General Discussion

bemildred

(90,061 posts)

43. Yeah, I like this guy.

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 07:43 PM

Feb 2015

I'm not sure he is being entirely candid in his argument, but I agree firmly with his basic point, which is you don't just install utopia, you have to build it, over time, one brick on the next. A robust and free society will be complicated too, and unpredictable, creative, interesting, and it won't want or need much coercion.

And I think the point about how getting wrapped up in your own sense of entitlement and worth is the road to corruption is so right. I have gotten in big fights with myself over that more than once. The line between respect and due deference, and submission must be guarded well. There are always lots of people who want to be told what to do, and always that desire to get your way. You have to resist that.

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For the Marxists and Socialists at DU - Happy Tuesday - a most thoughtful read [View all] malaise Feb 2015 OP

The problem with this view......... socialist_n_TN Feb 2015 #1

That is a self destructive plan though - the bit about cutting wages and benefits for workers el_bryanto Feb 2015 #2

No it's definitely NOT a good plan, but it IS capitalism..... socialist_n_TN Feb 2015 #3

That's why you need a well regulated capitalism el_bryanto Feb 2015 #4

And now we come to the crux of the matter......... socialist_n_TN Feb 2015 #7

Well - I agree we are up against a wall, but it's a wall created by the myopia of capitalism el_bryanto Feb 2015 #8

Well ideally we can learn from our mistakes AND....... socialist_n_TN Feb 2015 #11

Even with all the interference and obstruction from the capitalist sector(s), the USSR still KingCharlemagne Feb 2015 #16

KingCharlemagne Diclotican Feb 2015 #20

That was a profound observation malaise Feb 2015 #46

It's tricky moving from a command economy to a more true socialism el_bryanto Feb 2015 #17

sorry to say but DonCoquixote Feb 2015 #34

"And I haven't seen much evidence of a working alternate system" TBF Feb 2015 #18

I think a well managed capitalism works. el_bryanto Feb 2015 #19

I think in saying that you ignore everyone it HASN'T worked for. F4lconF16 Feb 2015 #22

It works for the owners - TBF Feb 2015 #25

It would be easier just to get rid of this flawed system all together malaise Feb 2015 #10

I knew you would agree malaise........ socialist_n_TN Feb 2015 #12

I was thinking of you as I read it malaise Feb 2015 #13

Nice to be thought of comrade..... socialist_n_TN Feb 2015 #42

And replace it with what? Adrahil Feb 2015 #50

"capitalism CANNOT BE "STABILIZED" WITHOUT MASSIVE HARM TO THE WORKING CLASS." Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2015 #5

It's sorta like trying to "stabilize" or maybe "regulate" a cancer. Jackpine Radical Feb 2015 #51

Good point and NICELY said Jack...... socialist_n_TN Feb 2015 #53

Can you outline those changes? Adrahil Feb 2015 #55

I don't know about Jackpine, but I have some ideas....... socialist_n_TN Feb 2015 #66

There is a basic point about Capitalism that everyone seems to miss. Stonepounder Feb 2015 #6

My post #3 addresses this..... socialist_n_TN Feb 2015 #9

"If you can make 1 unit of profit on selling a widget and 3 units of profit trading paper... Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2015 #14

Well, that's the point though. NO one moves into the widget market...... socialist_n_TN Feb 2015 #68

If you can make 1 unit of profit on selling a widget and 3 units of profit trading paper, the laws o DonCoquixote Feb 2015 #35

Then the party needs to say that the people need food, clothing, shelter..... socialist_n_TN Feb 2015 #69

not quite DonCoquixote Feb 2015 #71

Quite right. These people need to read Keynes. Smart guy. Knew a thing or two. n/t Adrahil Feb 2015 #56

I think they understand it very well. It's the people who don't understand. Capitalism is just ND-Dem Feb 2015 #79

Thanks for a very thoughtful read. mountain grammy Feb 2015 #15

And we're all still reaping the madness of Reagan and Thatcher malaise Feb 2015 #38

malaise Diclotican Feb 2015 #21

Well said. nt. Yorktown Feb 2015 #24

Look when it appeared to be working it was at the expense of minorities malaise Feb 2015 #26

malaise Diclotican Feb 2015 #28

THoughtful post - I hope you're right malaise Feb 2015 #36

malaise Diclotican Feb 2015 #40

That will be true for as long as Obama remains President malaise Feb 2015 #41

malaise Diclotican Feb 2015 #70

You are correct. nt bemildred Feb 2015 #63

Radicalism is a dead end. Controlled Capitalism is th way to go. Yorktown Feb 2015 #23

I think the best thinker on this subject is Ellen Meiksins Wood malaise Feb 2015 #27

Greece is in an economic and poitical meltdown Yorktown Feb 2015 #60

Over 90% of the funds to "bailout" Greece went to the banks.... socialist_n_TN Feb 2015 #65

Your point banks did not lose is wrong. Yorktown Feb 2015 #72

Giving you that your assertions are correct ........ socialist_n_TN Feb 2015 #77

I will ask you the same question I asked the other capitalist TBF Feb 2015 #31

+1,000 malaise Feb 2015 #37

Speaking about addressing the GINI....... socialist_n_TN Feb 2015 #49

Yup; still wanna talk Yorktown Feb 2015 #61

Cuba has done pretty well for a little island TBF Feb 2015 #64

Cuba and Venezuela are disasters Yorktown Feb 2015 #73

Thanks for that stunning assessment Eugene TBF Feb 2015 #74

ROFL, thanks for the laughs. Have some data. Yorktown Feb 2015 #75

Your "data" consists of pointing out profits of the owners - TBF Feb 2015 #76

facts prove Castro and Chavez were bad leaders Yorktown Feb 2015 #78

I'm really not statist so it's not TBF Feb 2015 #82

We probably have lots of common ground, but not the Paris Commune Yorktown Feb 2015 #83

lol re Paris Commune TBF Feb 2015 #84

Thanks, I was looking for that. bemildred Feb 2015 #29

You're welcome malaise Feb 2015 #30

And I can see I agree already. bemildred Feb 2015 #32

Yeah, I like this guy. bemildred Feb 2015 #43

That sectionabout having to check his own sense of entitlement and worth malaise Feb 2015 #45

KnR Excellent Discussion 2banon Feb 2015 #33

I don't think I'll be around for the change either malaise Feb 2015 #39

I was actually cheering on the collapse in 2008. 2banon Feb 2015 #57

I usually bring up the Venus Project - TBF Feb 2015 #44

Thanks.. 2banon Feb 2015 #58

imo fresco's resume reads more like some kind of intelligence asset than anything else. ND-Dem Feb 2015 #80

Very astute comment - TBF Feb 2015 #81

How is the regulated capitalism v. letting it collapse econ talk related to the EU's collapse? ancianita Feb 2015 #47

Erratic response to an erratic Marxist?...... socialist_n_TN Feb 2015 #48

... ancianita Feb 2015 #52

That's what he called himself...... socialist_n_TN Feb 2015 #54

Okay, didn't know. But he's also too abstract to inform about an alleged imminent EU collapse. ancianita Feb 2015 #59

Is Gramsci neo-Marxist? n/t malaise Feb 2015 #62

Gramsci wasn't trepidatiously writing in the context of an EU collapse. ancianita Feb 2015 #67