb 2015 #176

if you're advocating desalination as a means to support agribusiness CreekDog Feb 2015 #163

Depends on the cost of the system. MADem Feb 2015 #175

Why Oh why CreekDog do you dog us with the facts? TexasProgresive Feb 2015 #2

passively.move sea water to the farmland, heat it with sun/mirrors/glass.The condinsation is fresh Sunlei Feb 2015 #3

you can't passively move seawater uphill CreekDog Feb 2015 #5

How friendly! FSogol Feb 2015 #6

Hydraulic ram pumps? Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #7

How is that going to get water hundreds of miles inland and hundreds of feet above sea level? CreekDog Feb 2015 #9

Didn't know how far you were talking. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #10

If someone is suggesting desalination and doesn't know how far the water is expected CreekDog Feb 2015 #13

Actually it was different people. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #15

I know you weren't suggesting it, sorry, I didn't mean it towards you CreekDog Feb 2015 #18

Whoa. SammyWinstonJack Feb 2015 #20

siphons and lift pumps & some dug channels/reservoirs.Also a benefit to groundwater replenishment Sunlei Feb 2015 #81

The Dutch have been doing this for centuries with windmills. JDDavis Feb 2015 #89

The Netherlands are a very small area compared with California, & they are wet. California is DRY Hekate Feb 2015 #125

I recall a windmill on my grandfather's farm. My mother does not remember it but says it was JDPriestly Feb 2015 #166

With solar power, why cant you?-nt Anansi1171 Feb 2015 #102

because you'd need pumps along the way CreekDog Feb 2015 #104

Actually my idea is to use Solar-powered pumps for hundreds of miles... Anansi1171 Feb 2015 #142

Wind and solar energy could maybe do this bit...? nt MADem Feb 2015 #129

Have you ever heard of the Roman aquaducts? JDPriestly Feb 2015 #164

Why did you write all that? CreekDog Feb 2015 #167

Another reason to desalinate water is the increasing quantity of water in the oceans -- salinated JDPriestly Feb 2015 #171

California is an enormous state bisected by immensely tall mountain ranges.Geology will not allow... Hekate Feb 2015 #124

Israel Desalination Shows California Not to Fear Drought JDDavis Feb 2015 #4

Good article. TY /nt think Feb 2015 #85

Nice article. abelenkpe Feb 2015 #88

Israel is even smaller than the Netherlands, but it still offers some hope for some coastal cities Hekate Feb 2015 #126

Is all of California in a drought situation, or just part of it? MADem Feb 2015 #133

ALL of California is having the worst drought ever. 2013 was the driest in history. Hekate Feb 2015 #137

Here's hoping for some much-needed rain...! nt MADem Feb 2015 #141

but it's even easier than all that CreekDog Feb 2015 #147

I don't think there's anybody left who doesn't have a low-flow shower and toilet already Hekate Feb 2015 #150

I lived in northern CA in the late eighties for a time and I had "all of the above." MADem Feb 2015 #153

desalination is not necessary for most of our urban areas CreekDog Feb 2015 #146

Well, I'm not sure I agree with you. MADem Feb 2015 #155

I didn't say conservation alone CreekDog Feb 2015 #162

Well, it's not so far down the list that they aren't building a plant and have plans for more. MADem Feb 2015 #177

From article using the same graphic:"Almost every discussion... begins and ends with cost" Gormy Cuss Feb 2015 #185

And from that same link, in response to the criticisms of someone not directing the process: MADem Feb 2015 #188

It's going to happen in Carlsbad. Whether other plants are built in SoCal (or improbably, NorCal) Gormy Cuss Feb 2015 #189

Since the Carlsbad one is a trial run, of sorts, if it is successful, I could see the MADem Feb 2015 #190

I don't know any of the facts but... yuiyoshida Feb 2015 #8

because it takes energy to run these plants CreekDog Feb 2015 #11

As for energy we have it... yuiyoshida Feb 2015 #14

yuiyoshida, what do the experts say about this? CreekDog Feb 2015 #23

Well as far as I know... yuiyoshida Feb 2015 #25

I asked what the experts think of the desalination plans you're recommending CreekDog Feb 2015 #26

Creekdog This is my opinion... yuiyoshida Feb 2015 #28

I know it is, but how valid is it if you don't know what the experts say about desalination? CreekDog Feb 2015 #30

You make it sound like its a Nuclear Power plant... yuiyoshida Feb 2015 #33

Why are you insisting on your idea without knowing some basics about the desalination issue here? CreekDog Feb 2015 #34

well you are so smart, why don't you lay it out... yuiyoshida Feb 2015 #44

I said the idea you supported required energy, money and space, but I DON'T support that idea CreekDog Feb 2015 #49

Geeze... unbelievable... yuiyoshida Feb 2015 #60

What I'm saying is because you lack the knowledge of the topic CreekDog Feb 2015 #63

again let me state the obvious yuiyoshida Feb 2015 #65

Yes, you are obviously not a scientist, or an engineer, which is more germain to MarshallS Feb 2015 #122

Good post. Add to that info the appalling articles this week in the LA Times about fracking Hekate Feb 2015 #130

Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2015 #182

great post CreekDog Feb 2015 #152

Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2015 #183

Welcome to DU Hekate Feb 2015 #192

which KGO host is saying to desalinate for agriculture? CreekDog Feb 2015 #149

"Those Artichokes you eat..." greiner3 Feb 2015 #71

omg, i love them... yuiyoshida Feb 2015 #72

Yes! zappaman Feb 2015 #111

Those artichokes are irrigated with reclaimed sewage water. hunter Feb 2015 #106

Which is why its a good idea yuiyoshida Feb 2015 #112

Because that's what we do The2ndWheel Feb 2015 #22

I think building a desalination Plant yuiyoshida Feb 2015 #29

if you build all the desalination plants that you propose CreekDog Feb 2015 #36

SO you want Nuclear power in California... yuiyoshida Feb 2015 #39

No, I don't want nuclear power in California, go to Advanced Search and you'll see my opposition CreekDog Feb 2015 #43

Hello, I DON'T KNOW HOW yuiyoshida Feb 2015 #50

Please, I'm begging you to study the desalination issue in California before making a decision CreekDog Feb 2015 #55

HELLO>??? yuiyoshida Feb 2015 #62

you seem to think our only choice is desalination CreekDog Feb 2015 #64

FINE! yuiyoshida Feb 2015 #68

here are the alternatives: CreekDog Feb 2015 #92

Everything should be explored, including desalinization still_one Feb 2015 #79

This! yuiyoshida Feb 2015 #82

I don't have any problem with exploring or studying the ideas CreekDog Feb 2015 #93

Pretzels! Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #12

well, ours gets stuck in our soils in the Central Valley CreekDog Feb 2015 #16

Am I sure? No, because I haven't suggested Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #17

I was answering rhetorically CreekDog Feb 2015 #19

okie doke. nt Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #21

Salt is in huge demand thelordofhell Feb 2015 #24

I am sure California would be happy yuiyoshida Feb 2015 #31

Maybe some genius will come up with an engine that runs on salt! MADem Feb 2015 #135

not in San Francisco or Los Angeles CreekDog Feb 2015 #32

Space? yuiyoshida Feb 2015 #35

we don't have any stadiums on the ocean CreekDog Feb 2015 #37

HOW ABOUT on the BAY.... yuiyoshida Feb 2015 #40

you're recommending we drink water from the San Francisco Bay? CreekDog Feb 2015 #45

I AM saying the bay is salt water too yuiyoshida Feb 2015 #54

but how do you know it's a good idea? CreekDog Feb 2015 #75

YOU KEEP SAYING that... yuiyoshida Feb 2015 #80

I am in San Francisco right now and I was born here CreekDog Feb 2015 #94

Better water usage by agriculture would go a long way towards addressing water shortages. Gormy Cuss Feb 2015 #100

People who live in the SF BAY AREA yuiyoshida Feb 2015 #109

Seeing dead grass isn't a reliable indicator of drought. Gormy Cuss Feb 2015 #179

Desalinization is expensive as all fuck. Jamastiene Feb 2015 #27

thanks CreekDog Feb 2015 #38

Because people don't like the options available JVS Feb 2015 #46

People don't know the options available CreekDog Feb 2015 #51

It always will be, because DU's collective IQ is in the toilet now. Jamastiene Feb 2015 #47

and some of the collective IQ here has been displaced by the bricks put in the toilet CreekDog Feb 2015 #95

What I said to Jamastienne Hekate Feb 2015 #132

LOL Hekate Feb 2015 #131

So you are USING sim City as a measuring stick? yuiyoshida Feb 2015 #41

A sense of humor wouldn't hurt you. Jamastiene Feb 2015 #48

oh right, like you know me. yuiyoshida Feb 2015 #57

No need to know you. BeanMusical Feb 2015 #115

well thank you JUDGE bean... yuiyoshida Feb 2015 #117

You're welcome. BeanMusical Feb 2015 #119

Hateful? Really? She's not being "hateful" at all. MADem Feb 2015 #136

Eyesore is too kind of a description GP6971 Feb 2015 #103

Exactly. Jamastiene Feb 2015 #187

the plants do require large amounts of energy. Adam051188 Feb 2015 #42

California's topography includes the highest portions o/t Sierra Nevada & Cascade mountain ranges Hekate Feb 2015 #134

The population is going to go down if they have to pay for this out of their taxes. And it will not jwirr Feb 2015 #52

Technology never improves to become more efficient and cost effective. Nope, not ever. Throd Feb 2015 #53

so we should build desalination plants on a mass scale right now? CreekDog Feb 2015 #58

Right now right now? No. Throd Feb 2015 #61

where would you use desalinated water in California? CreekDog Feb 2015 #70

I make no claims to be a water policy expert. Throd Feb 2015 #73

why not just use less water? CreekDog Feb 2015 #83

Everyone is using less water anyway and will conserve more in the future. Throd Feb 2015 #90

actually it only needs to go so far CreekDog Feb 2015 #96

Yes, but AgingAmerican Feb 2015 #76

At least your idea has some logic to it, BUT, the urban areas tend to have their own supplies CreekDog Feb 2015 #86

Actually they don't AgingAmerican Feb 2015 #138

LA doesn't get drinking water from the Colorado River CreekDog Feb 2015 #154

Yes they do AgingAmerican Feb 2015 #181

LA City proper gets it's water from the Eastern Sierra and local groundwater. hunter Feb 2015 #184

Thank you for the common sense. They said the same about solar as little as 3 years ago. Exultant Democracy Feb 2015 #69

I'm 100% right that we should not desalinate water at the coast to grow cotton in the Central Valley CreekDog Feb 2015 #98

You can be right on unsustainable Californian farming while wrong about desalinization Exultant Democracy Feb 2015 #105

Why would they freak out? A lot of the produce I eat comes from that acreage. Throd Feb 2015 #116

Oil pumps in the middle of every field pumping away, it's very disturbing. Exultant Democracy Feb 2015 #127

I guess I'm just used to it. Throd Feb 2015 #180

Producing enough for agriculture is cost prohibitive. Warpy Feb 2015 #56

Or simply producing food from methods that require far less water Major Nikon Feb 2015 #191

Could they be solar-powered? KamaAina Feb 2015 #59

Creative people need not apply? GeorgeGist Feb 2015 #66

creativity should be tapped to solve problems CreekDog Feb 2015 #156

What is your solution? n/t Gore1FL Feb 2015 #67

Not making the problem worse is the basic theme CreekDog Feb 2015 #99

Are there reclaimation options? Gore1FL Feb 2015 #120

it's the "quick fix" syndrome: the panacea looks so good they feel compelled to post it MisterP Feb 2015 #74

Your post should be its own OP CreekDog Feb 2015 #87

Do you have any idea what the drought is costing farmers, and if this still_one Feb 2015 #77

Agribusiness needs to stop overhead irrigation, period, and go to drip. Gray water & reclaimed water Hekate Feb 2015 #140

Water projects are like freeways. hunter Feb 2015 #78

Desalination could be used for the coastal areas to reduce export water haele Feb 2015 #84

Informative and well-said. Thanks, haele. nt Hekate Feb 2015 #143

People don't want the real answers of protecting our freshwater, giving back to the desert, and TheKentuckian Feb 2015 #91

What is the cost of shutting down California farms? One_Life_To_Give Feb 2015 #97

You're talking about greatly increasing the carbon footprint of every piece of produce. n/t cherokeeprogressive Feb 2015 #101

California, by itself, is one of the world's largest economies. MADem Feb 2015 #139

Something seems untoward about this commentary. Trajan Feb 2015 #107

If people were literally at risk of dying from thirst, I'd support anything to avoid that CreekDog Feb 2015 #108

The world's largest solar powered desalination plant is being built in Saudi Arabia. Kaleva Feb 2015 #110

yes and California gets many times the rain amounts that Saudi Arabia does CreekDog Feb 2015 #158

California doesn't have a uniform enviroment and climate thoughout the state. Kaleva Feb 2015 #186

Nearly all of California is wetter than most of Saudi Arabia CreekDog Feb 2015 #193

In the UAE, they build desalinization plants that work in conjunction with generating stations JCMach1 Feb 2015 #113

Is anyone using sound vibration or deep ocean layers of temp,pressure, and salinity CK_John Feb 2015 #114

The reason why they couple the desalinization with electric generation is that it uses the excess JCMach1 Feb 2015 #178

Much of the rest of the world would disagree nationalize the fed Feb 2015 #118

those places would not be desalinating on a large scale if they were California CreekDog Feb 2015 #159

The promise of desalination comes with a host of endemic problems and concerns . . . Journeyman Feb 2015 #123

Ah, science. Thanks for this, Journeyman. nt Hekate Feb 2015 #144

Thank you for your post CreekDog Feb 2015 #160

Desalinization at low pressures Turbineguy Feb 2015 #148

"Creek"dog says it all. JDPriestly Feb 2015 #157

While you say that we can make supply the energy to desalinate easily in the future CreekDog Feb 2015 #165

The Romans moved water downhill. We just have to make uphill, downhill. JDPriestly Feb 2015 #168

We do move it uphill at great cost CreekDog Feb 2015 #169

tell us the tax increase in thousands of dollars per year you're willing to pay for this alone CreekDog Feb 2015 #170

The aquaducts weren't cheap either. JDPriestly Feb 2015 #172

you're saying we won't have any water unless we desalinate? CreekDog Feb 2015 #173

We could find water somewhere else, but at this time, where would that be? JDPriestly Feb 2015 #174