Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

JonLP24

(30,052 posts)
121. I don't know the details of this -- but similar examples are the problem with war
Mon Feb 16, 2015, 11:39 AM
Feb 2015

the noble intentions can be marketed very well, rescuing the people from the Viet Cong who were fighting leaders who seized power with a corrupt referendum. Operation Iraqi Freedom. ETC.

Elements of the military campaign take things to far. Distant Land of My Father tells a story about an American business in Shanghai and the book really sells Shanghai as like the greatest place on earth pre-war that never was the same, even in the 80's when it isn't like it was. He was locked away in a harsh prison by the Japanese, released than detained for years in harsh prison conditions by the Communists.

It didn't mention politics of the international & civil conflicts, just mentions rumors of Japanese aggression, bombs dropping, Japanese troops on what grounds they locked him away for.

Then mentions Communist take over, the grounds he was locked away over in brutal inhumane conditions. I can't oversell the vivid picture of pre-war Shanghai, the conditions, to how the prison was ran and guarded. Just offers a perspective not only of Shanghai & the prisons nearby before and since but also of LA during and post war because his daughter & wife were living there. Basically it tells a story of loss that can never be returned.

Massive unemployment & WWI resentments were key to Hitler's rise in power. While these debates reportedly rage on, I'm interested on the perspectives from those bombed and this is closest it comes in the article

Not everyone was convinced by city bombing. Numerous military and church leaders voiced strong opposition. Freemason Dyson, now one of Britain’s most eminent physicists, worked at Bomber Command from 1943-5. He said it eroded his moral beliefs until he had no moral position at all. He wanted to write about it, but then found the American novelist Kurt Vonnegut had said everything he wanted to say.

Like Gregg, Vonnegut had been a prisoner in Dresden that night. He claimed that only one person in the world derived any benefit from the slaughterhouse — him, because he wrote a famous book about it which pays him two or three dollars for every person killed.

Germany’s bombing of British cities was equally abhorrent. Germany dropped 35,000 tons on Britain over eight months in 1940-1 killing an estimated 39,000. (In total, the UK and US dropped around 1.9 million tons on Germany over 7 years.)

Bombing German cities clearly did have an impact on the war. The question, though, is how much. The post-war US Bombing Survey estimated that the effect of all allied city bombing probably depleted the German economy by no more than 2.7 per cent.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

I studied this a little some years ago MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #1
Köln was similarly flattened NYC_SKP Feb 2015 #3
Ever heard of Carthage? rjsquirrel Feb 2015 #11
Also rjsquirrel Feb 2015 #12
Dresden had over 100 factories jmowreader Feb 2015 #13
Shhhhh---don't mention inconvenient facts. MADem Feb 2015 #52
...^ that 840high Feb 2015 #68
Hitler was not democratically chosen tobe leader CreekDog Feb 2015 #126
No, he just showed up out of the blue, and everyone HATED him...not. MADem Feb 2015 #128
You either own your wrong comment or you disown it CreekDog Feb 2015 #138
Hey, you have a great day, now!!!! MADem Feb 2015 #139
I didn't put words in your mouth and you repaid that by putting words in mine CreekDog Feb 2015 #140
Hey, you have a great day, now!!! nt MADem Feb 2015 #141
A reason we flourished then was that WWII or "the peace" eliminated a lot of our competiton. merrily Feb 2015 #63
Why weren't they bombed then? former9thward Feb 2015 #90
The rail yards were more important to bomb, and they were the center of our attacks jmowreader Feb 2015 #92
The factories were in the suburbs - the bombers took out the city center. hedgehog Feb 2015 #135
That's my understanding too Sanity Claws Feb 2015 #15
Zeiss had most of it's manufacturing there Major Nikon Feb 2015 #16
Yet they were not targeted. former9thward Feb 2015 #91
Jena, where one of the Zeiss factories was built was bombed several times Major Nikon Feb 2015 #98
Funny how people try to justify what is now considered war crirmes. former9thward Feb 2015 #103
Even funnier how rjsquirrel Feb 2015 #104
Funny how people can't follow online conversations Major Nikon Feb 2015 #105
The typo police always on guard! former9thward Feb 2015 #115
Bobbing And Weaving! ProfessorGAC Feb 2015 #122
Ever heard of the 20-million Chinese killed during the Japanese occupation, or the 15 million leveymg Feb 2015 #59
Napalm was used a fair amount in WWII. During the American Civil war we came up with the idea of braddy Feb 2015 #4
Sherman's march to the sea MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #5
Oh, it didn't originate with us. aquart Feb 2015 #120
You might want to read C.P. Snow who explained how strategic bombing probably prolonged the war leveymg Feb 2015 #40
I love C.P. Snow MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #78
Extremely interesting. Thank you for posting this. Karmadillo Feb 2015 #89
In part, it was to serve as a warning to Stalin of the capabilities of Western air power. . . Journeyman Feb 2015 #2
same reason nuclear devices were dropped guillaumeb Feb 2015 #29
Not to mention, America's willingness to use them. leveymg Feb 2015 #54
whatever weapons are needed by the Empire guillaumeb Feb 2015 #60
Extinction is Us leveymg Feb 2015 #67
Another reason, and it kind of sucks... Wounded Bear Feb 2015 #6
interestingly the same process happened in the Korean War: they started to run out MisterP Feb 2015 #81
At that point in the war... Cali_Democrat Feb 2015 #7
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2015 #8
Slaughterhouse Five Lint Head Feb 2015 #9
I read it in high school burrowowl Feb 2015 #99
My dad had a book titled The Complete History of a WW ll. He must have acquired it in the late 40's or the early 50's mobeau69 Feb 2024 #143
Don't look for logic in war. McCamy Taylor Feb 2015 #10
Seriously? treestar Feb 2015 #14
Apparently, we've cycled through the other TexasMommaWithAHat Feb 2015 #21
seriously. Vietnam, Iraq, etc are there treestar Feb 2015 #25
Not everything posted is an attack against the US, at least to the non-paranoid DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2015 #26
you have to have USDS treestar Feb 2015 #28
The article indicates it was mostly British bombers involved CJCRANE Feb 2015 #32
Wow, even more absurd a discussion then treestar Feb 2015 #34
It was controversial at the time and there was disagreement about its effectiveness: CJCRANE Feb 2015 #39
Discussing that or anything at that time made some sense treestar Feb 2015 #42
Bombers involved gladium et scutum Feb 2015 #36
Thanks. See my post #39 about the origin of the policy and discussion of its effectiveness. nt CJCRANE Feb 2015 #41
I'd bet good money that I know a great deal more about that war than you do. DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2015 #37
That has to win the internet for absurdity today treestar Feb 2015 #43
You're trying misdirection. You lost. Enjoy your Sunday. DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2015 #44
If a declaration of "you lost" is all we need treestar Feb 2015 #48
If you need it spelled out... DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2015 #53
You you you treestar Feb 2015 #62
The one we're not supposed to be discussing, because treestar said so? DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2015 #65
It's Obama's fault!!! MADem Feb 2015 #58
thanks Obama! treestar Feb 2015 #66
You could, of course, notice that it's a British article muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #109
Might want to deep digger into our actions prior to WWII Lurks Often Feb 2015 #117
This is how we get away with murder whatchamacallit Feb 2015 #35
Like the Germans did, you mean? treestar Feb 2015 #46
Having difficultly parsing your post whatchamacallit Feb 2015 #55
No, I have a very cohesive thought treestar Feb 2015 #61
Glad to know whatchamacallit Feb 2015 #71
These deaths were right and good. So you have to stop talking about them now. nt DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2015 #75
Did you miss the part about civilian casualties being an hedgehog Feb 2015 #136
You're supposed to be angry.. Matrosov Feb 2015 #50
There must be a point where even terrorism is called for treestar Feb 2015 #56
"There must be a point where even terrorism is called for" So say terrorists everywhere. ND-Dem Feb 2015 #69
Yeah...like these terrorists! MADem Feb 2015 #74
thanks for making my point for me. ND-Dem Feb 2015 #77
Well, if I had any point to make, I suppose it would be that Dresden did have military MADem Feb 2015 #82
"There must be a point where even terrorism is called for" Rex Feb 2015 #97
First they came for the Communists JonLP24 Feb 2015 #123
First you eliminate the intellectuals and free thinkers Pooka Fey Feb 2015 #124
Yes, angry--isn't this AWFUL???? MADem Feb 2015 #70
I don't think anyone on this thread has said the bombing of London was an hedgehog Feb 2015 #137
When people suggest that the bombing of Dresden was unprovoked, had no military MADem Feb 2015 #142
Well you are lol...the rest of DU are supposed to talk about it and maybe have a discussion. Rex Feb 2015 #96
Um, war. Telcontar Feb 2015 #17
Went to Dresden back in 2004 GreatGazoo Feb 2015 #18
Not Quite... catnhatnh Feb 2015 #22
To stop the war Recursion Feb 2015 #19
So philosophical whatchamacallit Feb 2015 #31
There is a point where people are responsible for what their country does treestar Feb 2015 #38
Well whatchamacallit Feb 2015 #45
So you're not OK with that treestar Feb 2015 #47
And if it was your town whatchamacallit Feb 2015 #49
So you're criticizing Churchill for the decision? treestar Feb 2015 #51
Confused, what have you supported for the last ten to fifteen years? whatchamacallit Feb 2015 #57
You know what I'm talking about treestar Feb 2015 #64
You supported Bush's illegal wars? whatchamacallit Feb 2015 #72
I have to ask, are you being deliberately obtuse or genuinely mistaken Telcontar Feb 2015 #106
Huh? Recursion Feb 2015 #84
War is hell ... reasons for this rosesaylavee Feb 2015 #20
One of the premises of strategic bombing was break the will of the citizenry, Lurks Often Feb 2015 #23
I learned about that via fiction treestar Feb 2015 #27
Oh, are we asking why persons of non-military significance were burned? Please, carry on. Dreamer Tatum Feb 2015 #24
No, it wasn't tabasco Feb 2015 #30
Dresden was bombed because most people are willing to commit mass murder. Vattel Feb 2015 #33
As the granddaughter of a Nazi soldier, KitSileya Feb 2015 #73
26 German and 1 Polish assination attempts on Hitler over 10 years - this was a Resistance Pooka Fey Feb 2015 #86
WWII "Collateral damage" had a much broader interpretation Zambero Feb 2015 #76
Also "cannon fodder" was considered part and parcel of war. MADem Feb 2015 #79
I doubt much of that JonLP24 Feb 2015 #125
I am getting the sense you aren't taking the point I'm making. MADem Feb 2015 #129
This message was self-deleted by its author MADem Feb 2015 #129
This message was self-deleted by its author MADem Feb 2015 #129
This message was self-deleted by its author MADem Feb 2015 #129
This message was self-deleted by its author MADem Feb 2015 #129
Sorry, everyone--for some strange reason, my post repeated itself with the same post number MADem Feb 2015 #129
With 70 years passing, there are questions that can be asked Pooka Fey Feb 2015 #83
Bridges, rail hubs, and road junctions Telcontar Feb 2015 #107
I used to say that too, with deep conviction. Then I learned to speak French and hear their side Pooka Fey Feb 2015 #113
Those that should answer that are long gone PumpkinAle Feb 2015 #80
Because it was war, and that didn't stop Germany from attacking civilian still_one Feb 2015 #85
Google "Coventry." cwydro Feb 2015 #87
Seriously? Why did we bomb German cities? cheapdate Feb 2015 #88
US and Britain wanted to slow the Soviet advance on Berlin. Special Prosciuto Feb 2015 #93
No cause justifies the deaths of innocent people. Albert Camus Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2015 #94
Albert Camus is an idiot who wasnt responsible for the survival Telcontar Feb 2015 #108
Camus in French Resistance Intel unit "Combat" from 1941, & published a clandestine journal Pooka Fey Feb 2015 #114
No evidence he participated in any active resistance Telcontar Feb 2015 #116
Gathering Intel & disfusing it to Resistance & Allies made him an enemy combattant of Nazis Pooka Fey Feb 2015 #118
Why did we kill a million Iraqis in Iraq? Rex Feb 2015 #95
It is the same tactic General Sherman used in his burning of the South tblue37 Feb 2015 #100
Why did the Germans bomb London? n/t oneshooter Feb 2015 #101
In Memoriam Dresden - 1945 by Daniel Bukvich TexasTowelie Feb 2015 #102
To allow hind-sighters to cluck their tongues righteously 70 years after the fact. Orrex Feb 2015 #110
Why did Fighters Strafe fleeing civilians? One_Life_To_Give Feb 2015 #111
Bro we in the West are the biggest LIARs in history malaise Feb 2015 #112
Thank you for assuring me they suffered. aquart Feb 2015 #119
I don't know the details of this -- but similar examples are the problem with war JonLP24 Feb 2015 #121
Henry V Act 3 Nevernose Feb 2015 #127
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Dresden was a civilian to...»Reply #121