Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
 

Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
159. I think it's obvious that Russia is supporting the Rebels.
Sat Feb 21, 2015, 04:21 PM
Feb 2015

I'm a man with twenty years experience in the Transportation field. I know a bit about logistics. Napoleon said that an army marched on its stomach. That was true when marching was the main means of transportation, and the rifle ruled the battlefield. Today, it's tanks. Tanks don't march on food, they float on a sea of diesel fuel. For example, the T-62 tank has a range of about 280 miles on roads on one tank of fuel. That is more than 100 gallons of fuel. So figure they're getting about two miles per gallon. If you have five tanks, that means you need a tanker truck every two hundred miles to move those tanks, or at least once a day for local operational needs. Thousands of gallons of fuel when you include trucks and vehicles for the soldiers to move with the tanks.

So where are the rebels getting thousands of gallons of diesel fuel every single day to keep the trucks and tanks mobile? They're not buying it from the local gas stations. They're not stealing it in sufficient quantities to keep going. Someone is supplying them. There are a finite number of someones who can, or would do it. On the eastern edge of Ukraine, there is only one viable suspect.

Tanks look amazingly strong, but in truth they're rather fragile. They have lots of parts that wear out often. Tracks for example, the metal links wear out rapidly holding up the massive weight of a tank. The rubber shoes wear out even faster. Those tracks require servicing to repair and replace worn items. That means a logistical pipeline bringing parts in so experienced mechanics can repair the vehicles. Since they are tanks built in Russia, there aren't many places you can get a good supply of parts. You basically have to use Russian parts and there is again that only one suspect. I suppose you could use some Chinese parts since they've built most of that equipment under license, but the Chinese would have to transport the parts across Russia to deliver them to the Ukraine. So Russia would be involved anyway.

Ammunition for the soldiers. A soldier can go through a couple hundred rounds in less than a day. If you have ten soldiers, that is two thousand rounds. If you have a hundred soldiers fighting, that is twenty thousand rounds of ammunition, or a lot of weight, and a lot of ammunition. Where are the rebels getting all that ammo? Someone is supplying them. They're not ordering it online and awaiting the arrival of Fed Ex. Even if they captured a military base with millions of rounds of ammo, they would burn through that in a month or two.

By comparison, the US Military was using 1.8 billion rounds of ammunition per year during the height of the Iraq war. http://www.omgfacts.com/lists/5347/An-estimated-250-000-bullets-are-used-per-insurgent-killed-in-Iraq-and-Afghanistan

Think about that for a moment. 1.8 billion rounds of ammunition per year. That required a steady stream of ammunition flowing into the combat zone. Trucks moving every day with more bullets to shoot. Even if the Rebels are using a fraction of the ammo the Military was using in Iraq, you are still left with a lot of bullets to move around.

Winter in Eastern Europe is not a day at the beach. It's bitterly cold. History tells us about the difficulties faced by both the Nazi's and Napolean's armies wintering in Russia. The ukraine is not much better. Cold means you need heat. Fires at the most basic level, which means chopping down trees in time to let them season to burn. Oil or diesel fired stoves, gasoline powered stoves. In other words, more fuel for the troops.

Shall I touch on food. Let's say that each soldier is eating a pound of food a day. Combat is a very active time, and you could easily need that much food, back to Napoleon's marching on the stomach thing. What that means is if you have a hundred soldiers, you need a hundred pounds of food every single day. Then you have the civilian population to feed. If you let them starve, they'll no longer support you. If you let them freeze, they'll no longer back you and will side with whoever can give them food, and warmth for their children.

So even the most basic examinations of the logistical demands of an army fighting a mechanized urban warfare model requires that someone is supporting the Rebels. The list of suspects is astonishingly short. Basically, there is one suspect available with the materials the Rebels need, and the ability to transport it to the Rebels.

So the denials of the Russians that they are supporting the Ukrainian Rebellion fails the most basic smell tests. It's a lie. Why would they do that? Why would they expend that kind of treasure on an area? Prestige? Regional power? The why is more complex, but obviously they are. Now, why would a Left leaning Liberal like myself want to support someone who is lying about their actions? If Russia said we are doing this because we want the Ukrainian people to be free I'd look askance at them. Russia does not have a long history of trying to free an oppressed people.

So no, common sense tells me that the Russians are in this thing up to their necks. I don't know if that includes active support from their military, in other words Russian soldiers fighting. I do know that there must be active support on the Logistical front because there is no other explanation for the continued ability of the Rebels to fight. If they were working off of captured materials, they could fight a Guerrilla action, but not urban warfare using tanks, trucks, and foot soldiers.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Only fascist assholes support Putin's despotic regime. geek tragedy Feb 2015 #1
All bun. No beef. Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #2
Russia is a fascist oligarchy, a mafia state where critics of geek tragedy Feb 2015 #3
Your pantry overflows with insult rubbed tripe...impressive. Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #6
I do not worry about offending fans of foreign dictators. nt geek tragedy Feb 2015 #7
The black hat versus the white hat world view is not uncommon. No worries. Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #8
Hey if you're cool with fascism and bigotry you are geek tragedy Feb 2015 #9
Well, yes; in the past 24 hours your accusations about me have included: muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #50
what's odd is that Obama and Putin are pretty much enemies at this point nt geek tragedy Feb 2015 #66
All you are doing is switching the hats. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #68
This thread advocates a black hat vs white hat world view. Adrahil Feb 2015 #130
Oppressive and homophobic dictators Renew Deal Feb 2015 #17
Shadows of the former Mugabe fan club. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #30
And the Kim's Renew Deal Feb 2015 #37
Really? How do you feel about all of our dictator allies? I despise dictators, like the Saudis, eg, sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #135
Those are different, they are "pragmatic" leaders incrementally working for truth, justice, and the TheKentuckian Feb 2015 #181
I guess the Rubles keep you happy HERVEPA Feb 2015 #26
Indeed they do. Thousands of rubles per post, it is a living! Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #28
With the Russian economy tanking, I hope he's paying you enough. HERVEPA Feb 2015 #43
are you asking us to support Russia's anti-LGBT laws? CreekDog Feb 2015 #62
Putin is a dictator. That's all I need to know about him. DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2015 #24
+1000. Russia under Dictator Putin is a dictatorship and NO Leftists should support BlueCaliDem Feb 2015 #11
This message was self-deleted by its author KingCharlemagne Feb 2015 #25
That's about it. Daemonaquila Feb 2015 #32
where is this 'decent, progressive society' you speak of? ND-Dem Feb 2015 #48
Hi! Points to Dem. nt geek tragedy Feb 2015 #49
didn't answer the question. ND-Dem Feb 2015 #51
LOL, that rings a Bell! FSogol Feb 2015 #69
Maybe you could post some pics of smiling Russians? nt msanthrope Feb 2015 #52
also didn't answer the question. ND-Dem Feb 2015 #53
Answer your questions? I'll pass. nt msanthrope Feb 2015 #58
Pyongyang. I thought you knew that? NuclearDem Feb 2015 #59
Just like Baltimore. nt geek tragedy Feb 2015 #64
Hey. Baltimore's got a great mayor. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #70
There's a history behind Baltimore geek tragedy Feb 2015 #73
yeah, and what does Stringer Bell have to say about that ... kwassa Feb 2015 #125
Correction... zappaman Feb 2015 #72
Russia does not want support from LGBT people, if they did they would not oppress our Russian Bluenorthwest Feb 2015 #4
LGBT issues are just barely "tolerated" here.. got a Looooong, long way to go before there is actual 2banon Feb 2015 #109
Oh, what a bunch of horseshit. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #131
What exactly reads like "horseshit" to you? 2banon Feb 2015 #145
Alright, point by point. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #147
Excellent post. zappaman Feb 2015 #150
Devastating! Behind the Aegis Feb 2015 #171
Some stats - which show USA is much better, and getting better, and Russia is getting worse muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #155
Don't tell the far-right in Europe. They totally support Russia and don't consider it 'liberal'. pampango Feb 2015 #5
Russian cash will allow Marine Le Pen’s Front National to take advantage of rivals’ woes.... Bluenorthwest Feb 2015 #18
Also the far right here in the USA FLPanhandle Feb 2015 #36
Not true Cayenne Feb 2015 #90
Many half-witted idiots wish everyone would support the expansionist dreams of New Russia LanternWaste Feb 2015 #10
Oh of course! HappyMe Feb 2015 #13
A citizen of a country with 800+ military bases around the world calls another-- eridani Feb 2015 #31
It wasn't Russia back then. geek tragedy Feb 2015 #33
First of all, that the US is an expansionist and imperialist power NuclearDem Feb 2015 #35
O.M.G. Talk about giant heaps of "horsehit" (to use YOUR term)...LOL! 2banon Feb 2015 #146
Did you ever take a logic course in high school or college? NuclearDem Feb 2015 #148
To Wrap This Up. The TWISTED LOGIC employed in the context of East-West Imperialistic powers 2banon Feb 2015 #156
You must have me confused with somebody else. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #158
"Russia is actually contractionist" bobclark86 Feb 2015 #63
Evidence of plans to recolonize Poland, East Germany, etc? eridani Feb 2015 #138
Baby steps. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #149
How about Georgia and UKRAINE?!?! n/t bobclark86 Feb 2015 #153
If only that contractionism applied to Ukraine. nt Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #71
so, so far in 10-20 years the mighty expansionist Russkies have managed to grab Crimea MisterP Feb 2015 #170
Yes, of course Crimea was "by the vote of the people" Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #178
The discussions of Crimea which conveniently fail to mention the mass deportation of the indigenous Bluenorthwest Mar 2015 #225
Well, I'm not a Leftist, but I AM a Liberal and I DO believe in democracy... BlueCaliDem Feb 2015 #12
Oh, fuck off Draitser. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #14
The reactions in this thread give me hope BainsBane Feb 2015 #203
It's like the Tea Party. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #206
Anybody who defends leftynyc Feb 2015 #15
ROFL, looked up "Eric Draitser", what a piece snooper2 Feb 2015 #16
Post removed Post removed Feb 2015 #19
The humiliating defeat of the Candyman at DeBaltsevo has showed the KingCharlemagne Feb 2015 #23
There are still a thousand or so left behind hiding in the town...the rebels have shown mercy while the Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #27
I don't understand why your post above was hidden. Comrade Grumpy Feb 2015 #168
Wow. That's some industrial grade horseshit right there. Throd Feb 2015 #20
I don't understand it either... Dr Hobbitstein Feb 2015 #21
Authoritarians. Same crowd that insists that Assad's regime was framed on chemical weapons, geek tragedy Feb 2015 #22
"Authoritarians"? I'm so confused by DU. Hekate Feb 2015 #161
Projection. Those who support/serve as apologists for Putink Gaddhafi, Assad, Maduro, etc geek tragedy Feb 2015 #173
There is a difference between "Leftists" and Liberal. William769 Feb 2015 #29
Very true communists in the former USSR were not liberals. Rex Feb 2015 #34
"leftists" in my book are just like communists. William769 Feb 2015 #39
Me either, they proved that an agrarian based society with a centralized government won't work. Rex Feb 2015 #40
Agreed on all counts. William769 Feb 2015 #41
The author of the OP is using the term "Leftist" simply as "Anti-Establishment" Maedhros Feb 2015 #55
Yup. Behind the Aegis Feb 2015 #140
The only thing lefties should be doing, is denouncing Russia as a backwards state. Rex Feb 2015 #38
Seeing Russia as capatilist and revanchist isn't an "ideological posture." cemaphonic Feb 2015 #42
The Putin boot-lickers are a fucking disgrace to DU...nt SidDithers Feb 2015 #44
Agreed. eom MohRokTah Feb 2015 #47
True. They are worse than the chemtrail nonsense. FSogol Feb 2015 #93
+1 joshcryer Feb 2015 #136
A point. A definite point. nt Hekate Feb 2015 #162
3 Reasons Why Leftists Should Attack Russia | New KamaAina Outlook KamaAina Feb 2015 #45
DUzy! nt Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #75
Yeah, it is. Behind the Aegis Feb 2015 #139
I'm getting to the point of wanting to hit something. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #152
I know the feeling! Behind the Aegis Feb 2015 #172
Most of those would also fit ISIS. ileus Feb 2015 #46
Why this leftist refuses.: Russia's Anti-Gay Law, Spelled Out in Plain English Agnosticsherbet Feb 2015 #54
Russia's anti-women laws. Agnosticsherbet Feb 2015 #57
So, MattSh - what is your motivation for posting this OP? Maedhros Feb 2015 #56
Putin apology, plain and simple. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #76
Oh, so I need a motivation now? MattSh Feb 2015 #77
Ah. Now I understand. Maedhros Feb 2015 #83
Don't go away mad... just go away you mean? MattSh Feb 2015 #87
That would suit many of us. Ethnonationalism is frowned upon here. geek tragedy Feb 2015 #100
Contrary to what you've might been told, the purpose of DU isn't to shit all over the USA. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #85
"the purpose of DU isn't to shit all over the USA." Number23 Feb 2015 #106
Thank you Hekate Feb 2015 #164
Thank you Hekate Feb 2015 #163
Piss poor social programs in the US does not constitute suppression of rights. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #94
Thank you Hekate Feb 2015 #165
Wow. That's a doozy. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #60
You'd be surprised how many folks on this planet share this view malaise Feb 2015 #61
The world has another superpower, it's called China. Russia as currently constituted has no geek tragedy Feb 2015 #65
Being contrarian can only get you so far. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #67
The world doesn't need any superpowers. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #96
No thanks. I'm good with not doing that. nt Guy Whitey Corngood Feb 2015 #74
This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Feb 2015 #78
The Cold War is over, buddy. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #79
Maybe he was rooting for team USSR back in the day. Throd Feb 2015 #80
This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Feb 2015 #86
This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Feb 2015 #84
If he's not your buddy, then why did you call him "buddy"? zappaman Feb 2015 #124
The Putin boot-lickers speak with just1voice... SidDithers Feb 2015 #82
What a website - a Russian self-proclaimed partner of the far right anti-semitic 'Veterans Today' muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #81
I'm proud of being a DUer when I see how few are taken in by this garbage. stevenleser Feb 2015 #88
Much like the Tea Party, Putin apology is a noisy fringe minority here at DU. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #91
I love the section about "Defending Historical Memory" Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #89
And the implication that building economic and diplomatic ties to Ukraine (and elsewhere in E Europe cemaphonic Feb 2015 #92
It reminds of how right wingers used to shit all over France NuclearDem Feb 2015 #95
FDR was in an alliance w Stalin because - pragmatism arendt Feb 2015 #97
Ho boy. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #99
I never said defend Russia, I said let them do our work. arendt Feb 2015 #104
"I think the Ukrainians are Nazis funded by US neocon Nazis." Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #114
See Right Sector. See Bandera. See Ukr govt. arendt Feb 2015 #115
Psst. Right Sector isn't part of the Ukrainian government. Never was, actually. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #116
So the Russian-speakers in Novorussia, how do they fit... arendt Feb 2015 #120
Not sure what your ultimate argument/endgame is here. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #174
Do you not read what I write? arendt Feb 2015 #179
Funny thing. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #187
It's easy to be consistent when you're telling the truth arendt Feb 2015 #192
This message was self-deleted by its author arendt Feb 2015 #197
Self-delete is your friend. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #204
Yes. What happened with Maidan was not a coup, period. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #198
The CIA has been running coups since 1953 arendt Feb 2015 #214
If you have actual evidence that what happened in Ukraine was a coup, bring it. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #216
I will leave the last 10,000 words to you. arendt Feb 2015 #217
So in short, your answer is no. No, you don't have any evidence to support.... Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #218
Here's some IMF "evidence". Its the looting, stupid. arendt Feb 2015 #222
You get points for creativity, but that's about it. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2015 #223
This message was self-deleted by its author arendt Feb 2015 #196
So, again... NuclearDem Feb 2015 #118
Right. It's all so simple. Not. arendt Feb 2015 #119
Wow, glad to see your true colors finally fly. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #121
NO. I have priorities. Stopping neocons is #1. arendt Feb 2015 #122
Yeah, because you can't work to fix both anti-LGBT discrimination NuclearDem Feb 2015 #123
If the way to fix it is to start WW3 w Russia, count me out n/t arendt Feb 2015 #128
Oh for...this is getting old. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #133
Yeah, this idea that defending Putin is bravely standing up for peace cemaphonic Feb 2015 #134
Yeah, who gives a fuck about LGBTs in the Ukraine anyway? zappaman Feb 2015 #126
yeah, who gives a shit about neocon warmongers burning our taxes. arendt Feb 2015 #127
This post boils down to (1) Russia's government is awesome; and (2) the USA is inherently evil. geek tragedy Feb 2015 #101
Absolute bullshit plus name-calling arendt Feb 2015 #102
You're the one endorsing an article that calls for leftists to line up against their own country and geek tragedy Feb 2015 #107
Does anyone remember history? Putin is a spy and a gangster, not a Nazi. arendt Feb 2015 #108
No one is advocating war with Russia. But this article is stating leftists should 'support' Putin. geek tragedy Feb 2015 #110
I never said support him. I just said let it alone. arendt Feb 2015 #112
Well, you did "like" the OP.... Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #177
Its a long post that contains SOME good ideas. arendt Feb 2015 #180
Exactly how have I taken the "Curtis LeMay position"? Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #182
To quote you, what is your endgame here? arendt Feb 2015 #193
All I've ever done is demand that facts be presented, and not unsupported conspiracy theories. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #200
Dang. Replied to myself. This is to alert you to look. n/t arendt Feb 2015 #194
This message was self-deleted by its author arendt Feb 2015 #195
It is dishonest of you to characterize a rejection of the OP's call for supporting Russia as a call Bluenorthwest Feb 2015 #111
Looks like "sarcasm" has gone the way of "nuance" arendt Feb 2015 #113
So you post bullshit and when called on it you get snarky. How impressive. Bluenorthwest Mar 2015 #224
L-O-Fuckin'-L...That blogger must have nothing but rainbows and unicorns in his world Blue_Tires Feb 2015 #98
So Putin could USE us to steal ANOTHER 100billion from Russia? blm Feb 2015 #103
Fuck that, to put it politely. Quantess Feb 2015 #105
The only group that should defend Russia is the Westboro Baptist Church! NutmegYankee Feb 2015 #117
Oh for fuck's sake.... Adrahil Feb 2015 #129
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2015 #132
Freedom Fries! nt CJCRANE Feb 2015 #141
Looks like the "hate Russia" propaganda is full tilt Ramses Feb 2015 #137
"Leftists"* shouldn't defend Putin or the war profiteers. CJCRANE Feb 2015 #142
This thread showcases why some 'leftists' are fucking awful hypocrites. Drunken Irishman Feb 2015 #143
Also, these pro-Putin assholes aren't on the first flight to Russia to live in that paradise. Drunken Irishman Feb 2015 #144
I almost agree NuclearDem Feb 2015 #151
This message was self-deleted by its author CJCRANE Feb 2015 #157
Really. damn the hypocrisy.. thanks for pointing that out, DI. Not purists when it comes to human Cha Feb 2015 #184
I'm with the majority of Europeans Depaysement Feb 2015 #154
I think it's obvious that Russia is supporting the Rebels. Savannahmann Feb 2015 #159
Homophobic laws. Anti-Semitism. Mysogyny. Prison for Pussy Riot. Expansionism. Hekate Feb 2015 #160
Reading the full article, the only real reason presented to "support Russia" salib Feb 2015 #166
....is this supposed to be a joke? Warren DeMontague Feb 2015 #167
Sadly, a few people here don't see it as a joke. nt Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #175
The Putin apologists have been all over this site for some time now BainsBane Feb 2015 #205
LOL. If Russia under Putin is anti-imperialist, then Adolf Hitler is a champion of religious freedom Downtown Hound Feb 2015 #169
Translation: You MUST support Russia because you cannot possibly side with the US "empire". DetlefK Feb 2015 #176
" " " " n/t MBS Feb 2015 #183
I see no reason to SUPPORT a bigoted, authoritarian, gangster capitalist government TheKentuckian Feb 2015 #185
I imagine this thread has likely derailed a long time ago JonLP24 Feb 2015 #186
Turnout in the past two elections was lower in the East for a pretty glaring reason. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #188
I hate when my browser crashes during a post JonLP24 Feb 2015 #189
There was no way around the issue, though. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #190
They initiated the whole fleeing the country thing JonLP24 Feb 2015 #191
Continuation of discussion in locked thread BainsBane Feb 2015 #199
The OP's current state of residence clearly has zero influence over his opinion of his neighbors. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #201
He cited it to validate his views BainsBane Feb 2015 #202
Ethnonationalism is really its own ideology. The Putin loyalists are not left or right, just geek tragedy Feb 2015 #207
There's some Orwellian doublespeak if I ever heard it. PoliticalPothead Feb 2015 #208
When has Russia hinted about it's desire to annex the Ukraine? BainsBane Feb 2015 #209
More propaganda. PoliticalPothead Feb 2015 #210
What did the article say? BainsBane Feb 2015 #213
Buddy. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #211
Not to mention the fact the UN has procedures for independence votes BainsBane Feb 2015 #215
Leftists are not fascist bigots, so it just boggles the mind why a leftist would defend William769 Feb 2015 #212
I suppose this post is marginally better Codeine Feb 2015 #219
Come on, you know he wouldn't do tha--oh yeah, he did. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #221
Don't fret. Putin has support from the far right BainsBane Feb 2015 #220
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»5 Reasons Why Leftists Sh...»Reply #159