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HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)

45. Re-read what you wrote, I did. I think nations often do commit blood and treasure for security

Sun Feb 15, 2015, 04:21 PM

Feb 2015

they also do it for a variety of other emotional and cognitive states as well as to employ "shock doctrine" to exploit situations.

My guess is Sept 11th did indeed cause many cases of PTSD across the country very likely thousands of cases.

The US certainly don't go to war because the entire population, or a majority or even sizeable minority of New York had PTSD.

If any part of going to war was rational it was a sense of vengeance and need to demonstrate that such attacks would be met with punishing retribution.

But, the US decided to turn anger and 'justice' seeking into 'opportunity taking' under the shock doctrine. We depend upon elected officials to act responsibly and rationally in order to protect ourselves from ourselves in such circumstance

What we got was the U.S.A. P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act that stripped citizens of rights, what we got was authorization to use the military against Iraq based on lies that some elected officials should have known were lies from their committee assignments and the Cheney administration went to war for oil and the realignment of power for our allies in the region.

As far as I have ever found, only ONE senator, one of my state's senators, actually read the USA PATRIOT Act, and having read it he voted against it.

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Question: What State Did Sen. Hillary Clinton Represent in 2002? [View all] McCamy Taylor Feb 2015 OP

Kick & highly recommended. William769 Feb 2015 #1

Good to see a K&R as the first response. Buzz Clik Feb 2015 #102

No one was manning the war room. William769 Feb 2015 #106

Seriously. Five full minutes passed, and you were still first in line. Buzz Clik Feb 2015 #108

Chuck Schumer isn't running for President; Hillary is. closeupready Feb 2015 #2

And if Schumer DID run for President, I would hold that vote against him. Jim Lane Feb 2015 #99

Idealism in retrospect. Buzz Clik Feb 2015 #103

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 Cali_Democrat Feb 2015 #3

What he said. n/t Comrade Grumpy Feb 2015 #7

+1,000 Scuba Feb 2015 #9

This should be the largest subthread in the entire thread. DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2015 #64

I agree 100%. nm rhett o rick Feb 2015 #71

+1 Marr Feb 2015 #148

! City Lights Feb 2015 #149

So true. Some can get away with everything, yeoman6987 Feb 2015 #4

They aren't the inevitable Democratic candidate for POTUS in 2016? Fumesucker Feb 2015 #20

"Paranoia strikes deep...." Jim Lane Feb 2015 #100

There you go with assume again yeoman6987 Feb 2015 #112

If my assumption was false, pray enlighten me. Jim Lane Feb 2015 #118

What is the purpose/duty of a representative in a representative democracy? Fumesucker Feb 2015 #5

Defending the Iraq vote tracks29 Feb 2015 #6

George Will said, vssmith Feb 2015 #8

"Mission creep in Afghanistan"? Buzz Clik Feb 2015 #110

I fully realize who GW is and what he believes vssmith Feb 2015 #143

So... you were going with the blind pig/truffle metaphor? Buzz Clik Feb 2015 #147

I have an answer to your question Martin Eden Feb 2015 #10

Great post Autumn Feb 2015 #12

you are applauding someone who says they won't vote for certain Democrats. KittyWampus Feb 2015 #18

"in a Democratic primary" those are the key words. I didn't vote for Obama in the 2008 primary. Autumn Feb 2015 #21

Can I ask what's changed your mind in 6(ish) years? Agschmid Feb 2015 #104

I like Hillary, she's a lovely woman. I was able to talk to her on a couple of occasions on health Autumn Feb 2015 #136

Thanks reasonable list and it seems you feel passionately about it. Agschmid Feb 2015 #142

... in the Democratic primary Martin Eden Feb 2015 #63

But we were lied to about Saddam Hussein being behind the 9/11 attack. All of us. CTyankee Feb 2015 #44

many people knew that in real time hfojvt Feb 2015 #54

I was a skeptic myself but few of us had proof to the contrary. CTyankee Feb 2015 #62

Were you at DU in 2002? Martin Eden Feb 2015 #65

No, I didn't find out about DU until October of 2004. CTyankee Feb 2015 #67

There was no evidence that Saddam had anything to do with it Martin Eden Feb 2015 #73

thanks for the back story. always good to know. CTyankee Feb 2015 #80

The Past is Prologue Martin Eden Feb 2015 #122

Now what is to see her on Libya, S. America, Syria, and the Ukraine. TheKentuckian Feb 2015 #131

+100 ND-Dem Feb 2015 #107

It is not negative evidence Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. it was the lack of positive evidence on point Feb 2015 #128

"Bush had to launch the war before the UN basically said Bush assertions were a lie." Martin Eden Feb 2015 #139

Here is a quick reminder of the votes for IWR... Agschmid Feb 2015 #109

And what about the House? nt MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #114

That reminder is incomplete Martin Eden Feb 2015 #123

Want to take a trip back in time? Agschmid Feb 2015 #132

c) Martin Eden Feb 2015 #138

Who lied to us? Bush? Who believed Bush? Colin Powell knew the truth but was a coward rhett o rick Feb 2015 #68

I sincerely doubt Hillary was fooled. Martin Eden Feb 2015 #75

The point is that smart people didn't trust Bush/Cheney. Smart people recognized rhett o rick Feb 2015 #115

Can't say I disagree fredamae Feb 2015 #59

Are you really going to try and run that stinking pile past us? 99Forever Feb 2015 #11

So you don't understand why many liberals/progressives are upset about her Iraq war vote? Seriously? dissentient Feb 2015 #13

I have yet to hear any attempt at justifying HRC's IWar vote. nm rhett o rick Feb 2015 #29

See post #44 n/t Martin Eden Feb 2015 #66

Oh Dog, I hope you are being factious. Tell me you are. nm rhett o rick Feb 2015 #70

The poster tried to justify the vote Martin Eden Feb 2015 #74

All those who voted for the IWR and supported Bush's wars have blood on their hands. Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2015 #14

Well said. nm rhett o rick Feb 2015 #27

So, Hillary gets a pass? Is that what you are saying? Broward Feb 2015 #15

Interesting the people who believe the IWR vote is a *real* political liability wyldwolf Feb 2015 #16

This has nothing to do with "political liability", this has to do with rhett o rick Feb 2015 #26

It has everything to do with political liability wyldwolf Feb 2015 #82

I sure wish Iraq hadn't taken down the World Trade Center towers. DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2015 #17

And they voted yes on the notion it would only take 6months. JaneyVee Feb 2015 #19

A clear indication of stupidity Fumesucker Feb 2015 #23

I very much doubt anyone who voted bought the six months thing, or the hang flowers around the necks merrily Feb 2015 #58

Let's guess your point. The Democrats betrayed their country because they thought rhett o rick Feb 2015 #25

ffs, no one with two brain cells believed six months or the flowers around the necks of our troops merrily Feb 2015 #37

Actually, they voted "Yes" because they wanted Bush to have credibility.... Spitfire of ATJ Feb 2015 #33

Your insipid cheerleading just turned offensive. AtomicKitten Feb 2015 #22

HRC was more than willing to support family friend George Bush and his illegal war. rhett o rick Feb 2015 #28

We will never forget. AtomicKitten Feb 2015 #49

We will never forget, abso-fracking-lutely. nm rhett o rick Feb 2015 #60

"Hey look over there, there are other people that betrayed their constituents, party rhett o rick Feb 2015 #24

Other people who don't seem to be running for President to boot. Who didn't all advocate for the merrily Feb 2015 #32

sorry, but.....fail. nt navarth Feb 2015 #30

Republicans framed that vote as either a "Yes" or you were weak.... Spitfire of ATJ Feb 2015 #31

If 25 people are wrong that doesn't make it better than only 20 being right. hobbit709 Feb 2015 #34

Punjab? Ino Feb 2015 #35

How many New Yorkers -were-suffering PTSD from Sept 11th? HereSince1628 Feb 2015 #36

You don't commit blood and treasure because your constituents might feel safer if you do. merrily Feb 2015 #39

Re-read what you wrote, I did. I think nations often do commit blood and treasure for security HereSince1628 Feb 2015 #45

I was trying to support your view, not trying to undermine it. merrily Feb 2015 #46

Ok. You just gave me a chance to expand HereSince1628 Feb 2015 #47

Cool. It was a good post. merrily Feb 2015 #48

I suffered from 9/11 (though not PTSD). Jim Lane Feb 2015 #98

Are you honestly calling yourself a victim of 9/11 because you got laid off? Capt. Obvious Feb 2015 #127

To me, losing my job was worse than having to take off my shoes at the airport. Jim Lane Feb 2015 #135

Hey, I have an idea. Let's just hand over the White House to someone who didn't vote for libdem4life Feb 2015 #38

At no point has it ever been "Hillary or nobody". Half-Century Man Feb 2015 #57

Uh, that's what it seems to be as we write here and what the hubub is all about. No one else cares libdem4life Feb 2015 #79

And that's the way it is, reporting live from planet Earth. cheapdate Feb 2015 #151

Cute. So point out the mistakes. There is an old saying libdem4life Feb 2015 #154

I was affirming the undeniable good sense and logic of what you said. cheapdate Feb 2015 #155

So sorry...so used to the sarcasm and snark here...thanks for clearing it up. libdem4life Feb 2015 #156

Shameful OP. merrily Feb 2015 #40

She stil voted for it. Fearless Feb 2015 #41

I gave this a rec so I could go back and unrec it. nt benz380 Feb 2015 #42

K and effing R Hekate Feb 2015 #43

And ten years later, after all the mistakes and bloodshed, she pushes for Afghanistan "surge", and whereisjustice Feb 2015 #50

To me, her vote on the Iraqi war is just one disconcerting event among many. Half-Century Man Feb 2015 #51

It was not just a vote either. She urged her fellow Senators to vote for the invasion. merrily Feb 2015 #52

Before I can feel justified in supporting her Half-Century Man Feb 2015 #55

I don't know what questions you have about it. She advocated for the Iraq Invasion and did so merrily Feb 2015 #56

I want to hear from her the actual motivations behind mer decision. Half-Century Man Feb 2015 #61

Fair enough. She has spoken about some of those things, esp. why she did not read the NIE. merrily Feb 2015 #72

It means we can COUNT ON HER! ....To do the politically expedient thing, if not the right one. Warren DeMontague Feb 2015 #85

Votes (theirs) Matter and Most fredamae Feb 2015 #53

I don'want to demonize Hillary Clinton olddots Feb 2015 #69

I am a NYer and I support her, but I did protest Hillary's and Chuck's office for their votes. hrmjustin Feb 2015 #76

We're trying to purdy up the Iraq War vote now? Iggo Feb 2015 #77

Can't let anything get in the way of the inevitability train! Warren DeMontague Feb 2015 #90

I do remember. Iggo Feb 2015 #93

I am actually in agreement with you. Warren DeMontague Feb 2015 #95

Not enough lipstick in the WORLD woo me with science Feb 2015 #97

Hillary is being held responsible for the Iraq war because Agnosticsherbet Feb 2015 #78

Over half the Democratic members of Congress voted against the Iraq War Fumesucker Feb 2015 #91

A majority of Democratic Senators voted for the war. Hillary was a junior member of the Senate. Agnosticsherbet Feb 2015 #92

What influence she had Hillary used the other way Fumesucker Feb 2015 #94

If you want to blame a Democrat, blam Tom Dashel to Democrat in the Senate Agnosticsherbet Feb 2015 #96

I'll focus on Daschle when he indicates he may be running for POTUS Fumesucker Feb 2015 #119

She fucked up tabasco Feb 2015 #81

The idea that attacking Iraq because of 9-11 grief is JUSTIFIED Maedhros Feb 2015 #83

So Saddam Hussein attacked us on 9-11? Warren DeMontague Feb 2015 #84

1 MILLION dead Iraqis Ramses Feb 2015 #86

One of the most important enablers of a war of aggression. JackRiddler Feb 2015 #87

I don't hate Hillary anymore for her vote but I lived in New York at the time and called Cha Feb 2015 #88

You realize that Bush and Cheney could use that exact same rationale, right? Warren DeMontague Feb 2015 #89

+1! Excellent, excellent post. Buzz Clik Feb 2015 #101

Reminder: IRAQ DID NOT ATTACK THE US ON 9/11 DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2015 #125

Normally, the spineless assholes on this site would alert an attack like yours. Buzz Clik Feb 2015 #130

I'm not alerting you, you're not alerting me. Maybe someone will get one or the other of us. DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2015 #134

So which are you? Fumesucker Feb 2015 #141

I'm glad no one deleted this disgusting post of yours. Marr Feb 2015 #150

I'm a Hillary fan? Really? Buzz Clik Feb 2015 #153

Because they are ignorant of what Hillary positions even are still_one Feb 2015 #105

Senator Clinton was a good representative for NY... Historic NY Feb 2015 #111

Your OP contains a major error of fact, please correct it MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #113

That she was joined by others in a cowardly response to war hysteria is supposed to-- eridani Feb 2015 #116

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 Spider Jerusalem Feb 2015 #117

K & R juajen Feb 2015 #120

So we're defending her support of the war machine now? I thought we were past this. craigmatic Feb 2015 #121

No, just a few here are doing that. Most of us still use critical thinking skills and common sense. Rex Feb 2015 #145

Kissinger/Summers in 2016. eom JEB Feb 2015 #124

This is quite possibly the lamest attempt at Clinton apologia I've seen on this site Capt. Obvious Feb 2015 #126

K&R madokie Feb 2015 #129

Give us Clinton out of the primaries... NCTraveler Feb 2015 #133

Sole mastermind? No. That might demonstrate leadership. Orsino Feb 2015 #137

Who has accused her of being the mastermind, sole or otherwise? Phony, absurd, lame excuses TheKentuckian Feb 2015 #140

Her opening statements about the IWR Rex Feb 2015 #144

Hillarys support for Iraq war would not prevent me from voting for her. hollowdweller Feb 2015 #146

Am I correct that EVERYONE holding this vote against Clinton voted against Kerry in 2004? brooklynite Feb 2015 #152